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Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 6:25:35 PM   
MsIce


Posts: 59
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		I have been reading the boards lately. Sometimes you read something almongst all the jumble of words and it quietly works away at you. The post I am referring to was about someone who was under punishment. They were put into what they felt to be extreme pain. This situation was portrayed to be most stressful and unpleasant for the submissive.

Which brings me to my question. What do you think about Safewording during a punishment session.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 6:31:51 PM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I have been reading the boards lately. Sometimes you read something almongst all the jumble of words and it quietly works away at you. The post I am referring to was about someone who was under punishment. They were put into what they felt to be extreme pain. This situation was portrayed to be most stressful and unpleasant for the submissive.

Which brings me to my question. What do you think about Safewording during a punishment session


This is really interesting actually. Clearly punishment by nature is supposed to be unpleasant. However, it is still part of BDSM and should be done in an SSC manner. If the punishment is extream to the point of physical harm, I would say, given consensuality, the submissive has a right to safe out. But this would have to be an extream case, not like a normal punishment. I would consider it ok to safe out if it was extream in the nature of physical damage or psychological/mental abuse. (I'm not talking normal spankings or humiliation play here. I'm talking extream stuff)

But for normal punishment, I'd say no. One would hope that if there is a relationship between the offender and the punisher, extreams wouldn't come into play that often.

But I think any party has the right to safe out if something becomes abusive and therefore non-consensual.

Lily



< Message edited by ProtagonistLily -- 4/29/2005 6:33:09 PM >

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(in reply to MsIce)
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RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 6:54:42 PM   
MrKite


Posts: 94
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		SSC
a safe word is a safe word. Better safe than sorry.

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If it feels good, do it.

(in reply to MsIce)
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RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 7:15:08 PM   
LadyShoshin


Posts: 492
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Burlington, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIce

I have been reading the boards lately. Sometimes you read something almongst all the jumble of words and it quietly works away at you. The post I am referring to was about someone who was under punishment. They were put into what they felt to be extreme pain. This situation was portrayed to be most stressful and unpleasant for the submissive.

Which brings me to my question. What do you think about Safewording during a punishment session.


The Dominant who has only one option in their punishment repetoire needs to work on their range of activities.
Cleaning a floor on hands and knees with a toothbrush, corner time pop into my mind immediately.

I don't use corporal methods of punishment, I like S&M, so I don't want the sub to associate pain with punishment.

I have sent home a man who had driven 2 hours to serve me because he was 13 minutes late. In negotiations, he had asked me to teach him to be on time. I try to make the punishment fit the crime.

_____________________________

PHLOX: “It’s unethical for a doctor to cause harm...I can inflict as much pain as I like.”

(in reply to MsIce)
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RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 7:16:20 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		but some use a safe word as a cope out. They forget the saying, when time gets tough, you get tougher.....

i do think the key word is HARM.. not hurt. Personally, i think alot of hurt can be done and not come close to harm.

(in reply to MrKite)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 7:22:53 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		I would have to agree, a safe word is just for what it sounds..to be safe. I could see how it could be misread as a way to get out of the punishment, but I would certainly hope that the punishment was not normally harsh enough to where there would be any confusion. I understand that with some "pain-sluts", to use "pain" as a punishment, causes some confusion...and I could see where if that was the case the pain would have to be intense to be effective. My suggestion (IMHO) would be to use another method to punish, so that a situation where a safe word could be a possibility could possibly be avoided.

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(in reply to MsIce)
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RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 9:00:06 PM   
MemphisDsCouple


Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIce

I have been reading the boards lately. Sometimes you read something almongst all the jumble of words and it quietly works away at you. The post I am referring to was about someone who was under punishment. They were put into what they felt to be extreme pain. This situation was portrayed to be most stressful and unpleasant for the submissive.

Which brings me to my question. What do you think about Safewording during a punishment session.


Ice, you seem sincere in your question so I'll share with you a conclusion I reached after a great deal of reading, discussing, experiencing, living, thinking and philosophizing d/s and s&m. Safe words are not just ridiculous, they are downright dangerous.

