RE: Can you serve God and your Master?

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slaveluci -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 4:36:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci God didn't initiate or condone the banishment See the problem with an omniscient and omnipotent god is that everything that happens is actually condoned- because then anything could be stopped (and in fact the christian god HAS stopped many a thing and interfered with humans tons of times with miracles violating the supposed unalterable free will christians claim to need so much). i never claimed free will is "unalterable." Again....saying that "Christians" claim to need it so much is in error. SOME Christians might....please stop grouping every single person who identifies as Christian into one neat, tidy little group that can be easily put down. We are all entitled to our spiritual beliefs and shouldn't have to fight to defend them, especially with people who are obviously so against them it won't do any good to waste your breath. (Christ Himself spoke of not "casting pearls before swine.") Believing that we have free will is, to me, not the same as believing that God never intervenes. As with everything, it doesn't have to be black and white. i believe i have the free will to choose to believe in God and to be a Christian. This doesn't mean that my free will supercedes God's Will. He can and does intervene when He chooses to. That is simply my opinion - i don't pretend to speak for any other Christian but myself....slave luci

slaveluci -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 4:49:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci You didn't see Christians do that - you saw cowards and liars hiding behind the title of "Christian" doing that. Christ's teachings do not promote hate. It's SOME people's warped interpretations of them that cause hateful acts like what you mentioned above......slave luci I'm afraid that doesn't work. You can't say "Anyone who says/does X is christiand and anyone who doesn't, isn't" well, actually i can. The Scriptures are very clear as to what Christ's teachings are and they were not full of hate. There are certain things that are clearly delineated as being "Christian" and not Christian. One of Christ's main themes was of love and forgiveness. Those who claim to be one of His followers but who consistently violate the principles which He taught ARE "fake posers" as you say. "Real" Christians (please capitalize the word - it is a proper noun just like any other name. Capitalizing it doesn't mean you actually believe in Him...lol) don't hide behind His name to promote hate. And before we get into all the anti-homosexuality stuff, i honestly do not remember Christ saying one word on the subject. Please correct me if i'm in error. i'm not concerned about systems of logic, to be honest. If you think my beliefs or thought systems are flawed, that's fine. i'm sure i feel the same way about yours. It's just sad to me, as a Christian, to see Christianity mocked and degraded when it's not true Christianity that folks are so upset with. It's a twisted, warped version of it that some overzealous people who call themselves Christians promote. For instance, to see George Bush and his ilk speak of being a Christian administration when all their actions so clearly violate Christ's teachings is heartbreaking. People all across the country and the world now think that the things he has done come from a basis of Christian teaching. How wrong that is but, as many people - including lots of Christians, are Biblically illiterate - they actually believe he represents Christianity. i find that nothing less than sad...........slave luci

Twicehappy2x -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 5:04:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Suleiman BWA HA HA HA HA!!! ::cue lightning:: Master LaVey will be most pleased!!! "Since worship of fleshly things produces pleasure," he said, "there would then be a temple of glorious indulgence . . ." Anton LaVey I am not a Satanist though i did read the book back in the seventies, a good read. Being a Druid there is actually no compromise on either end. Pleasure of the flesh is viewed as a gift from the gods, and indulging in it a most natural experience.

slaveluci -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 6:08:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I'm afraid that doesn't work. You can't say "Anyone who says/does X is christiand and anyone who doesn't, isn't" Because what about THOSE people who then say "We are the real christians, and YOU are just a fake poser?" The more i thought about what you said here, the more i see your point. i was trying to think of some other way to express what i mean here and i thought of this example. Please bear with me: Suppose someone sets out to promote vegetarianism. They form a group called "The Vegetarians" and set about recruiting members. During their first group meeting, they meet at a restaurant where they all promptly set about to having nice, big, juicy rare steaks for dinner. Now, they SAY they are vegetarians. They CALL themselves vegetarians. Who are we to judge and say they aren't? Well....by the very definition of the word, it is clear that they are NOT really vegetarians, correct? This is the point i'm trying to make about Christianity. Anyone can CALL themselves a Christian but unless they believe and adhere to the fundamental principles Christ taught and said His followers would live by, they really AREN'T Christians at all. i can call myself a size 2 blonde, that doesn't make me one[;)]. And, to go a step further with the vegetarian example: if you had been a devoted, life long vegetarian who really doesn't eat meat and you saw a group like this taking the title in vain, as it were.....would you not be offended that their "anti-vegetarian" behavior was being accepted as how real vegetarians are? If people bought into what they were saying/doing, they would think vegetarians eat meat. This is what i find so offensive about hatemongers claiming they are Christians. People who aren't Christians see that and think that's how Christians really are..........slave luci

