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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/26/2007 11:49:31 AM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I was working up in Alaska the year a man shot and killed the largest Grizzly Bear ever recorded.  This bear standing on it's hind legs was 13 and some odd feet tall.  In other words, it could stand up and look over the roof of your house.

This bear attacked him while he was out hiking, and he dropped it with a .44 Automag semi-automatic pistol with, if I remember correctly, hollow point ammunition.  Took him 5 shots to get it to stop charging, and the 6th shot into the brain at the base of the skull to kill it.

The grizzly bear had 4 recent rounds from a .38 in its chest, as well as a partially digested human in it's belly.

If I remember right, it was taken and stuffed / mounted and is on display at the airport in Anchorage.

Sinergy


One of my favorite urban legends which invariably resurfaces every 18 months or so...

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/forum/forum_comments/1871/

This is what actually happened...

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/bearhunt.asp


When it comes to bear defense, a .44 magnum is the minimum acceptable caliber (like a .32  used on a human in heavy winter clothes). I'd be a little nervous with a black bear, but a grizzly? All bets are off with a handgun at all.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/26/2007 3:04:02 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

When it comes to bear defense, a .44 magnum is the minimum acceptable caliber (like a .32  used on a human in heavy winter clothes). I'd be a little nervous with a black bear, but a grizzly? All bets are off with a handgun at all.


I've heard of some successes against brown bears with exotic pieces ... most notably the Wildey .475's.  Not that I'd recommend that at all, but if I had to bring a handgun for bear defense, that's definitely the one I'd have in mind.  Hopefully after next year my primary defense piece will be the new Magpul Masada.  Have you taken a look at that one yet?

-Sicarius

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/26/2007 4:01:08 PM   
Pulpsmack


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It has "sex appeal" but it doesn't seem like it would get the job done any better than "blinged out" M4 would. That and folding stocks aren't friendly to lefties. That said, Magpul is a great manufacturer that generally listens to the wishes of its clients when it designs a product. I would like to give them more money, but given the political climate these days, all $ has to go into the firearms themselves instead of accessories.

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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/26/2007 4:32:14 PM   
Sicarius


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Yes, it's definitely a very sexy rifle.  I've been a fan of the FN SCAR for a while, and was pleased to see the similarities between it and the Masada.  It appears to be pretty sound ergonomically with the exception of the stock issue you mentioned and the high position of the charging handle, which concerns me a little.

I'm curious to see what approach they take with the folding stock.  I do believe it is removable, even if not the most eloquent of solutions.  I own a few Magpul accessories that I've been extremely impressed with ... that's probably the primary motivator I have in looking at the rifle.  That, and I'm very curious about their gas piston assembly.

A buddy of mine was at the SHOT Show 2007 and said the ineternals were slick.  Tight and smooth.  I'm going to be very curious to see how it pans out under torture testing, which will probably be the final factor in whether or not I go ahead and preorder one this Fall.

-Sicarius

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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/26/2007 5:21:11 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

In today's LA Times, there's an op ed by James Q. Wilson called "Gun Control Isn't the Answer" (it's actually titled "In Defense of Guns" in my copy of the print edition).  Two interesting quotes:

Quote 1
"If we want to guess by how much the U.S. murder rate would fall if civilians had no guns, we should begin by realizing — as criminologists Franklin Zimring and Gordon Hawkins have shown — that the non-gun homicide rate in this country is three times higher than the non-gun homicide rate in England. For historical and cultural reasons, Americans are a more violent people than the English, even when they can't use a gun. This fact sets a floor below which the murder rate won't be reduced even if, by some constitutional or political miracle, we became gun-free."

Quote 2
"AS FOR THE European disdain for our criminal culture, many of those countries should not spend too much time congratulating themselves. In 2000, the rate at which people were robbed or assaulted was higher in England, Scotland, Finland, Poland, Denmark and Sweden than it was in the United States. The assault rate in England was twice that in the United States. In the decade since England banned all private possession of handguns, the BBC reported that the number of gun crimes has gone up sharply.

Some of the worst examples of mass gun violence have also occurred in Europe. In recent years, 17 students and teachers were killed by a shooter in one incident at a German public school; 14 legislators were shot to death in Switzerland, and eight city council members were shot to death near Paris."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-wilson20apr20,0,4514008.story?coll=la-opinion-center



You have a rather contrasting argument.  You pose one as leading the US as a favorable nation as to this issue, yet another castigating those within our borders.

I suspect you're seeking an argument...in as much as some comments, pro and con (you've made a few).  Possibly some personal opinions?

