RE: Can you serve God and your Master?

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AquaticSub -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 9:01:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub The Bible, like any religious text, requires both faith and personal interpratation. Just as I do not feel required to inform every man when I am menstrating, I do not feel that homosexuality is a sin. I do not feel that the Bible saying sexual slavery is all right means that we should go out and start nonconsentual slavery again. All that it says is that engaging in consentual sexual slavery is not a sin. My only point was that saying this isn't justifying anything. The Bible says what the Bible says - how you take it's meaning is entirely up to you. Well...I am not sure how to respond to this since you only repeated what you said i nthe first place and didnt really provide any logic to debate my questions and own logic with. In fact, you completely ignored all my points more or less. Yes I did. Because the point of this thread is that the Bible allows for sexual slavery and I do not feel the desire to be drawn into a long religious debate with you in this thread. If you wish to have one, let us do it somewhere else. quote: We are on agreement regarding taking what you want from the Bible and applying it to your own life..but I disagree with your reasoning. Also the analogy on homsexuality and menstration went completely over my head. I dont see what they have to do with each other. The law that condemns homosexuality is found in the Old Testement. Christian women now do not inform men when they are menstrating, as old test law requires. I often ask them why they obey one old testment law, but say the coming of Jesus and the new laws negates the other. quote: I guess its the nature of the beast...I can provide all the logic I want in this thread and people will just ignore it, not consider it and keep holding on to their religious opinions. Its why I think religion is so dangerous in the first place. Religion is a matter of faith. If you do not believe, then you do not belong in the religion. I do believe and it's not logical. If I went by logic, then I wouldn't have faith. Religion is not dangerous. Blind faith is dangerous. Please know the difference. quote: My post provided a lot of logic in support of LA's opinion since our opinions are the same. However, no one has really challenged it or debated it yet, but keep telling LA how her opinion is wrong regarding justification. Why should I? I have to defend being a Christian just about every day of my life to the people I do care about. Including Valyraen sometimes. Why should I care about defending Christianity to you? It's a matter of faith and to those of us who chose to believe in that oft-black bound book, it's nice to know that slavery is ok in there. quote: If reading the Bible is about personal interruptation and picking and choosing what you want from it, then...in esscense, how is that any different then justification? If your going to take what you want from it and make up your own moral code, then whats the point of calling yourself a Christian? Why not read all the religous books, get a wide variety of information, and use them all to develop that moral code? Justification is going "X is all right, so Z must be all right too." The books says it's allowed - no justification needed. quote: If your going to say "Well...the Bible says consentual slavery is ok and sex before marriage is wrong, but I am going to still have sex before marriage anyways because I think its right" then who cares if the Bible says consentual slavery is ok? I didn't say that. Go back and read my post. I said it's a sin according to the Bible and it troubles me sometimes. I know I live in sin. quote: It doesnt make any sense to me, but a lot of things about religion dont. That's why it's a matter of faith. quote: Like how the majorities of people's beliefs are the ones they are taught as children and how they can go there entire lives without questioning or changing them, then stuborrnly tell me those beleifs are right. That is their belief. Who the hell are you to want to change them? I'm not going to change your opinion on Christianity. I'm not going to try. This is your belief and it's not my place to change it. quote: My opinion is that we should think for ourselves and think past simply what is written in the Bible...since its basically what people are doing anyways...just within a much more limited scope. My opinion is that you should go to a service in a non-Southern Baptist, non-conversative Christian church and realize that many Christians are thinking for themselves and about what is written in the Bible. This is the faith that brings us comfort in our lives and that comfort is no different then that given by Islam, Buddhism, or Wicca. If you hate a certain type of Christians, then hate them. I hate the type if Islamic people who hurt people. I hate the type of Christians who tell me I'm going to hell for X,Y, or Z. But I am Christian. And you can think whatever the fuck you want about it. It's a source of comfort and you thinking that you can tell of us who have that comfort and that faith, that we wrong, that we don't think enough, anything... You are just as bad as the Christians who run around trying to convert everybody. That's all I'm saying to you on this subject because Christianity as a valid religion is not the point of this OP. If you want to start one, I'll be more then happy to join you there.