thetammyjo -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 6:45:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I love how christians try and find justification for what they do when it's something that really matters to them. They don't care about the having sex before marriage because most people keep quiet about that these days. But the kink? Well we've got to find a way to make that OK. I don't believe this is an example of finding justification. The Bible does allow and advocate sexual slavery. You sure it's sexual slavery or slavery in general. They aren't the same thing, not even in the ancient world or societies where slavery is still legally or socially acceptable. Yes sexual. As mentioned, Hagar was a slave taken to ensure a son. This was approved of and laws were in place to govern it. Actually, I'm sorry to be history chick again, but if you reread that text, Hagar was a slave BEFORE she was used to get children for both Sarah and Abraham. Her slavery wasn't sexual, part of her work became sexual. In this case it also became a problem when the slave thought her new work replaced her old work and her old duty to her mistress. Of course, we only have the Jewish version of this story. If Hagar had gone about her other work and merely turned over the boy to her mistress there may have been no jealousy. If anything I think this story emphasizes the dangers of mixing slavery with sexuality because it risks blurring the lines between owner and slave. Yes, I do believe there is a big difference.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 7:13:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci i believe i have the free will to choose to believe in God and to be a Christian. This doesn't mean that my free will supercedes God's Will. He can and does intervene when He chooses to. That is simply my opinion - i don't pretend to speak for any other Christian but myself....slave luci I'm not sure you understand the concept of "free will" here. You either have it or you don't. The fact is that, according to christians in general, god can and often does interfere with will and how the way the world works- in fact most of them pray for him to do so every day. And that's not "free will"- that's being allowed to live most of the time AS IF there were free will, when, in reality, god can come down and cut it off any time he wants (and, according to the stories, often did/does).

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 7:15:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci And, to go a step further with the vegetarian example: if you had been a devoted, life long vegetarian who really doesn't eat meat and you saw a group like this taking the title in vain, as it were.....would you not be offended that their "anti-vegetarian" behavior was being accepted as how real vegetarians are? If people bought into what they were saying/doing, they would think vegetarians eat meat. This is what i find so offensive about hatemongers claiming they are Christians. People who aren't Christians see that and think that's how Christians really are..........slave luci Why aren't hatemongers christians while you are? That's mostly rhetorical really- I'm just driving the point home that you can't prove yourself as the "real true followers of christ" and more than they can. I completely understand your point about vegetarians vs non vegetarians. Would that we had such clear criteria for religious affiliation.

slaveluci -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 8:00:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I'm not sure you understand the concept of "free will" here. You either have it or you don't. The fact is that, according to christians in general, god can and often does interfere with will and how the way the world works- in fact most of them pray for him to do so every day. And that's not "free will"- that's being allowed to live most of the time AS IF there were free will, when, in reality, god can come down and cut it off any time he wants (and, according to the stories, often did/does). LA, How can i argue with you if you keep making so much sense? [8D] Ok, what you said makes sense. i do see your point. i guess what i consider "free will" is what i talked about before - the free will to choose to believe in God and Christ and to choose to follow the tenets of Christianity. What you're saying makes good sense - theologians have debated it for centuries. i sure can't answer it satisfactorily. i guess, for me, it comes down to something you touched on earlier about logic. For me, faith is the antithesis of logic: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" - Hebrews 11:1 and Christ Himself commended those who, unlike "doubting" Thomas, can believe without seeing, without proof. i can't use logic to "prove" what i believe. i just know i believe it and that's good enough for me. No, that's not intellectual and scholarly, but it's how it is for me......slave luci