Your logic, though you state no conclusion, is irrefutable. The reader of your question is compelled to conclude, as I believe you did in your own mind, that possession of a safe word actually puts the submissive in control of the submissive's own punishment. Which is, obviously upon reflection, a ridiculous state of affairs.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

This is really interesting actually. Clearly punishment by nature is supposed to be unpleasant. However, it is still part of BDSM and should be done in an SSC manner. If the punishment is extream to the point of physical harm, I would say, given consensuality, the submissive has a right to safe out. But this would have to be an extream case, not like a normal punishment. I would consider it ok to safe out if it was extream in the nature of physical damage or psychological/mental abuse. (I'm not talking normal spankings or humiliation play here. I'm talking extream stuff)

But for normal punishment, I'd say no. One would hope that if there is a relationship between the offender and the punisher, extreams wouldn't come into play that often.

But I think any party has the right to safe out if something becomes abusive and therefore non-consensual.



Obviously, Lily is just as correct. One would need a safe word if one was in physical danger. However! This begs the question: Why in the world would a submissive be involved with a dominant who did not recognize physical danger? If the dominant can not recognize when the submissive is in physical danger..... why would the submissive submit to that dominant? If the dominant is so extremely lacking in empathy and understanding of the submissive that the dominant can not recognize literal psychological or emotional trauma.... why would the submissive submit to that dominant?

Playing devil's advocate here (because I don't have another writer to quote this time): What if the dominant just doesn't *see* what is wrong? Well... Can't the submissive just as easily say to the dominant, "I have no feeling in my left arm" versus saying, "red!"? hmmmmm? And if he steps on her toe, is she really going to say "red!"? My girl always just yells AIEEEEE!!!! When something like that happens, it is obvious the scream wasn't caused by a stroke of the whip. Sooooo I know to look around for what is wrong. Then, rather than her taking command of the whole situation by safe wording, I at least have the option of trying to cover up my blunder. Hell, I can step on her toe again - and act like I meant to do it the first time. Or, if I'm whipping her ass and she shouts, "my arm! my arm!" Well, what does any reasonable person do then?

Like I said above, if the submissive is with a dominant who doesn't have the sense to keep watch, to keep an eye on everything that is happening and be in tune with the reactions of the submissive, and to look around and be wary of what might be going wrong..... why in the world is the submissive submitting to that dominant?

Now: If the dominant and submissive are not in a relationship, if they're just "playing", then it is likely the case that the goal is to create the *illusion* of submission. That would fit with the word "play" just fine. That's what happens in a "scene". Like in a play, it is often the case that a temporary illusion is created by the participants. And that is a wonderful, fun thing to do. In the case of casual play, a safe word is entirely appropriate, even advisable. If there is not really a power exchange involved then obviously the submissive needs to retain the power over herself. She needs a safe word. However, the scenario Ice presented is not one of casual play. Ice poses a question related to punishment which, at least to me, definitively indicates a relationship, not casual play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

But I think any party has the right to safe out if something becomes abusive



No one could argue with that. Of course that is true. But that also begs the question. Why in the world would a submissive be with a dominant who would abuse the submissive? And if with such a dominant, why in the world would a submissive, upon experiencing abuse, upon finding out that the dominant will abuse the submissive, why in the world would the submissive stay with that dominant?

If the submissive is with a dominant who will abuse the submissive, all the safe words in the world will not fix that problem. To expect an abusive person to stop being abusive just because the submissive shouts a safe word is ludicrous.

You know the real problem I have with safe words? It's not that safe words make a mockery of d/s relationship "power exchange", which they surely do. The real problem I have with safe words is that they are a house of straw and some poor, trusting, idealistic submissive is going to wake up the next morning after being with an abusive dominant saying to herself, "but I had a safe word". Safe words, as they are defined and presented in the online and bdsm-group teachings are a very serious danger. Yep, "safe word" = a very dangerous concept.

But perhaps (at least) one submissive will read this and save her/himself from relying on the false sense of security of the "safe word".

Postscript:

You are welcome to print or save this post for your own use. Please do not copy it to any public or semi-public forum (including email groups/lists) without my express permission. Thanks. All rights reserved. (I write this postscript because after-the-fact someone wrote to me to inform me that they had copied a prior post I wrote to another list. So, I thought I'd better clarify what my preference/policy is regarding use of what I write.)

