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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 10:30:55 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		More pro-gun nonsense. If there were no guns it wouldn't have been so easy to kill three people in the first place and the assumption is that because this time the killer didn't want to die, all mass killers don't want to die. The chances are if the killer wanted to die, he would have killed one or maybe both of those that drawn on him. It is dificult to hit someone with a handgun on the move, American police have proved that time and again. Someone on one of the threads said it takes police on average 72 rounds to hit a moving target. Hell, I remember seeing a video on TV were a policeman emptied his gun and missed the guy he was shooting at but hit some other poor fucker! I assume he was trained, wearing a uniform and all.

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 11:08:44 AM   
Sicarius


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From: New Orleans
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

More pro-gun nonsense. If there were no guns it wouldn't have been so easy to kill three people in the first place and the assumption is that because this time the killer didn't want to die, all mass killers don't want to die. The chances are if the killer wanted to die, he would have killed one or maybe both of those that drawn on him. It is dificult to hit someone with a handgun on the move, American police have proved that time and again. Someone on one of the threads said it takes police on average 72 rounds to hit a moving target. Hell, I remember seeing a video on TV were a policeman emptied his gun and missed the guy he was shooting at but hit some other poor fucker! I assume he was trained, wearing a uniform and all.


Though it may be thought inappropriate to point it out, I find the assertion that all gun owners are bumbling morons who could not hit the broad side of a barn ... yet all homicidal shooters are obviously deadeye marksmen a bit paradoxical.  The reality of the situation is that most firefights in urban situations occur in CQB (Close Quarters Battle), which introduces a number of complicating factors upon everyone involved.  You are in intimate contact with the people you are shooting at, and the stress levels that have been monitored on test subjects during CQB exercises are outrageously high.

If we are to assume that your assertion is correct that every individual must fire 72 times in order to hit a single human-sized target, that would necessitate at least three full reloads of the magazine with a standard 9mm handgun (including the initial 18 rounds in the first magazine).  It would seem that if this statistic were even remotely accurate, they would not have counted over 100 entry wounds from the VT autopsies thus far.  In reality, the hit probability is around 15% under "normal" conditions ... approximately one in seven shots.  This information is derived from NYPD gunfight statistics averaged between the years of 1990 and 2000.  If you were wondering, the average number of shots discharged by officers during that timespan was 10.3 per engagement, with each officer firing an average of 5.2 shots.

In my opinion the poster to whom you were responding provided fairly adequate citations (or at least references) for what he was describing ... your assertion strikes me as little more than speculation and hearsay.  I'm not trying to be a jerk to you, and I respect your opinion on the matter, but it might be viewed more constructively if you would base the thoughts that you are positing on more than your own guesses.

-Sicarius

< Message edited by Sicarius -- 4/24/2007 11:27:09 AM >

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 12:07:55 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		It's no coincidence that you never hear much about cases such as those.

And it's obviously too bad that guns were forbidden on the Virginia Tech campus, as that false sense of security cost them dearly.

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 12:11:26 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Someone on one of the threads said it takes police on average 72 rounds to hit a moving target.



What I said was that 10 police officers fired 72 bullets at a guy in a parked car shooting back at them, at distances up to 10 meters, and hit the guy (although neither wound was dangerous) twice.

I also made the point that our gun expert consultant says that 2 hits out of 72 bullets was about or slightly above average for policemen in combat situations.

Just wanted to clarify what I posted.

Sinergy

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 12:13:24 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sicarius

Though it may be thought inappropriate to point it out, I find the assertion that all gun owners are bumbling morons who could not hit the broad side of a barn ... yet all homicidal shooters are obviously deadeye marksmen a bit paradoxical. 



I think the point is that someone who isn't bothered about being killed has an edge over someone who doesn't want to be killed.

It was someone else on CM, an American poster I believe that pointed out that police find it difficult to hit a barn door at close range with a hand gun. Though there are videos enough to prove it.

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 12:20:18 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

Um. Im sorry, but I fail to see how Jesus' current location has anything to do with this person's actions.
I went to a catholic school in the 70s. We had bomb threats at least once a year. Usually it was in the Spring when the weather was nice, so we didnt really mind so much. We had no idea, as kids, all the resources spent sniffing out a fake bomb. The buzz on the street was that it was the high schoolers who had attended our school who did it...they always seemed to have the day off and and just happen to strole by at the same time we were lining up outside.

