RE: prayer in schools

RE: prayer in schools (Full Version)

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AquaticSub -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 4:27:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia i prefer to look to the future...can't change the past That point is completely invalid. If you'd bother with a history textbook you'd find out that plenty of people have been able to change the future for the better because they studied their history. For example, if the Bushs had studied history we probably wouldn't be in the mess we are in. But hey, if you support us going into stupid wars and losing a lot of fine young men, then you are all set!

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 4:28:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia i prefer to look to the future...can't change the past But if we pay enough attention, Michael, we can change the future by looking at and learning from the past.

AquaticSub -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 4:30:20 PM)
I am fully aware that prayers offered by strangers have no effect and I never laid claim that it would. I said that those who believe personally are more likely to get through tramatic medical conditions. I've heard science say it's because they have a greater will to live, a greater sense that all will come to be as it should be. I don't know why. I just know I've seen it with my own two eyes.

domiguy -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 4:30:29 PM)
If you want to worship a God as portrayed in the Bible go right on ahead you are in good company: To put what happened to the primitive humanoids that existed on the Earth in those days in perspective, consider the story of the “cargo cults” that developed among the natives of some remote Pacific islands after World War II. It seems that U.S. forces made brief landings on these islands, building temporary air strips and setting up military encampments as they prepared for assaults on Japanese held territories. Sometimes these camps remained only a few weeks, or months, before the military picked up and moved on. They left behind discarded equipment, crashed aircraft and lots of junk. In the 1960s, missionaries and anthropologists visited these islands and were astounded by what they found. Tribes had generated religions based on their brief “contact” with the military troops that dropped down out of the sky and came in ships to their territory. They built churches from old aircraft parts. There were altars on which could be found various discarded pieces of military junk that included old radio sets and even cans of military rations. Thus American military forces were regarded by the primitive people of the islands as “gods” who also came from the sky. They had no other way of explaining what had happened to them. I would rather worship a can of rations or an aiplane over the "biblical God" or the Kid Rock of a Jesus that is depicted on the crucifix in most North American churches.

WingedMercury -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 4:57:16 PM)
I guess it comes down to "is logical 'better' than illogical". If you think illogicality is 'better', then we have reached the bedrock of our disagreement. There is little more to discuss. I have already acknowledged in previous posts that a person who has a non-scientific faith, and has found god, will often feel a comfort in this, and their quality of life may improve. Some will even, because of that faith, do "good" in the world, and the quality of others' lives may improve as a result. Whilst this is not my way, it is their concern, not mine. The danger comes when group decisions are made on a non-rational basis. The culture of a society becomes influenced, and I have already given instances where this can cause problems. There are thousands more. Let us just obey the golden rule ("do unto others etc ".... unless you are a sadist, of course) and take it logically and rationally from there.

WingedMercury -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:00:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Celeste43 I would never tell anyone that I find them saying they will pray for me to be offensive because then I would be as rude as they are. However I do find it offensive. We're Jews. In my son's class are Jews, Christians, Moslims and Hindus that I know of. Also agnostics and atheists. So to whom or how do you propose to pray that will not offend someone in that selection? In what way is it "offensive"? It is just saying "You are offending me. Please don't continue. Keep your god to yourself and don't get me involved. Thank you. Have a nice day!"

Sinergy -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:02:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia quote: Oh dear. This is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever seen. No wonder US is in Iraq at present. All the perceptions of the Deep South suddenly seem so real. ever have an employer come up to you and ask about "The Battle at Valley Forge" or "Custer's Last Stand"? it may be good for those who "want" to study it, but it has no place in the work force. I have had employers mention to other employees that their approach to dealing with an issue would result in a Phyrric victory for the company. To take one employee who could have used a brief introduction to history, take George W. Bush. Had he studied history a little bit more thoroughly, he might have given thought to the idea that, like so many other wars and invasions in the past, fighting might have resulted in the destruction of what he was fighting for. History teaches the student important concepts AND the context in which these existed. Sinergy

AquaticSub -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:09:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury I guess it comes down to "is logical 'better' than illogical". If you think illogicality is 'better', then we have reached the bedrock of our disagreement. There is little more to discuss. Logic often has little to do with the way people live their lives, and that does not only apply to religion.