B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)

(in reply to MsIce)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 9:01:24 PM   
MemphisDsCouple


Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIce

This situation was portrayed to be most stressful and unpleasant for the submissive.



P.S.

Presumably this is precisely what the dominant intended.



_____________________________

B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)

(in reply to MsIce)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 9:08:23 PM   
cellogrrlMK


Posts: 672
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple

But perhaps (at least) one submissive will read this and save her/himself from relying on the false sense of security of the "safe word".


I disagree with your calling it a "false sense of security". The very first time Master and I played was my very first time playing at all. He gave me a safeword to use. Things didn't go very far before I, as a total newbie, got scared and couldn't take the VERY LIGHT flogging he was giving me (I've come a long way baby! lol) and I used my safeword very early in the session. He stopped immediately, comforted me, and reassured me that I had done really well my first time.

I have no plans to play with anyone else, but if I was told my safeword would not be respected that would be a deal-breaker for me. As far as punishments go, other people have contributed excellent suggestions for punishments aside from those that are physical and MIGHT require a safeword (or that one could use a safeword to get out of).

cello

(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)
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RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 9:21:20 PM   
uncollaredcandy


Posts: 21
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline

Why in the world would a submissive be with a dominant who would abuse the submissive? And if with such a dominant, why in the world would a submissive, upon experiencing abuse, upon finding out that the dominant will abuse the submissive, why in the world would the submissive stay with that dominant?

I think it's very intresting you asked why a submissive would be with a dominant who abused them, and I think there are two easy answers. 1- The submissive didn't know they would be abused. 2- We are only human, we make mistakes. I know I've found myself in more than one verbally abusive relationship. Does that make me stupid for putting myself there? No, but it does mean I need to know how to get out and learn from it and find something better the next time. I feel it is too easy to just ask why would you be there. We are human complex beings and some of our actions happen without us considering all of their possibilites. It's life and some people need to go there and be hurt to continue on with their journey.

Candy


(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 10:02:05 PM   
dprsub


Posts: 37
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		Speaking as a submissive, I would say that, for me, a safeword is like an electrical fuse: it is there as a last-ditch safety measure to prevent irreparable damage when things are going very wrong. It doesn't have to be physical danger, either: I have heard of submissives who can take all kinds of pain and humiliation, but someone bringing out the leather belt suddenly gives them flashbacks of those beatings her drunken dad used to give her as a child and she needs out of there NOW.

To me, a safeword is sacrosanct. Both parties entrust each other with it to prevent a disaster. Like any relationship, BDSM requires both sides to cooperate. I would think it's obvious that a Dominant can do damage by taking it too lightly, but a submissive who takes it too lightly does just as much damage to the relationship, and betrays the Dominant just as much. It's kind of like the emergency stop cord on trains... That is there for an emergency with a capital "E", not the kind where you simply decide you don't like where the train is going after all.

(in reply to uncollaredcandy)
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RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 10:08:50 PM   
siamsa24


Posts: 2426
Joined: 2/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I have heard of submissives who can take all kinds of pain and humiliation, but someone bringing out the leather belt suddenly gives them flashbacks of those beatings her drunken dad used to give her as a child and she needs out of there NOW.


In a case like this, however, I would worry that a person may not remember their safe word. When some people panic they "blank out" and are not able to remember anything, they just go into a panicked fight or flight mode.
This is another case of a dominant needing to know the sumbissive and how to read him or her.

In my case, my panic attacks may be mistaken for orgasm, not a good thing. My partner knows this however and is able to recognize the subtle differences that may not be noticable to anyone else.

(in reply to dprsub)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 10:14:54 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		It depends on why you use safewords.

If you use it as I do to mean "somethings wrong, we need to fix it NOW" then there's no reason a safeword shouldn't be used anytime anywhere.

If you use it to mean "I'm really not liking this or thinking its going too far" then perhaps a safeword is unnecessary duringa punishment when the point is NOT to like what's going on.

I personally find that unless it's a role playing scene, just SAYING what's wrong rather than safewording leads to more complete and open communication.