slaveluci -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 8:09:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Why aren't hatemongers christians while you are? Well, "Christian" means "Christ-like" and hate is not Christ-like. That's about the best answer i can come up with. It's not up to me to decide who is Christian and who is not. That's between them and God. But something i think Christians (and others) forget is that there is a difference between judging and discerning. It is not for me to judge another (condemn them) but it is perfectly acceptable to use the sense God gave me to discern if their behavior seems to line up with Christian principles. In Scripture, we are told to "judge not" lest we "be judged." Having a discerning spirit, on the other hand, is actually encouraged. So, i'm not judging hatemongers, i am simply discerning that, according to Christ's principles, their behavior is definitely not Christian. That's mostly rhetorical really- I'm just driving the point home that you can't prove yourself as the "real true followers of christ" and more than they can. i see your point and trying to prove myself or anyone else as the only "real," "true" Christians is not something i'm interested in doing at all. However, as with the example i wrote above, to see people blatantly doing the OPPOSITE of what Christ really taught and then saying their behavior is like His (Christian), is truly troubling to me. I completely understand your point about vegetarians vs non vegetarians. Would that we had such clear criteria for religious affiliation. Amen....i feel Scripture DOES provide some clear criteria--it's not comprehensive, i suppose--but sure does provide a good outline.......slave luci

simply4You -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 8:16:03 AM)
Greetings Every O/one: The original question "Can you server God and your Master?" After a weekend away, i was actually very surprised and glad to see this here. During an 'argument' that i had with another person, this was thrown out: "happy hunting for the perfect christian dominate male you can be proud of.." ... "hope you find all you are looking for, and something mom will be proud of" i grew up in the church. i have taught, served on youth boards, been a counselor at youth camps, served in other areas and still sing on occassion. Growing up, there was a LOT that i was 'protected' from in my parents eyes. Didn't mean they succeeded, just meant that if i wanted to know what something was about, then i had to find out for myself. While i am not as active now as i once was that is mostly due to time restraints. my children are as involved, if not more so than i was as a young child and they LOVE going and learning and growing in the word. Church, God, Christianity ... it overflows into our daily lives, into theirs and for that, i'm very thankful for how i have chosen to bring up my children. Do i struggle with Christianity in general in regards to BDSM and the lifestyle that i feel completely drawn to? Yes. Almost daily. But that doesn't mean it's a battle between Christianity and BDSM. For me, it's a struggle with appearances within them to be honest. i value the relationship i have with my parents and family and friends. They are relationships that have been rocky at the best of times, but within the past year have grown. They are not relationships that i wish to end or have broken because of personal choices i may make. Does it 'hurt' my parents and my brother that i'm not more active in the church or that i am not a 'member' of our chuch? Sure it does. my dad's been on the board for over 15 years and my brother is now too as well as the Youth director. Am i living a 'perfect' Christian life? According to my church and friends and even here ... most likely no. i'm not Perfect and i've never claimed to be. What i have to do, is take what i believe and put it into practice. Much the same as i would do in a marriage or D/s relationship. There were many many many similiarities in my marriage to D/s in the beginning. So much so that it bothered my family, but i was HAPPY and that was all that mattered. When things began changing and i was not 'happy' any longer, then they got concerned. There are things i agree with, things i don't, and other areas of my life that i just choose to put into Gods hands because for me ... that is faith and something i've been shown time and time again to be true. As long as my religious beliefs are respected, as long as the way i'm choosing to raise my children is respected, and as long as the Master i am with respects the fact that i need Him to not only ecourage me in my faith but to participate with me because it's a part of who i am ... then there is no reason why i should have to choose between one or the other. and by 'participate' i do not mean become an active member of the local Christians only club or church i don't necessarily need anyone to validate what i believe ... but i also don't need anyone else judging me for those beliefs. ~ simply_me