I have many and they're contrasting.  My opinions debate themselves.

I don't like guns.  At all.  I went to a military school (you might imagine we had to shoot a few). 

I escaped the requirement for going to this particular class (having been the singularly worst shot in the entire school in 10th grade) by my second semester in my freshman year going to visit the Head Master ("The Colonel") and suggesting to him "if I hit Sharpshooter by April (Progression: Marksman {the lowest category}, Sharpshooter, Crack Shot) , would you allow me to not attend this class?" (note that, in the entire 112 year history of this school, no one had ever been allowed to do so previously)...and he said...."Son...if you can even hit MARKSMAN in 3 months....you've got a deal".

I was 4 points below "Crack Shot" when those 3 months arrived.  And I never picked up a gun again.

I hate guns.  I don't like the sound of them....I attended a gun class 6 years ago to see if it was just all about being young....and I can tell you honestly....

I fucking hate guns.

I don't want them anywhere near my house.  I don't want to shop in stores that have them, or be around those that might.

I don't like them.

I don't want to listen to people tell me how fabulous they are, or how they shot some really large animal in Montana "and if you'll come round here...you can see the head....shall we play some pool?"

I hate guns.

And I know right down to my soul that the very reason we have people that can sleep at night in all kinds of places all over this country...is because every sick fuck that wants to crash into my house at 3 in the morning and steal my dope, or see if I have $1,500.00 stashed in 100's under my cribbage game, is thinking...."does he...or doesn't he?".

I still (really) fucking hate guns.

< Message edited by Griswold -- 4/26/2007 5:49:13 PM >

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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/26/2007 7:44:43 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I was working up in Alaska the year a man shot and killed the largest Grizzly Bear ever recorded.  This bear standing on it's hind legs was 13 and some odd feet tall.  In other words, it could stand up and look over the roof of your house.

This bear attacked him while he was out hiking, and he dropped it with a .44 Automag semi-automatic pistol with, if I remember correctly, hollow point ammunition.  Took him 5 shots to get it to stop charging, and the 6th shot into the brain at the base of the skull to kill it.

The grizzly bear had 4 recent rounds from a .38 in its chest, as well as a partially digested human in it's belly.

If I remember right, it was taken and stuffed / mounted and is on display at the airport in Anchorage.

Sinergy


One of my favorite urban legends which invariably resurfaces every 18 months or so...

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/forum/forum_comments/1871/

This is what actually happened...

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/bearhunt.asp


When it comes to bear defense, a .44 magnum is the minimum acceptable caliber (like a .32  used on a human in heavy winter clothes). I'd be a little nervous with a black bear, but a grizzly? All bets are off with a handgun at all.


Those are not the pictures I saw in the local paper up in Alaska, but ok.

Sinergy

p.s.  Sure, a huge bore rifle is a better gun to take down a grizzly, but a handgun is a lot easier to aim at a moving target in close quarters.


_____________________________

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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/26/2007 8:54:44 PM   
popeye1250


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Gris, if you don't like guns fine, then don't have one.
I don't think anyone would "force" one on you.

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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/26/2007 9:04:45 PM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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Well this is America, you have the right not to own a firearm just as we have the right to own as many as we want.MY number NOW is around 50 both short and long guns,IF some one jumped your ass call 911 and see how that helps.I know I can have mine out in a NY second and eliminate that problem...IF you took all the weapons of the every day folks,law abiding citizens that just gives the thugs Free reign..just my piece and I an sticking too it..bounty

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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/26/2007 9:30:21 PM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

I hate guns.  I don't like the sound of them....I attended a gun class 6 years ago to see if it was just all about being young....and I can tell you honestly....

I fucking hate guns.

I don't want them anywhere near my house.  I don't want to shop in stores that have them, or be around those that might.

I don't like them.



This happens to be the big argument against. Some people hate them as irrational as it is to hate a piece of metal, they do. There is no point arguing with someone's fear, or hatred, and I am perfectly content to leave any such person to their phobias and angst... so long as those fears that control their lives don't spill over into mine.  

