quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

bdsm and slavery in the context that we use it here is an alternate lifestyle not an economic way of life as it was in the days of the bible. You are comparing apples and oranges.  To look to the bible to justify practicing it in your life, using bible quotes, would be like me looking in a Dr Seuss book for a recipe of green eggs and ham.

quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

Yeah, because sending Hagar out into the desert was really taking care of her. I guess God kind of saved Mary off the fly, but it was common for girls in her position to be stoned to death. I <3 Jesus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Holeysmokes, that was exactly what I was thinking.  And did you know that many books of the bible were removed because they didn't jell with the current thoughts on society?  The slave stuff stayed in because owners needed validation for having slaves.  Religion is a construct of man.  I believe in a creator, but I think what people do in the name of worship is strictly of their own making.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I love how christians try and find justification for what they do when it's something that really matters to them. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit


I am not going to try to not "put down your beliefs" in my post, but rather just question what you are saying here.

How much you want to bet I can go threw the Bible and find very clear scripture that opposes the notion of slavery?

What about the anti homosexuality parts, a subject you take up the sword for a lot on the forums?

It does say that in very literal terms.

It also justifies killing, mass genocide, hatred, harsh judgements on other people, racism...the list goes on and on.

I havent really found a whole lot of clarity regarding what is and isnt allowed by the dogma presented by the book since it contradicts itself constantly.

History marks dozens and dozens of different sects with very different values, many who have used the words printed in the book to do horrible atrocities.

The book is purely subject to interruptation and has had very little effect on people's moral codes. People decide what they want to do and then they search the Bible to find permission to do it...permission they are eventually going to find threw their own interruptation. (Or they just make a new sect...much like this one church in England popped up so a King could divorce his wifes...)

Much like your issue with sex and marriage. You have decided that sex and marriage is ok and have provided a logical justification to do it despite the fact that the Bible says its wrong.

I am an independant spiritualist (I made that up btw because I can do that in my religion) and your a Christian.

What makes us similar is we have our own unique values.

What makes us different is that I am not going to the Bible to find permission to do what I beleive is correct, then providing a justification for going against the Bible when I cant find the permission I need to do what I want.

If the Bible is wrong about sex before marriage (something you have admittd to beleiving in this post since you have committed the act and dont beleive you are going to Hell for doing it), then perhaps it can be wrong about your submission to your dominant?

Perhaps its wrong about a lot of other things.

Also..how does "reconciling with your faith" have any real value when you are conciously doing something you have admitted to knowing is against that faith?

What if I were to say "I am going to shoot this guy who is tied up by my computer right now in the head and then reconcile with my faith later on since its against my beliefs."?

I have admitted to knowing that what I am doing is wrong according to my faith since I have admitted I will need to reconcile for it? If my faith really had a lot of value, I wont kill the man as opposed to doing what I wanted, then making up for it later.

Why even have a religion then if your going to pick and choose and decide whats right or wrong on your own?

Are you any different then me who is simply deciding what is right or wrong without turning to the Bible?

Maybe people would be a lot better off if they turned to the books like the Bible for ideas, inspiration, and values to contribute to their own beliefs that they decide on their own.

I'm sure a whole lot of people would feal better about the things they are doing that the Bible is making them feal guilty about.

But what do I know? I am not a Christian. Just a spiritual cook with a GED and a library card.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I love how christians try and find justification for what they do when it's something that really matters to them. They don't care about the having sex before marriage because most people keep quiet about that these days. But the kink? Well we've got to find a way to make that OK.

I don't believe this is an example of finding justification. The Bible does allow and advocate sexual slavery.

You sure it's sexual slavery or slavery in general.

They aren't the same thing, not even in the ancient world or societies where slavery is still legally or socially acceptable.

quote:



Yes sexual. As mentioned, Hagar was a slave taken to ensure a son. This was approved of and laws were in place to govern it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I love how christians try and find justification for what they do when it's something that really matters to them. They don't care about the having sex before marriage because most people keep quiet about that these days. But the kink? Well we've got to find a way to make that OK.

I don't believe this is an example of finding justification. The Bible does allow and advocate sexual slavery.

You sure it's sexual slavery or slavery in general.

They aren't the same thing, not even in the ancient world or societies where slavery is still legally or socially acceptable.