Invictus754 -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 9:01:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aslanemperor This is a question that I've personally battled with, and I'm guessing other Christians on the site are in a similar bind. *In a bind? What a funny guy!* Seriously though, what planet are you from? If you are seriously trying to mix the king james version with BDSM, you are going to lose on two fronts. Go back to your church, kneel down and pray to your god for forgiveness that you strayed. You will be much happier.

LotusSong -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 11:02:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BondageTopJere By and large, there have been times when I wish the impression of the BDSM realm wasn't one of floggers, chains, and black leather. Most of us here enjoy those things, but their... physical props, tools; they hold no meaning in of themselves. Its the way in which they're employed is what gives them meaning, and rather unfortunately is the thing people outside the D/s realm concentrate on. Agreed :) Doncha know S and M now means Stand and Model?

MadRabbit -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 4:01:45 PM)
Perhaps I did get a little off track, but my few first posts were an opinion in regards to the OP. I happen to just enjoy discussing religion, but unfortanely you cant provide opinions contary to other people's opinions without people getting into mudslinging and accusing you of trying to change their beliefs. If I am trying to convert you, then my apologizies. I guess we're both just as bad though since your defending your open mindness with closemindness. Either way is mute since we are in agreement in principle and just arguing over details so to start a new thread would be pointless.

MzMia -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 4:24:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Satyr6406 Well, here's a subject that's near and dear to my heart. I think the first thing I might say is that the first two references (Exodus and Leviticus) are Old Testament references and most Christians tend to view the OT with a bit of a jaundiced eye (I would caution that Leviticus also has verses that, if read, literally, seem to ban the playing of American football). Having said that, I notice that the two references from Colossians make no mention of any physical punishment. Therefore, while I might agree that that particular bible allows Christians to engage in a D/s llifestyle, it doesn't seem to support your claim of BDSM activities. Now, none of this is meant to say that I disagree with the premise. quote: ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav my Master serves God...i serve God and my Master...its not been an issue for me as of yet. I have always believed that very thing but, that is why I have frequently said that a dominant/master must serve a "higher set of principles" (One needs to be politically correct, these days). In my mind, if a dominant only serves his own egotistical, chest-thumping, well ... So, for my "two cents": "Can you serve God and your master?" Yes, as long as your master serves God; otherwise, you have different agendas and that isn't "lifestyle". Peace and comfort, Michael Nice topic, I have to agree with Michael on this one. Well said. I totally agree. [;)]

MzMia -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 4:28:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Satyr6406 As usual, this is thread that started with a nice premise (whether the facts were correct or not) and some people have chosen to make it about putting down people's beliefs. Each person's understanding of a Higher Power is fluid. We find God in our hearts and if something doesn't offend our conscience, chances are, we're on firm, spiritual ground. To view that as people justifying their actions is to ridicule their beliefs. Of all the places on the internet, this would be one of the places where people might expect to find a population largely made up of open-minded people. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Christians are no more deserving fodder for ridicule than are any other "ethnic" group. Yet, for some reason, especially in this type of community, they seem to be open targets to anyone with an anti-God axe to grind. I refuse to believe that you can engage in a D/s (The jury's out for me, on BDSM) relationship that isn't pleasing to the Higher Power which I choose to serve. A gentleman who seems to have been struggling with an issue comes in here to try and share some things that helped him. He did ask for feedback on those thoughts but, where did anyone ask for Christians to be ridiculed and villified? For a lifestyle that knows (to an extent) what persecution is about, I'm a bit disappointed by some of the responses. I am hurt by the hurtful attacks designed for nothing else but to ridicule and make the commentors feel better then those "horrible" Christians. Peace and comfort, Michael [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif] Come on Michael, did you really expect us NOT to be ridiculed? Why should people accept and allow us to NOT think and believe as THEY do? Of course many here are NOT accepting of differences, I am not sure why you would expect this population to accept us Christians! We are all supposed to be the same here, we are not allowed to be different! Shame on you![:D] Only atheists, pagans and devil worshippers are accepted here-----not us Christians! [sm=river.gif]