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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/26/2007 9:54:09 PM   
BlackKnight


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Gris you sounded like a Dr. Seuss story

I don't like handguns, gris I am
I don't like themn will not like them, gris I am

anyway, You sound like a very quallified gun user, and I salute you for you dilligence in obtaining mastery, especially with something you dispise.
God bless this country and our founding fathers for the definition of our rights. We have the right to keep and bear arms, that being said you have the right not to keep and bear arms.
They can't force a gun into your hand while your a free citizen. At the same time free american citizen (ones who haven't committed a felony) have the right to have or not have a gun.

ok, so you know that. It's just that I 'heard' the anger/frustration in your post, which leads to another right...
We have a freedom of speach (limited), We also have the right to ignore, and there is alot of this going on.
I had the right to stop reading your post, I had the right to not post this. (collarme gave me permission to read and post on their site)
I choose the red pill. ( did Neo think about his third choice< just say no, and not pop any pills?)
you may not want you neighbors to have guns, well tough nuggies switch to your other option: IGNORE.
If the store sell guns, leave.
if you don't like my post, stop reading it, ignore, or grab the red pill and rebuttle.

_____________________________

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Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense, Scribner's, 1905, page 284"
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Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me!

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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/26/2007 10:10:01 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

I hate guns.  I don't like the sound of them....I attended a gun class 6 years ago to see if it was just all about being young....and I can tell you honestly....

I fucking hate guns.

I don't want them anywhere near my house.  I don't want to shop in stores that have them, or be around those that might.

I don't like them.



This happens to be the big argument against. Some people hate them as irrational as it is to hate a piece of metal, they do. There is no point arguing with someone's fear, or hatred, and I am perfectly content to leave any such person to their phobias and angst... so long as those fears that control their lives don't spill over into mine.  


[smartass]

Give up now, Pulpsmack.  I tried the "I dont care as long as your shit doesnt spill over into my life" approach on the smoking ban thread and apparently the idea is an illogical, irrational, and erroneous concept for a person to have.

[/smartass]

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/27/2007 1:07:24 AM   
GoddessDustyGold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack


This happens to be the big argument against. Some people hate them as irrational as it is to hate a piece of metal, they do. There is no point arguing with someone's fear, or hatred, and I am perfectly content to leave any such person to their phobias and angst... so long as those fears that control their lives don't spill over into mine.  


[smartass]

Give up now, Pulpsmack.  I tried the "I dont care as long as your shit doesnt spill over into my life" approach on the smoking ban thread and apparently the idea is an illogical, irrational, and erroneous concept for a person to have.

[/smartass]

Sinergy


Ah, Sinergy..in your zeal, you forgot that the thread was  Are you selective in your stance on "Bans"?  
It was not about a smoking ban, but smoking was used as the prime example of how easy it is to ban something.  See how easy it is to say it is okay to ban one thing because you are in favor of it, but not another because you think it is perfectly fine? 
Same thing being stated in these "gun control/stats" threads.  It's okay for people to be afraid of or hate them, but don't take away others' rights to own and use guns in a responsible manner.

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They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
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Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
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There are NO GUNS in SCOTLAND - 4/27/2007 7:14:52 AM   
RythymMan