Yes sexual. As mentioned, Hagar was a slave taken to ensure a son. This was approved of and laws were in place to govern it.

quote:



As is Wicca, but I have yet to see a bunch of people attack the Wiccan faith for this as intensely as they attack Christian beliefs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Suleiman

::in a whisper:: Pssst! Nobody tell him about the satanic initiation ritual you have to undergo to be confirmed as a twue mathter!

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Holeysmokes, that was exactly what I was thinking.  And did you know that many books of the bible were removed because they didn't jell with the current thoughts on society?  The slave stuff stayed in because owners needed validation for having slaves.  Religion is a construct of man.  I believe in a creator, but I think what people do in the name of worship is strictly of their own making.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I love how christians try and find justification for what they do when it's something that really matters to them. 

As is Wicca, but I have yet to see a bunch of people attack the Wiccan faith for this as intensely as they attack Christian beliefs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit


I am not going to try to not "put down your beliefs" in my post, but rather just question what you are saying here.

How much you want to bet I can go threw the Bible and find very clear scripture that opposes the notion of slavery?

What about the anti homosexuality parts, a subject you take up the sword for a lot on the forums?

It does say that in very literal terms.

It also justifies killing, mass genocide, hatred, harsh judgements on other people, racism...the list goes on and on.

I havent really found a whole lot of clarity regarding what is and isnt allowed by the dogma presented by the book since it contradicts itself constantly.

History marks dozens and dozens of different sects with very different values, many who have used the words printed in the book to do horrible atrocities.

The book is purely subject to interruptation and has had very little effect on people's moral codes. People decide what they want to do and then they search the Bible to find permission to do it...permission they are eventually going to find threw their own interruptation. (Or they just make a new sect...much like this one church in England popped up so a King could divorce his wifes...)

Much like your issue with sex and marriage. You have decided that sex and marriage is ok and have provided a logical justification to do it despite the fact that the Bible says its wrong.

I am an independant spiritualist (I made that up btw because I can do that in my religion) and your a Christian.

What makes us similar is we have our own unique values.

What makes us different is that I am not going to the Bible to find permission to do what I beleive is correct, then providing a justification for going against the Bible when I cant find the permission I need to do what I want.

If the Bible is wrong about sex before marriage (something you have admittd to beleiving in this post since you have committed the act and dont beleive you are going to Hell for doing it), then perhaps it can be wrong about your submission to your dominant?

Perhaps its wrong about a lot of other things.

Also..how does "reconciling with your faith" have any real value when you are conciously doing something you have admitted to knowing is against that faith?

What if I were to say "I am going to shoot this guy who is tied up by my computer right now in the head and then reconcile with my faith later on since its against my beliefs."?

I have admitted to knowing that what I am doing is wrong according to my faith since I have admitted I will need to reconcile for it? If my faith really had a lot of value, I wont kill the man as opposed to doing what I wanted, then making up for it later.

Why even have a religion then if your going to pick and choose and decide whats right or wrong on your own?

Are you any different then me who is simply deciding what is right or wrong without turning to the Bible?

Maybe people would be a lot better off if they turned to the books like the Bible for ideas, inspiration, and values to contribute to their own beliefs that they decide on their own.

I'm sure a whole lot of people would feal better about the things they are doing that the Bible is making them feal guilty about.

But what do I know? I am not a Christian. Just a spiritual cook with a GED and a library card.

The Bible, like any religious text, requires both faith and personal interpratation.  Just as I do not feel required to inform every man when I am menstrating, I do not feel that homosexuality is a sin. I do not feel that the Bible saying sexual slavery is all right means that we should go out and start nonconsentual slavery again. All that it says is that engaging in consentual sexual slavery is not a sin. My only point was that saying this isn't justifying anything. The Bible says what the Bible says - how you take it's meaning is entirely up to you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: orfunboi
i have never seen anyone from the Wiccan faith picket a funeral or promote hate, but i have seen Christians do it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: XianDominSJ

quote:

If the Christian God is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing, The Trinity, then if we were not supposed to think or act upon these things then it would not have been in our minds to ponder.