Anyway, my point is that Jesus was most definitely in the building.

Why do people assume that Jesus Christ is the center of all morality in the world? Plenty of people who aren't Christians play well with others, share their crayons and don't make bomb threats. And plenty of people who profess to "know the Lord" light crosses on fire, bomb buildings and much much worse.


Um. The point is that there is no basis for morality anymore, um because um religion is gone. Um. Without it people have no um need to give a flying rat's ass what they um do . Um. Some do give that um flying rats ass, but um they feel no real um need to. Um. WHY give that um flying rats ass? Um. You can't um answer that, because um there isn't a reason. Um. THAT'S the um point. Um.  
 
[Mod Note: font reduced]

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 4/24/2007 1:05:35 PM >

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 12:23:33 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think the point is that someone who isn't bothered about being killed has an edge over someone who doesn't want to be killed.


Sure, I'll agree with you on that.  Bravado and a sense of "euphoria" or "bloodlust" is proven to give an edge in combat.  A classic example of such a thing would be Doc Holliday in the old west.  I don't necessarily see how this applies exclusively to firearms as the sole means of mass killing, though.  Right now most Americans (including myself) are outraged by the seemingly unstoppable tide of death in Iraq.  The vast majority of those deaths are being inflicted by relatively unskilled people making improvised explosive devices (IEDs) and planting them in strategic locations.  Hell, the 9/11 hijackers effectively killed almost 3,500 people with box cutters when you get right down to it.  I don't subscribe to the mentality that getting rid of guns will put an end to mass slayings.  I'm not saying that's a good thing, but I view them as an unavoidable fact of our fucked up world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
It was someone else on CM, an American poster I believe that pointed out that police find it difficult to hit a barn door at close range with a hand gun. Though there are videos enough to prove it.


I don't know what you want beyond scientific data collected by one of the largest police forces on Earth.  I am sure that there are freak incidents in which massive amounts of gunfire are sent at a person and they fail to strike, but the average hit probability is 1 in 7 shots.  This is a very well-known statistic amongst military and law enforcement personnel and trainers.

I'm not trying to justify that gross mismanagement of gunfire by law enforcement, but I do believe that the poster has clarified up above that the 72 rounds were discharged into a stationary vehicle within which the perpetrator was (I would assume) seeking some cover.  Putting a high-powered bullet on target through something as brittle as glass is extremely difficult, as most snipers and sharpshooters will attest to ... much less putting an average service pistol's 9mm slug through several layers of Detroit steel.

Everything has a context.

-Sicarius

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 12:35:22 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Um. The point is that there is no basis for morality anymore, because religion is gone. Um. Without it people have no need to give a flying rat's ass what they do . Um. Some do give that flying rats ass, but they feel no real need to. Um. WHY give that flying rats ass? Um. You can't answer that, because there isn't a reason. Um. THAT'S the point.   



Religion has no relevence to morality. If we lived according to the morality of the Bible we would be stoning women for adultery amongst other nasty vicious retributions in the name of God, who if you believe the bible is a psychopath. As Chomsky points out “The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history”. Yeah let's all believe and live by the morality of the bible and become christian versions of siuicide bombers.

A study has been done with modified culturally questions for different cultures and people tend to give the same answer to the moral dilemma questions whether they are an Amazon tribesman, a westerner, easterner, African or anything else, which suggests that much of our morals are not morals but genetically inherited behaviour.

Which reminds me I said I would find out the writer for JO.

[Mod Note:  quoted font reduced]

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 4/24/2007 1:07:14 PM >

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 12:37:34 PM   
Sicarius


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From: New Orleans
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Religion has no relevence to morality. If we lived according to the morality of the Bible we would be stoning women for adultery amongst other nasty vicious retributions in the name of God, who if you believe the bible is a psychopath. As Chomsky points out “The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history”. Yeah let's all believe and live by the morality of the bible and become christian versions of siuicide bombers.


Hey, turns out we also agree on something. 

-Sicarius

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 2:06:43 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Religion has no relevence to morality. If we lived according to the morality of the Bible we would be stoning women for adultery amongst other nasty vicious retributions in the name of God, who if you believe the bible is a psychopath. As Chomsky points out “The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history”. Yeah let's all believe and live by the morality of the bible and become christian versions of siuicide bombers.