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After the terrible tragedy at Virginia Tech, it is time that we turned to an older, more civilized country as a role-model. I speak, of course, of Scotland. Scotland has long since evolved beyond such displays of violence as we saw in Blacksburg this past week.
A United Nations report has labeled Scotland the most violent country in the developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted than in America. England and Wales recorded the second highest number of violent assaults while Northern Ireland recorded the fewest.
The reason why is obvious: on March 13, 1996, a lone gunman entered the Dunblane, Scotland school gym and killed 16 children and their teacher. Within the next year handguns were made illegal in Britain bringing an end to gun violence in that ancient land.
The ban has had no discernible effect on gun crime, which has continued a steady rise dating back more than 25 years and which accounted for some 4,000 injuries in the UK last year [2006]. Immediately after the ban, the number of shootings actually went up and has stayed up, though the homicide rate, which is relatively low, has been almost unaffected. In Scotland, for instance, the rate of about eight killings a year by guns has remained the same despite the Dunblane ban.
Bravo for the Brits! Without guns, people are now safe to walk the streets.
[Dr. Ian] Holland and his colleagues operate on someone in Glasgow an average of every six hours, every day of the year. They try to fix the damage done by knives, razors, bats, fists, kicks and, very occasionally, innocent accidents. More than a thousand patients are sent to maxillofacial surgery every year as a result of violence in Glasgow alone – and the figure is rising. Only a fraction is reported to the police.
When will we Americans realize that the only way to make law-abiding people safe is to take away everyone’s guns?
Early indications, in the west [of Scotland] at least, suggest [crime statistics] will be up again in 2006-07, at least for murder – the easiest violent crime to count. There were 60 murders in Strathclyde between April and December 2006, 19 more than in the last nine months of 2005. Officially, reported attempted murders were up too – to nearly 300.
Without the guns, criminals are no longer able to hurt the innocent. Gang violence will come to an end.
[In Scotland, a] crackdown on the sale of swords has been launched as part of a campaign to tackle knife crime and violence…. The measures are the latest steps from the Scottish Executive to curb the problem of knife crime…. [Justice Minister Cathy] Jamieson said: "Knife-carrying is all too prevalent in some communities, particularly in the west of Scotland, and has cut short and scarred too many young lives. "In these areas police, doctors and law-abiding citizens have seen the damaging effects of swords, including samurai swords, being wielded on the streets. "It is simply far too easy at present for these weapons to be bought and sold." Other parts of the plan brought in under the Police, Public Order and Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act doubled the maximum penalty for carrying a knife to four years, gave police the unconditional power to search someone they suspect of carrying a weapon and increased the minimum age for buying a knife from 16 to 18. [Detective Chief Superintendent] John Carnochan, head of the police's violence reduction unit, hailed the measures as "another major step forward in the fight against knife crime and violence". More than half the murders in Scotland each year are carried out with knives or other sharp weapons.
True, law-abiding people including women and the elderly will no longer have the means to defend themselves from the young, violent criminal once all guns are confiscated, but those people will no longer have a need for self-defense. Without the guns, there will be no violence from which to be protected.
3 per cent of Scots had been victims of assault compared with 1.2 per cent in America and just 0.1 per cent in Japan, 0.2 per cent in Italy and 0.8 per cent in Austria. In England and Wales the figure was 2.8 per cent.
Scotland has shown us all, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that removing guns solves the underlying problem. Today, Scotland is once more a picturesque land where you and your mates can gather for a peaceful pint at the local pub.
Glasses and bottles face being banned from Edinburgh's pubs and clubs under plans to tackle the soaring number of violent attacks fuelled by drink…. The move comes after the number of glass and bottle attacks in the city soared by 40 per cent last year…. A similar ban is about to be rolled out across Glasgow….
So allow me to raise a glass to my ancestral people, the Scots, and to say thank you. Thank you for showing us the result of outlawing guns. Peace, serenity and culture.
The machetes are worst. As heavy as they are sharp, they cleave cheeks and split jaws – mash faces. Victims never look the same again, their twisted smiles revealing the true scale of Scotland's toll of violent crime.
April 27, 2007
Rob Blackstock teaches economics at Louisiana Tech University and is the Senior Economist for American Economic Services.
 
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< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 4/27/2007 2:57:41 PM >

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RE: There are NO GUNS in SCOTLAND - 4/27/2007 8:25:02 AM   
meatcleaver


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From my experience in Scotland, its problem is drink. Take away the drink and you'll take away much of the violence. The same with England and Wales, take away the Saturday night drink driven violence and violent crimes will plumet. Nottingham police said on a BBC documentary, if they eradicted Saturday night drink violence, 25% of Nottingham's violent crimes would disappear overnight.

Murders in Britain have doubled since 1945 with a population increase of 20%. A lot of the 20% has been down to immigration, taking Britain from an homogenous society to a multicultural society and the problems that go with that. There was a brief closing of the wealth gap in the sixties and seventies which has been widening since the Thatcher era and an underclass has been formed and minorities that feel excluded from society. These problems if anything, have got worse under Labour despite the manipulation by Labour of statistics which have been politicized and can no longer be trusted. Most murders are however, are limited to ghetto type crimes or domestic crimes. For the average citizen going about their business, Britain is probably no more violent than in 1945. Young inner city males are the most likely people to commit violent crimes and the most likely people to suffer from violent crime. There has also been a marked increase over the years in the reporting of violent crime, this is encouraged by insurance and compensation claims but also of sections of society feeling less inhibited about reporting crime, such as women reporting rape and domestic violence and ethnic minorities being more willing to report racial crimes. There are also more crimes on the statute book than in 1945 so you ahve more chance of breaking the law.

However, after all that, with the government having politicized the statistics, much is conjecture as to whether crime has risen or fallen because there are no statistics that can be trusted.

http://www.parliament.uk/COMMONS/lib/research/rp99/rp99-056.pdf

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/27/2007 8:28:00 AM >


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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/27/2007 12:18:04 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

It's okay for people to be afraid of or hate them, but don't take away others' rights to own and use guns in a responsible manner.



As I pointed out on the "bans" thread, just like smoking,  I dont care whether other people have or use guns.

Long as they are not shooting at me or my loved ones.

See how easy it is to bring this argument full circle?