The Christian God is all those things, but add to merciful and patient among other qualities.  To assert the "if I feel/desire something it must be OK or God wouldn't have allow/given me these desires" is not only a cop-out, but is to set aside a number of dynamics -- most importantly that not every desire is good to act upon.  I'll put it in secular context:  Perhaps you've seen the coffee mug or bumper sticker that says something like, "Stress: The condition created when the mind overrides the body's natural desire to choke some asshole who desperately deserves it."  Whether people know it or not, that's an astounding theological assertion from the Christian standpoint.  The "stress" Paul calls the "battle" inside (the internal struggle to do the right thing). The "mind overriding" is understood, in the Christian context, as self-control under the acknowledgement that not just any and every desire, response, attitude, tone, etc. is acceptable. The "body's natural desire" is a good (if theologically anemic) reference of our human nature.  The idea is that when our body's seemingly natural desires pull us in one direction, our minds (if we think before we act) often comes into conflict, even more so when we attempt to wrestle control of ourselves from ourselves.  Sure. the mind can go to great lengths to rationalize any and all behavior (from stealing to molestation, etc.) and Christians are not immune to this, as you've noted.  But the fact that on some level we may feel a certain desire do "think or act upon" something doesn't necessarily justify that action as wise, right, or (in Christian context) not sinful.  The fact that we have a particular desire doesn't mean that it comes from or is endorsed by God, when in fact we more often simply get away with it -- for a while.  Sure, God could use His all-knowingness to see all my thoughts and desires, and sure He could use all-powerfulness to stop me from feeling/desiring them (and He has on some things), but if He were to use that power to stop me altogether, He'd have to strike me down ASAP.  So that's why I say don't forget mercy and grace.

quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

quote:



Yes sexual. As mentioned, Hagar was a slave taken to ensure a son. This was approved of and laws were in place to govern it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I love how christians try and find justification for what they do when it's something that really matters to them. They don't care about the having sex before marriage because most people keep quiet about that these days. But the kink? Well we've got to find a way to make that OK.

I don't believe this is an example of finding justification. The Bible does allow and advocate sexual slavery.

You sure it's sexual slavery or slavery in general.

They aren't the same thing, not even in the ancient world or societies where slavery is still legally or socially acceptable.

Yes sexual. As mentioned, Hagar was a slave taken to ensure a son. This was approved of and laws were in place to govern it.

I was thinking about it ... and that scenario really doesn't justify sexual slavery.  Hagar was originally just a servant of Sarah.  And you can see the strife that such a decision caused in the long run.

I'm a Christian.  I don't think you are going to find the words 'sexual slavery' by our definition in the bible but I do feel like it manifested itself in the traditional Jewish marriage.  Slavery in the biblical sense was non-consensual unless you want to count the guys that stayed even though they were released in the year of jubilee.

quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

quote:



As is Wicca, but I have yet to see a bunch of people attack the Wiccan faith for this as intensely as they attack Christian beliefs.

I've noticed this too.  It's not really 'fair.'  But maybe it's because there are many powerful people who use Christianity as a way to keep their power.  Or maybe it is the fact that the church controlled and abused the world for a significant period of time. 

I know it has nothing to do with my personal spiritual path and it sucks that I sometimes bear the brunt of the church's mistakes even though my beliefs can be radically different than theirs.

Just thinking, because I'm bored and I don't want to do my homework.

quote:

ORIGINAL: orfunboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Holeysmokes, that was exactly what I was thinking.  And did you know that many books of the bible were removed because they didn't jell with the current thoughts on society?  The slave stuff stayed in because owners needed validation for having slaves.  Religion is a construct of man.  I believe in a creator, but I think what people do in the name of worship is strictly of their own making.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I love how christians try and find justification for what they do when it's something that really matters to them. 

As is Wicca, but I have yet to see a bunch of people attack the Wiccan faith for this as intensely as they attack Christian beliefs.

This is true, however, i have also never seen a group of Wicca supporters attacking anyone. i have however seen many Christians attacking people for any number of reasons. i have never seen anyone from the Wiccan faith picket a funeral or promote hate, but i have seen Christians do it.

Maybe that's the difference.

Edited to add....i take that back, i remember on the yahoo boards, when the Christians would attack the Wicca belief regularly, of course these same Christians were also carrying on about how homo's should be shot, so i am not sure calling them Christians is appropriate, but that's what they call themselves, so who am i to argue.