A study has been done with modified culturally questions for different cultures and people tend to give the same answer to the moral dilemma questions whether they are an Amazon tribesman, a westerner, easterner, African or anything else, which suggests that much of our morals are not morals but genetically inherited behaviour.


If we lived according to the morality of the Bible we would be stoning women for adultery amongst other nasty vicious retributions

Not accurate.

As far as whether "morality" is genetically inherited or not, really isn't the most important question.  The more important question is whether or not our behavior can be internally controlled by socialization due to a society without an "outward" based value system.

FirmKY


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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 2:56:58 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Most cops only shoot "qualify" once a year unless they shoot on their own paying for their own ammo and range time.
I shoot about every 6 to 8 weeks.
When I was in the USCG I scored a 248 out of a possible 250 on the PPC (Practical Pistol Course) when we switched to Berretta 92f models from the Colt .45.
I "dropped" one round while I was switching from "stronghand" to "weakhand." (DAMN!)
I subscribe to the philosophy, "one round, one kill."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/24/2007 2:58:51 PM >

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 3:01:35 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Religion has no relevence to morality. If we lived according to the morality of the Bible we would be stoning women for adultery amongst other nasty vicious retributions in the name of God, who if you believe the bible is a psychopath. As Chomsky points out “The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history”. Yeah let's all believe and live by the morality of the bible and become christian versions of siuicide bombers.

A study has been done with modified culturally questions for different cultures and people tend to give the same answer to the moral dilemma questions whether they are an Amazon tribesman, a westerner, easterner, African or anything else, which suggests that much of our morals are not morals but genetically inherited behaviour.





If we lived according to the morality of the Bible we would be stoning women for adultery amongst other nasty vicious retributions


Not accurate.

As far as whether "morality" is genetically inherited or not, really isn't the most important question.  The more important question is whether or not our behavior can be internally controlled by socialization due to a society without an "outward" based value system.

FirmKY



The point that sanity was making was that without religion we don't have morality which is not true or at least might be triue but not in the way he means. There is nothing to suggest that people live to moral values or that moral values exist at all, morals aren't genetically inherited because they don't exist in anything but name, what we are seeing is just human behaviour. When people are in direct contact with each other, on the whole they react predictably and anyone who has traveled extensively will know that going from one culture to another that interaction doesn't vary very much at the fundemental level.

Can people be brainwashed? Well we all know the answer to that, which is yes. Do people respond to their own chosen values? On the whole probably not. If people responded with their own chosen values there wouldn't be geographical masses of people that believe in the same values, there would be a more speckled affect on beliefs. Every society bombards its members with propaganda to reinforce the values of that society, we in the west do it more than most, though it is more insidious in the west. We have the stupid idea that we are free but when looking at the beliefs of people, there is little variation. I think it was Foucault that said (could be wrong), you can look out (from your culture) but you can't look in, we are imprisoned by it.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/24/2007 3:03:16 PM >

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 3:16:07 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		1.  My first point was that your understanding of Christian biblical morality is inaccurate.

2.  My second point was while "morality" as you define it - inherent human impulses - likely does have strong roots in genetic reasons, that still does not address how those impulses are always handled in overt behavior.

To address some of your other ideas:

Do people respond to their own chosen values? On the whole probably not.

Yes they do.  All the time, without fail.

What you are questioning is whether "stated" moral beliefs are what people act on all the time.  That answer is often "no".  But not all the time.

Every society bombards its members with propaganda to reinforce the values of that society, we in the west do it more than most, though it is more insidious in the west.

I disagree.  In the west, we actually question our "propaganda" moreso than in any other culture.  It's just that you live in and are part of "the West".

What many fail to understand is that such cultural "propaganda" is critical to the health and functioning of a society, and when those cultural belief systems break down, the result is often not always pleasant.

Observation:

... morals aren't genetically inherited because they don't exist in anything but name,

seems to conflict with your earlier statement of:

... which suggests that much of our morals are not morals but genetically inherited behaviour.

FirmKY

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 3:28:19 PM   
forsakengrace


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

More pro-gun nonsense. If there were no guns it wouldn't have been so easy to kill three people in the first place and the assumption is that because this time the killer didn't want to die, all mass killers don't want to die. The chances are if the killer wanted to die, he would have killed one or maybe both of those that drawn on him. It is dificult to hit someone with a handgun on the move, American police have proved that time and again. Someone on one of the threads said it takes police on average 72 rounds to hit a moving target. Hell, I remember seeing a video on TV were a policeman emptied his gun and missed the guy he was shooting at but hit some other poor fucker! I assume he was trained, wearing a uniform and all.