LaTigresse -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 8:30:11 AM)
While I do believe in god (or to take it out of modern christianity which is what I have a huge issue with) a power that is more than our physical self, yet part of us, and consisting of limitless power and pure love............I do not see D/s service, especially one with honour and love, as having any conflict at all with any spiritual belief. Of course I also don't give any credence to the modern day christian bible either.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 9:48:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci the free will to choose to believe in God and Christ and to choose to follow the tenets of Christianity. There being only one problem with this- a free choice means that there is no punishment for choosing one choice over another. If you say "Either give me the money OR I will kill your wife" then you are not given a free choice. You are being coerced by your choice. Yes, every choice has consequences, but for a choice to be free, it must not use fear or punishment of one choice over another. Saying a person is "free" to believe and follow a particular god doesn't work if you then say if they don't, then you'll be damned forever if you don't.

slaveluci -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 9:55:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci the free will to choose to believe in God and Christ and to choose to follow the tenets of Christianity. There being only one problem with this- a free choice means that there is no punishment for choosing one choice over another. If you say "Either give me the money OR I will kill your wife" then you are not given a free choice. You are being coerced by your choice. Yes, every choice has consequences, but for a choice to be free, it must not use fear or punishment of one choice over another. Saying a person is "free" to believe and follow a particular god doesn't work if you then say if they don't, then you'll be damned forever if you don't. Yep...makes sense to me [:@]....you've left me speechless, here....lol. i see exactly what you are saying. What would be the terminology then? If we are indeed "allowed" to choose but there is a consequence attached for not choosing "correctly" - if that isn't free will (which i see how it isn't), then what is it? You've got me intrigued now.........slave luci

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 9:57:43 AM)
I could do a lot of posting on this thread and this subject. At one point in time, I hung up my whip for awhile and threw myself into Christainity. I learned a lot and grew as a person. I however, started to open my eyes to the truth going on. Needless to say I've turned my back on religion (false teaching and works of man). There is a lot of manipulation going on inside Christianity itself. Many truths and fact being kept from people or simply not talked about. I do not view BDSM as somebody is going to go to Hell. There are countless things I could post in defense of this simply not being true. In terms of my own faith, I have my own basis and reasoning from my experiences in life, things I have read and how I understand it all. I do know this, There are many Churchs and So called Christain organizations that while they do good they also are promoting Lies and harm to others at the same time. This makes it difficult for me at times, because while I see and acknowlege the Good things, it's the Bad things that trouble me. The Teachings of Christ have become HiJacked as a means for Control over the masses in a BAD evil way. I am more Agnostic if anything when it comes to matters regarding GOD and religion. Then there is the concept or right of passage to a form of Godhood. Where we the children of Gods, have the right to our own sort or form of God like status. Hell Alexander the Great knew this as well, that's why he went to a temple in Egypt. But Oh Hell, this would take countless hours and a lot of in Depth writing to get into. Needless to say, I see some of the FemDom embracing the Godess inside themselves. The Mystery about the indwelling of God.. and if it's inside you. Servents, Slaves and Masters... there is a lot in the Bible that is a part of BDSM without a second question.

agirl -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 10:08:09 AM)
If being a Christian means to be Christ-like then many people fit that bill, without belief. If Jesus was so aware that he was God's son, he didn't require the same faith that his followers might have. agirl

slaveluci -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 12:10:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl *If being a Christian means to be Christ-like* then many people fit that bill, without belief. Ya know, i was thinking the same thing as i wrote earlier. There are indeed. Christian doctrine states that being "good" just isn't enough and that we aren't saved by our works. In other words, one can't "earn" salvation. But, there is no doubt that many wonderful people do many good deeds everyday that do indeed "fit that bill" for sure..... If Jesus was so aware that he was God's son, he didn't require the same faith that his followers might have. Well, i do believe He was "aware" as He was God in the flesh. He didn't need to have faith in Himself......slave luci agirl**