(in reply to MsIce)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 11:41:52 PM   
ravenna


Posts: 121
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		i just know this is going to get me in trouble with the BDSM Political Correctness Police, but here goes...

i've never had a safe word, never wanted a safe word, never been allowed a safe word.(Except for some exceptions -- hang on.) And i too think the idea of a safe word stopping a punishment seems a little (well, a lot) illogical. If i can end a punishment whenever my butt starts to get really sore, i fear i may not receive the full deterrent value of my punishment, and this will lead me into a life of crime, much to my owners' disappointment. Do criminals get sentenced to five to seven or until they yell out their safe word, whichever comes first, and then they get to go home with a lollipop and a blankie? (If that's the way it works, i plead guilty, Your Honor, and can i have my lollipop right now?)

When i was first enslaved and trained neither my owners nor i had ever heard the term "safe word." (Our sheltered little life!) Since we were all so ignorant of the "scene" and the "community" and all the SSC rules and customs and conventions, they simply trained me in the way that made sense to them, and one thing that was apparent almost immediately was that their judgment of my safety and health was much more sensitive and reliable than my own. My mind and body are very often still saying, Yes, please, more, please don't stop, Sir! when it's quite clear to them that we'll all regret tomorrow going even one step further tonight. They take much better care of me than i ever could myself, so a safe word would be pointless for me. In their hands, i'm much safer without a safe word. Also it's a point of honor for me (and them) that i trust them with my life, and i (and they) want nothing to come between my trust and their judgment and control. Exception: They give me a safe word for specific times and places, for example when we try something very new and very scary, or when i will be used in a scene with others. My owners never play with people they don't trust; the temporary safe word is just a safeguard against accidental danger when my owners might be momentarily absent or distracted. i don't remember ever using one, but Michelangelo says i have, once, over nothing apparently very threatening; it seems i've suppressed the memory. (But i suspect i must have suddenly felt abandoned, frightened to be momentarily out of contact with my owners.)

My third owner was quite different: i knew about safe words by then, and so did he, but my function was simply to obey without question; he would never have considered giving me a safe word to use when i was serving him personally or under his supervision, and i would never have dared to ask for one. It wasn't part of the deal. His rule was that he could damage his property if he pleased, and it wasn't up to the property to object. Exception: Under his service i was often loaned out or rented out, for an evening or as long as a week, and each time i was given a temporary safe word. Obviously hollering a safe word while in someone else's power far away from my owner's oversight wouldn't save me from any danger, it was purely so that he could exact monetary compensation later if his property was indeed damaged while out of his hands and the property claimed to have safe-worded to no avail. (This never actually happened.)

If i were ever given an explicit, general-purpose, all-occasion, stops-anything safe word, i would know that our rules of engagement had changed drastically, that my owners were no longer willing or able to take full control of my life, that the ultimate responsibility for my life had been shifted back to me, that perhaps they no longer really cared to own me. i would have to assume that i was no longer fully enslaved or owned, at least not in the same way i am now... This would be a crisis in my life, to say the least, and my owners assure me this will never happen.



(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/29/2005 11:56:29 PM   
cellogrrlMK


Posts: 672
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I think the OP was (and most others were responding to) referring to a real punishment, not a punishment scene.

(in reply to ravenna)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/30/2005 1:54:20 AM   
ElektraUkM


Posts: 309
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		I really liked your post, B (MemphisDsCouple).

I don't have a safeword. The first time we were together, Master asked me if i wanted one, but i was sure I didn't because I just didn't want to have any power at all. To have been able to stop things would have really spoilt the whole experience for me. Actually it made me cry that he asked me and I got confused and wondered whether I should have a safeword or not... He held me and asked me to talk about it and I said to him, did He want me to have one, so that he could feel more secure that he wasn't going to hurt me..? After a short while it was decided that a safe word wasn't necessary, for either of us.

Now I know some people would say that I needed to be able to signal to Master if I thought things were going too far... but to them I'd reply... Master is a lot more experienced than I am, and having known him a long time before we got together physically I can say that I trusted him 100% not to do anything dumb with my body. But further than that... this is what happened...When we got going, he told me that one of my jobs was to tell him if my hands went to sleep... BUT... i was too involved in what was happening to keep thinking about my hands!!! And he kept checking them anyway... because, i think... that's his job..? I don't think I want to be held responsible for what happens to my body when he is using me. If he can't see that my hands are cold or blue... then he's not doing things right. The same goes for any situation. He's a human being and he can tell when someone has had enough, I think.