angielouwhos -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 4:33:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Satyr6406 As usual, this is thread that started with a nice premise (whether the facts were correct or not) and some people have chosen to make it about putting down people's beliefs. Each person's understanding of a Higher Power is fluid. We find God in our hearts and if something doesn't offend our conscience, chances are, we're on firm, spiritual ground. To view that as people justifying their actions is to ridicule their beliefs. Of all the places on the internet, this would be one of the places where people might expect to find a population largely made up of open-minded people. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Christians are no more deserving fodder for ridicule than are any other "ethnic" group. Yet, for some reason, especially in this type of community, they seem to be open targets to anyone with an anti-God axe to grind. I refuse to believe that you can engage in a D/s (The jury's out for me, on BDSM) relationship that isn't pleasing to the Higher Power which I choose to serve. A gentleman who seems to have been struggling with an issue comes in here to try and share some things that helped him. He did ask for feedback on those thoughts but, where did anyone ask for Christians to be ridiculed and villified? For a lifestyle that knows (to an extent) what persecution is about, I'm a bit disappointed by some of the responses. I am hurt by the hurtful attacks designed for nothing else but to ridicule and make the commentors feel better then those "horrible" Christians. Peace and comfort, Michael Wow was that well said. Some people have the gift :) I agree pretty much completely. Yes you can serve God and anyone.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 4:51:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub This would be like a bacon-loving Jewish person finding a little read part of the Torah that allows them to eat pigs. It's not justifying anything. It's saying loudly and clearly that "Hey, this is allowed by the laws of your religion!" It's just nice to know. IMO if they really cared, they'd have looked it up and made a conscious informed decision BEFORE going ahead. The fact that they have a "crisis of faith" ex post facto, simply shows that they don't base their life or actions on their faith, they just like the good parts that align with what gives them what they want. As Tammyjo said- she doesn't need factoids to justify her faith, it is what it is.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 4:53:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci God didn't initiate or condone the banishment See the problem with an omniscient and omnipotent god is that everything that happens is actually condoned- because then anything could be stopped (and in fact the christian god HAS stopped many a thing and interfered with humans tons of times with miracles violating the supposed unalterable free will christians claim to need so much). If it happens, it's because god has made it so. You really can't get away from that fact when you have a god which is both omnipotent and omniscient.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 4:55:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci You didn't see Christians do that - you saw cowards and liars hiding behind the title of "Christian" doing that. Christ's teachings do not promote hate. It's SOME people's warped interpretations of them that cause hateful acts like what you mentioned above......slave luci I'm afraid that doesn't work. You can't say "Anyone who says/does X is christiand and anyone who doesn't, isn't" Because what about THOSE people who then say "We are the real christians, and YOU are just a fake poser?" Any system of logic that sets you up to always be right is probably flawed.

MzMia -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 5:01:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub This would be like a bacon-loving Jewish person finding a little read part of the Torah that allows them to eat pigs. It's not justifying anything. It's saying loudly and clearly that "Hey, this is allowed by the laws of your religion!" It's just nice to know. IMO if they really cared, they'd have looked it up and made a conscious informed decision BEFORE going ahead. The fact that they have a "crisis of faith" ex post facto, simply shows that they don't base their life or actions on their faith, they just like the good parts that align with what gives them what they want. As Tammyjo said- she doesn't need factoids to justify her faith, it is what it is. I totally agree with LA on this, there is no way in h e l l I NEED to defend my faith----it is what it is! [:D]

MadRabbit -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 5:01:47 PM)
Hold on, L.A...your only allowed to go off topic in this thread if your opinions are aligned with those of the Christian perpective. The rest of us need to make a new thread to go off topic.

AquaticSub -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 6:02:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Perhaps I did get a little off track, but my few first posts were an opinion in regards to the OP. I happen to just enjoy discussing religion, but unfortanely you cant provide opinions contary to other people's opinions without people getting into mudslinging and accusing you of trying to change their beliefs. If I am trying to convert you, then my apologizies. I guess we're both just as bad though since your defending your open mindness with closemindness. Either way is mute since we are in agreement in principle and just arguing over details so to start a new thread would be pointless. The points you offer are not new. I've heard them all many times before. To be a Christian requires only that you believe in Jesus Christ as your personal savior. I've done this dance many times, and at this point it is only worth it to show someone in my real life that I have given a great of thought to my religion. I have tried others and I returned to this one. At finals time, this debate is simply not worth it for a complete stranger. Please forgive the cynical attitude if you can. I realize that you serve an important function as you test faith. It is required for faith to exist because religion and faith are not easy and they are not meant to be. In doing what you do, you actually help people be better Christians/Muslims/Wiccans/etc (as I expect you treat all religion the same). But right now, I am far more concerned with passing my finals then I am engaging with a debate regarding the virtues of Christianity with a complete stranger and having to defend my faith over and over again.