This should be obvious by now ...

Banning guns does not mean there will be no guns. It just means that all the law abiding "good guys" won't have any guns when the homicidal maniacs decide to go out and start shooting.

You're right. IF THERE WERE NO GUNS, it *would* be a lot harder to shoot people. But, there are guns now and there will be pretty much always be guns.

< Message edited by forsakengrace -- 4/24/2007 3:31:28 PM >

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 3:42:26 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The point that sanity was making was that without religion we don't have morality which is not true or at least might be triue but not in the way he means...


Really, the point I am making is that the fear of God that used to be extremely prevalent in Western society has faded almost completely away,  and with it so has the moral code that many people used to live by because of that fear.

So in other words, if this guy Cho isn't going to burn in hell forever, or even get a good stern talking to for massacring 32 people and then killing himself, he thinks to himself "why not do it" and the only thing that comes to him as he is contemplating this in the middle of the night is that there is no reason why not. He thinks, in the big scheme of things it does not matter. There's no heaven or hell, no god, no nothing - so whatever he does is totally without meaning. In the end the Sun will nova and the Earth will be destroyed, there will be no history and no recollection of past deeds, and ultimately nothing will have mattered without the belief in a greater purpose.

With no reason for morals, there can be no morals. That's my point, and if you don't think that things have been changing since people quit believing in God you're dead wrong. It's just an observasion... I'm not religious, and I don't have any answers, but I'm betting that things will get worse before they get any better.

Earthly laws and consequences only go so far. Some think they are too smart to get caught, some plan on suicide as a way out of prosecution... there is no remedy really, except possibly to give people a much better education than our horrid public schools and colleges are currently providing.  

< Message edited by Sanity -- 4/24/2007 4:14:31 PM >

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 7:15:54 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sicarius

I'm not trying to justify that gross mismanagement of gunfire by law enforcement, but I do believe that the poster has clarified up above that the 72 rounds were discharged into a stationary vehicle within which the perpetrator was (I would assume) seeking some cover.  Putting a high-powered bullet on target through something as brittle as glass is extremely difficult, as most snipers and sharpshooters will attest to ... much less putting an average service pistol's 9mm slug through several layers of Detroit steel.

Everything has a context.

-Sicarius


The person in the car was not seeking cover, he was shooting back at the police officers out an open car window.

The context in which I made that statement was about the fact that higher brain functions and small motor movements deteriorate under adrenalin stress.  The closest officer was no more than 3 meters away.  The furthest away was 10 meters.

Additionally, it is a single incident culled from the NYPD crime bureau.

I also made the point that our gun expert pointed out that 2 out of 72 was at or slightly below the average.  You posted 15% or approximately 1 in 7.  I cannot argue authoritatively either way; just sharing what I was told.  My self-defense expertise is limited, as far as handguns (or knives) are concerned, with how to fight somebody who has one when you dont.  Please dont respond that only an idiot goes unarmed to a gunfight, sometimes people dont have the luxury to be armed or able to get their gun out before somebody has the drop on them.  I teach how to deal with that situation, not the morality or other issues behind whether to go around armed or not.

Sinergy


_____________________________

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 7:47:04 PM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: forsakengrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

More pro-gun nonsense. If there were no guns it wouldn't have been so easy to kill three people in the first place


This should be obvious by now ...

Banning guns does not mean there will be no guns. It just means that all the law abiding "good guys" won't have any guns when the homicidal maniacs decide to go out and start shooting.

You're right. IF THERE WERE NO GUNS, it *would* be a lot harder to shoot people. But, there are guns now and there will be pretty much always be guns.



Hey, you're using logic and common sense! That's not fighting fair.  

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 7:51:29 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
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Status: offline 		Thank God for the violence in schools...It gives the kids something to distract them from fucking.

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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 8:23:39 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Thank God for the violence in schools...It gives the kids something to distract them from fucking.



Lord knows they need a distraction before benji starts killing them in the interest of recycling.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: "Threats of violence in schools soar across U.... - 4/24/2007 8:26:06 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Thank God for the violence in schools...It gives the kids something to distract them from fucking.



Lord knows they need a distraction before benji starts killing them in the interest of recycling.

Sinergy


Is that some sort of  Soylent Green reference?

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