To me, safewords seem like some sort of game. I need to be able to say... this is hurting too much! And for him to make a sensible decision about whether that's so or not. Isn't that real communication? Real responsibility on His part..? If there's a safeword, it makes the other communication somehow false, to me... like in a play-rape (something we don't do) scenario when I'd be shouting 'oh no! don't do that giggle giggle'... What we were doing wasn't playing, and I needed to know I could be real about what I said and that He would take my word for it and respond responsibly.

~ Elektra

(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/30/2005 2:00:34 AM   
ElektraUkM


Posts: 309
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		I'd just like to apologise for not responding directly to the OP! Just got carried away.

I suppose it's obvious though that I don't agree with using a safeword during punishment. I think the safeword during punishment argument is the best refutation of the whole safeword argument.

I do think, however, that if its a play session between people who don't know eachother well (or at all), and have no intention of learning all about eachother, then a safeword would be useful. I was just commenting from the point of view of a committed relationship.

~ Elektra

(in reply to ElektraUkM)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/30/2005 3:37:21 AM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Which brings me to my question. What do you think about Safewording during a punishment session.


I can not answer to the: extreme pain, stressfull, unpleasant part of what someone wrote. I can only answer and offer up my opinion to the question above.
If i were being punished for whatever reason..and i chose to safeword out of the punishments each and every time....what kind of guidance does that say about the Man i serve? what kind of lesson am i truly learning? who is now in control of the situation?
If Thorns is punishing me, it's for a damn good reason and i probably deserve it. I learn from my mistakes, i don't want to be punished, i don't want to see the disappointment in His eyes when He has to punish. I want His control. He is Master.....He leads.....i follow. If i don't want to be punished, i follow the rules He sets for me. If i chose to safeword out of punishment because "I don't want to be punished" It's time to be out of the relationship.....the control is gone.

Just my thoughts...

Happy Saturday y'all!!

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

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(in reply to MsIce)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/30/2005 4:50:40 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I don't use corporal methods of punishment, I like S&M, so I don't want the sub to associate pain with punishment.

I have sent home a man who had driven 2 hours to serve me because he was 13 minutes late. In negotiations, he had asked me to teach him to be on time. I try to make the punishment fit the crime.


I agree with you LadyShoshin. Punishments are best when the fit the crime.

I am not a big fan of “real punishment”. Then again, I'm more into Top/bottom relationships and not into Mistress/slave. I have found that at times, it is appropriate/necessary. But if I had a submissive that required a lot of “real punishment”, I would probably end the affair.

But the whole issue of punishment opens a whole other can of worms for me. I'll try to explain it as best I can. I look for adult male & female partners that have their life together and who want to have some kinky fun. I do not have the time or the energy to be in control of someone’s life, the way a parent would, which would require “real punishment”.

On the other hand, there is a type of dynamic that I do enjoy that involves a punishment-like dynamic. I guess someone could call it “play punishment” but I’m not sure if that is the right term. For example, my submissives have a strict rule that they are not to touch me without asking for permission. When they meet up with me, they are to wait for me to offer my hand or my cheek for a kiss, and so on. They know that breaking this rule will get them punished. Most of the submissives respect this and obey. Some have tested the waters to see what exactly would happen. Depending on the submissive and my mood, punishment has ranged from kneeling in the corner for a few hours to a strap lashing, though never anything that pushed a sub further then s/he had been with me before. And yes they could safe out of any of this, no problem. But then if they did, it would be a deal breaker, that is, it would be a double offence. Because I make the rules and if they can’t follow the rules, then they can go somewhere else. Simple as that.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to LadyShoshin)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/30/2005 5:10:21 AM   
wetsub000


Posts: 91
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		I'm a submissive, not a slave, therefore the safeword is mine to use should the play (or punishment) go beyond SSC. I would think it's my right to use the safeword in ANY situation, otherwise it's useless. If my safeword was ignored because I was being punished then it would be a deal breaker for me. Just as if I was the sort of sub to be using her safeword inappropriately I would expect it to be a deal breaker for the Dom/me.

(in reply to MsIce)
Profile   Post #: 20
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