AquaticSub -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 6:09:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub This would be like a bacon-loving Jewish person finding a little read part of the Torah that allows them to eat pigs. It's not justifying anything. It's saying loudly and clearly that "Hey, this is allowed by the laws of your religion!" It's just nice to know. IMO if they really cared, they'd have looked it up and made a conscious informed decision BEFORE going ahead. The fact that they have a "crisis of faith" ex post facto, simply shows that they don't base their life or actions on their faith, they just like the good parts that align with what gives them what they want. As Tammyjo said- she doesn't need factoids to justify her faith, it is what it is. What makes you think they didn't? Coming to the decision to be baptisted and be a Christian took thought, prayer and study. I still sin - I am not perfect. Nobody is. I try not to take the Lord's name in vain. I fail at it a lot. Just because someone gives something up for the Lord doesn't mean they will never miss it. Look at our world, BDSM, for an example. A slave may give up her orgasms for the delight of her master. That doesn't mean she didn't like getting them. After all, scarifice isn't worth much if it's easy is it?

MadRabbit -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 6:17:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Perhaps I did get a little off track, but my few first posts were an opinion in regards to the OP. I happen to just enjoy discussing religion, but unfortanely you cant provide opinions contary to other people's opinions without people getting into mudslinging and accusing you of trying to change their beliefs. If I am trying to convert you, then my apologizies. I guess we're both just as bad though since your defending your open mindness with closemindness. Either way is mute since we are in agreement in principle and just arguing over details so to start a new thread would be pointless. I realize that you serve an important function as you test faith. It is required for faith to exist because religion and faith are not easy and they are not meant to be. In doing what you do, you actually help people be better Christians/Muslims/Wiccans/etc (as I expect you treat all religion the same). Then you understand me and I appreciate the kind words. Its just healthy to ask questions regarding what we have faith in. It keeps it from being blind as you pointed out. All religions have influenced my own faiths and my own beliefs so I do treat them all the same. Its just, living in America, the topic usually falls on Christianity with Islam as the second. Of course, I am unfair since I agree more with Eastern religions than Western. The orignal point of my posts wasnt to actually question the religions, but rather to question some of the logic behind the connection of their own values and their faith.

AquaticSub -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 6:26:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Then you understand me and I appreciate the kind words. Its just healthy to ask questions regarding what we have faith in. It keeps it from being blind as you pointed out. All religions have influenced my own faiths and my own beliefs so I do treat them all the same. Its just, living in America, the topic usually falls on Christianity with Islam as the second. Of course, I am unfair since I agree more with Eastern religions than Western. The orignal point of my posts wasnt to actually question the religions, but rather to question some of the logic behind the connection of their own values and their faith. They were quite sincere. I hope you understand that I am not upset that the conversation in the thread went this way, only trying to say that I, personally, just don't have the mental energy or patience for it at this time.