Sinergy

_____________________________

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/27/2007 12:22:29 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack


This happens to be the big argument against. Some people hate them as irrational as it is to hate a piece of metal, they do. There is no point arguing with someone's fear, or hatred, and I am perfectly content to leave any such person to their phobias and angst... so long as those fears that control their lives don't spill over into mine.  


[smartass]

Give up now, Pulpsmack.  I tried the "I dont care as long as your shit doesnt spill over into my life" approach on the smoking ban thread and apparently the idea is an illogical, irrational, and erroneous concept for a person to have.

[/smartass]

Sinergy


Ah, Sinergy..in your zeal, you forgot that the thread was  Are you selective in your stance on "Bans"?  
It was not about a smoking ban, but smoking was used as the prime example of how easy it is to ban something.  See how easy it is to say it is okay to ban one thing because you are in favor of it, but not another because you think it is perfectly fine? 
Same thing being stated in these "gun control/stats" threads.  It's okay for people to be afraid of or hate them, but don't take away others' rights to own and use guns in a responsible manner.


There is a huge difference between someone who handles a gun responsibly around others and second hand smoke....You can't responsibly tell your second hand smoke not to go into my clothes, eyes, mouth, nose and lungs....Go outside and smoke. 

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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/27/2007 12:35:35 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

There is a huge difference between someone who handles a gun responsibly around others and second hand smoke....You can't responsibly tell your second hand smoke not to go into my clothes, eyes, mouth, nose and lungs....Go outside and smoke. 


It's difficult to tell someone to point their gun the other way. Most gun crime doesn't involve ruining your clothes as in most gun crimes the gun isn't fired but ruining your sense of safety and making many people live in fear.

Having worked for ten years in the probation service in London, there are many areas where young men think guns put spunk into your bollocks (not an unusual thing reading CM), they ruin the lives of thousands of people because they become a law unto themselves. Luckily for most people in the country they stick to ghettoes but I doubt that would be the case if they were allowed to walk round with guns legally. Tough as they think they are, they don't like the idea of five to fifteen years for carrying illegally and so leave most of the country alone.

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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/27/2007 1:01:40 PM   
domiguy


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But there in lies the difference...The majority of gun owners are responsible. There are plenty of countries such as Canada where gun ownership is virtually a rite of passage and yet "gun crime" is relatively low....The U.S. just has a knack that any toy we own must be used.

Personally I am opposed to guns especially handguns....However I would march along side of those if the day came when guns became illegal to own...In Chicago it is illegal to own a handguns....Your form of protection must be found in the form of a shotgun or rifle....Personally if someone hears the sound of a shotgun cocking and still chooses to stick around you might be glad to have a scatter gun as your choice of self defense. 

Guns ownership is a "right" and yet that right to bear arms has a responsibility that goes along with it.

There is no correlation between a ban on smoking and gun ownership....I was remiss in even responding along those lines.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/27/2007 1:02:54 PM >


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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/27/2007 1:41:07 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

There is a huge difference between someone who handles a gun responsibly around others and second hand smoke....You can't responsibly tell your second hand smoke not to go into my clothes, eyes, mouth, nose and lungs....Go outside and smoke. 


Okey Dokey...I have no problem with that.  And smokers I know, and I know many smokers, have no problem with it either.  Well, yes we do, to the extent that we do not have a choice for any smoking inside anywhere.  I.e., a bar that indicates it is a smoking establishment.  They are now illegal in My state.  But, alas, we do have a problem with the fact that we are running out of places outside where we can smoke also.  Even our own backyards, it seems.  My favorite restaurants are not even allowed to provide a patio outside for smokers.   I do have a serious problem with the lack of freedom of choice.  There are no choices to make anymore.  *Sigh*
I have a great idea...how about if you non-smokers also have a choice not to patronize a smoking establishment?  Not working for ya?

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 4/27/2007 1:53:28 PM >


_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/27/2007 1:51:40 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

But there in lies the difference...The majority of gun owners are responsible. <snipped>

Guns ownership is a "right" and yet that right to bear arms has a responsibility that goes along with it.

There is no correlation between a ban on smoking and gun ownership....I was remiss in even responding along those lines.


And I know that most smokers are responsible and will respect the designated areas and exercise self-control.  But the ability to live politely has been legislated away due to the hysteria of the non-smokers. 
I am glad you will march along side the gun owners should they (who is they, I often wonder?) ever decide to remove that right.
And you are correct that smoking is not a right.  However ....
How about some freedom of choice?  Show Me some respect by giving Me a few places where I can legally smoke outside when I am out and about for a long day, and I will respect you by only using those designated areas. 

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 140
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