slaveluci -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 12:22:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile I could do a lot of posting on this thread and this subject. At one point in time, I hung up my whip for awhile and threw myself into Christainity. I learned a lot and grew as a person. I however, started to open my eyes to the truth going on. Needless to say I've turned my back on religion (false teaching and works of man). There is a lot of manipulation going on inside Christianity itself. Many truths and fact being kept from people or simply not talked about. i agree with this last statement for sure. i guess that's why, for me, it is so vital to study the Scriptures myself and not rely on any church, preacher, teacher, etc. to tell me what it is that they say and mean. i've heard Scripture twisted and falsely taught more times than i can count. I do not view BDSM as somebody is going to go to Hell. i certainly do not either. So far, for all my postings on this particular thread, i have not mentioned my personal feelings about BDSM and God. In my life, i do not try to justify my choice to be a slave by anything the Bible states. i am a Christian in that i believe the entirety of Scripture and believe it is divinely inspired. Are there parts i find hard to obey and wish i could just erase? Sure. As far as the "kink" this lifestyle incorporates, i definitely find no justification for any of that in the Bible OR, for that matter, justification for ANY sexual activity outside of marriage. But, as far as the deference and absolute servitude i show Master, i do find justification for that in the fact that Sarah called Abraham "lord" and "my lord." Total submission to Master is Biblically justified in my eyes. As long as Master serves God and i serve Master (and God), i feel justified. The "sin" of choosing a BDSM lifestyle is no worse than any other........slave luci

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 12:32:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci Yep...makes sense to me ....you've left me speechless, here....lol. i see exactly what you are saying. What would be the terminology then? If we are indeed "allowed" to choose but there is a consequence attached for not choosing "correctly" - if that isn't free will (which i see how it isn't), then what is it? You've got me intrigued now.........slave luci I have no idea how christians choose to ignore the contradictions of what their faith tells them is how things work. I personally think you'll go mad if you try and read past Genesis and think it follows any sort of organized system. Most christians tend to either ignore that there are contradictions, or pick the ones which sound right for them. But perhaps actual christians on the board can answer for themselves.

bayboundse -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 12:46:27 PM)
We are Christians. Have we found problems being both into BDSM and serving God? Sure but usually only becuase some so called preacher, priest, ect wants to make it that way. As far as the Bible goes we have not found anything in it to say BDSM is bad. Becuase so many "preachers" think their view is the only view and way I do not attend church. My slave does but she also does not let them tell her how to run her life. We as a family read the Bible and make our own choices. We will let God judge us. Just like the "preachers" we have found many people into BDSM who will judge you on their own BDSM standards. Our outlook on both BDSM and Religion is it is a personal choice. Until they start making BDSM laws and rules we will be fine. On the religion side God is the rule maker but he left it so man could mess up with good will or not so good will.

agirl -> RE: Can you serve God and your Master? (4/23/2007 3:08:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci quote: ORIGINAL: agirl *If being a Christian means to be Christ-like* then many people fit that bill, without belief. Ya know, i was thinking the same thing as i wrote earlier. There are indeed. Christian doctrine states that being "good" just isn't enough and that we aren't saved by our works. In other words, one can't "earn" salvation. But, there is no doubt that many wonderful people do many good deeds everyday that do indeed "fit that bill" for sure..... If Jesus was so aware that he was God's son, he didn't require the same faith that his followers might have. Well, i do believe He was "aware" as He was God in the flesh. He didn't need to have faith in Himself......slave luci agirl** Quite. I'm not just speaking of good works......I've done good things but not necessarily for good reasons. I know one person who is a thoroughly good bloke, who thinks good things and whose intentions are pretty pure...(not me, by the way). In my tiny, unimportant estimation, he deserves to have heaven as a destination .......but as he thinks that being a bloody decent person is nothing to do with Christ or God, I think he is destined to have to put up with a bugger of an after-life with the likes of me. Being Christ-like isn't enough.......you have to have the kind of faith that Christ himself didn't have to have. Talk about being set up to fail.....LOL agirl

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