MadRabbit -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 6:32:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub This would be like a bacon-loving Jewish person finding a little read part of the Torah that allows them to eat pigs. It's not justifying anything. It's saying loudly and clearly that "Hey, this is allowed by the laws of your religion!" It's just nice to know. IMO if they really cared, they'd have looked it up and made a conscious informed decision BEFORE going ahead. The fact that they have a "crisis of faith" ex post facto, simply shows that they don't base their life or actions on their faith, they just like the good parts that align with what gives them what they want. As Tammyjo said- she doesn't need factoids to justify her faith, it is what it is. What makes you think they didn't? Coming to the decision to be baptisted and be a Christian took thought, prayer and study. I still sin - I am not perfect. Nobody is. I try not to take the Lord's name in vain. I fail at it a lot. Just because someone gives something up for the Lord doesn't mean they will never miss it. Look at our world, BDSM, for an example. A slave may give up her orgasms for the delight of her master. That doesn't mean she didn't like getting them. After all, scarifice isn't worth much if it's easy is it? I dont want to speak for L.A, but rather reinstate one of my own points. Therei s a differene between that and... A) Conciously doing something you know is against your faith with the intention of reconciling later on. Like my example of murdering someone with the intention during the murder of reconciling after the murder. B) Living your life in a way that puts actions before the faith. Hence, if I constantly did what I wanted, THEN questioned whether it was right or not by my faith, one might wonder how much value I put in my faith. In that case, it would be justification, since I have already done X and am now searching for Y to justify X being right. If the bacon loving Jew ate bacon, then went to look for that small passage proclaiming it was ok, one would wonder if he really gave a shit in the first place. And I hate to get personal, but...another example would be...once again...you and the sex with marraige issue. You know its a sin by your religion. You admitted you live in sin. But the fact that its a sin doesnt have enough bearing for you to stop living in sin. Of course, I could be wrong. I dont know enough about you and your personal life regarding sex with marraige to determine that. But...none the less...it does provoke me to ponder just how much that certain aspect of your faith meant to you. Just like it would provoke me to ponder how much the person's faith meant to them if they came to these messageboards seeking consultation regarding a faith issue after they commited the act. It also makes me ponder the positives of religion since dogma is shackling them down with guilt regarding issues they could possible beleive to be right enough to go against that dogma for... Which brings me back to my orginal point behind all of this that I stated in the message before this...the reasoning and importance behind the connection between the person's faith and values.

Aslanemperor -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 9:54:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: myobedience quote: ORIGINAL: junecleaver I'd like a reference for 'scriptures which say that it's ok for a man to sleep with his slave without marrying her because she is his property.' It must be right beside those verses that talk about stoning unwed mothers and burn homosexuals alive? Me tooo. I was on a few yahoo boards back 3 or so years ago and one was VERY strict and Biblical. There was an argument on several boards about men OWNING a woman. There is a verse...but I cant remember it....I suppose our 23 yr old theologian knows? Actually, the bible used Stoning primarily as the death sentence. But the scripture about sleeping with a slave is: Leviticus 19:20-21 "20 " 'If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD." Ok, there is a better one but I can't find it currently. I will search again when I'm not about ready to go to bed. However, if nothing else, this verse implies that it's ok to sleep with her. It's only sin in this verse because the girl was engaged, and thus it's adultery. Otherwise, it's implied it wouldn't be sin.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/22/2007 10:02:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub A slave may give up her orgasms for the delight of her master. That doesn't mean she didn't like getting them. After all, scarifice isn't worth much if it's easy is it? I personally don't think Jesus ever meant for his message to be that of sacrifice, even with his death I think he meant to show us to be true to ourselves more than anything and how we don't have to sacrifice anything at all. But that's just me. My point was mainly that it's rather pointless to choose to do something and THEN try to find some justification for it religiously. If it truly matters that you align your life choices with your faith, then that is how you live. Making a choice and THEN afterwards trying to find some justification for it only shows some sense of guilt or questioning- not that you really worried over whether your action aligned with your faith. Not that people can't change their minds- you could decide all your life that something was fine with your faith and then today have a change of heart and decide to look over things with new eyes. But that's not what the OP was doing or what most people do when they follow this set of actions IMO.

slaveluci -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 4:28:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif] Come on Michael, did you really expect us NOT to be ridiculed? Why should people accept and allow us to NOT think and believe as THEY do? Of course many here are NOT accepting of differences, I am not sure why you would expect this population to accept us Christians! We are all supposed to be the same here, we are not allowed to be different! Shame on you![:D] Only atheists, pagans and devil worshippers are accepted here-----not us Christians! [sm=river.gif] Yes, i agree. Everything and everyone is acceptable as long as it's "different enough." i've said it before and i'll say it again: for a "lifestyle" that is considered odd and unacceptable by many people, it seems to be full of folks who are just as unaccepting and judgemental - just of different things. i'm really surprised at the number of people who have no qualms at being down right disrespectful of someone else's spiritual beliefs. It's supposed to be cool to degrade someone for being "Christian" simply because a very visible segment of evangelical, fundamentalist folks have given us all what i consider a "bad name." To lump ANY whole grouup together and assume they are ALL the same is nothing short of ignorance, i don't care what group it is...........slave luci

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