WingedMercury -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:11:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury I am in my 60s and have travelled the world several times. I can assure that I have more exposure than what you suggest. *Why is a scientist "no better" than a christian fundamentalist, with all their wretched beliefs?* Answer me. Don'd duck. But don't make blunt assertions, support what you say with argument. Where did this come from? I don't believe anyone said that a scientist is no better than a Christian fundamentalist. They each have their place, and you seem to be making a case that anyone who believes in God or says that they will pray for you is a Christian "fundamentalist". However, I will point out to you that you seem to assert that a "science based" life choice is "better" than anyone who may also have a "faith based" lifestyle. Especially since you are stating that their beliefs are wretched. I have no problem combining both of these concepts, and most of the people I know have the same mindset. Angry much? What is your problem? Most of the people you know have the same mindset. Of course. That is part of the culture that has been allowed to develop in your part of the world. The fact that most of the people I know think that Christian fundamentalists are "crazies" and world wide opinion polls indicate a high and increasing lack of respect for your part of the world, partly because of christian fundamentalism, then this should cause you to undertake intensive introspection. If "most people I know" gives some sort of credence to your argument, then "most people in the world" should really have an effect on your thought processes. "Most people I know" might give you comfort, just as soaking your brain in warm religion might as well, but it is hardly a rational argument. But then, we are back to rationality again, aren't we. Have faith that you are right, if that is what you need.

AquaticSub -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:14:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy I have had employers mention to other employees that their approach to dealing with an issue would result in a Phyrric victory for the company. Oooo...awesome reference. I had to look that one up.

WingedMercury -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:24:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury I am in my 60s and have travelled the world several times. I can assure that I have more exposure than what you suggest. Why is a scientist "no better" than a christian fundamentalist, with all their wretched beliefs? Answer me. Don'd duck. But don't make blunt assertions, support what you say with argument. What would you like me to say? You are not acting as a man of science. A man of science would look to his research - research that shows that religion provides comfort. Research that shows that prayer quite possibly can heal where medicine can't. It's not proven, but science has yet to disprove it. Religion provides strength. Those who believe in a higher power more frequently survive the harsh trials of devestating disease. In seeking to remove religion, in seeking to destroy it, you are seeking to take away comfort, a place for the community gather, a social network that helps raise children to have good values. It is certainly not required to make a human being a good person, but it helps. A scientist may be better then a Christian fundie, but you are not being a scientist. You are being insulting, rude, crass. You refuse to look or believe that there may be another point of view - a trait most unbecoming of a scientist. You are acting an athestist fundementalist, waving the banner of "There is no God, and all those who believe in one are idiotic fools!" Science has yet to explain well-documented stigmatas, miracles of medicine and bizarre supernatural incidents. You can choose to believe whatever you wish about them. I will choose to believe what I feel in my heart to be true. I will not preach belief to you if you will not preach non-belief to me. I don't claim to be a scientist, though I do claim to be someone who has had an interest in these matters from my Catholic school days through to agnosticism and eventually atheism. I have acknowledged that there are other points of view, and have acknowledged that religion can provide comfort and even good. I do not say that "those who believe are idiotic fools", I merely say that I believe they are wrong, and I say so. I even think I can explain to them why they believe. You are right when you say that "science has yet to explain ..." and it is going to be very difficult to disprove that Christ did not rise from the dead, that our lady of Fatima did not appear to the innocent children, and that Joan of Arc had god on her side when she was defeated and burned at the stake. If you are going to maintain your beliefs in miracles until science has disproved these "bizarre supernatural incidents", then you are going to be mired in your mindset forever. I am asking you not to relinquish your religion, but to rely not so much on your heart, but on your rational thinking processes.

WingedMercury -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:28:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury I guess it comes down to "is logical 'better' than illogical". If you think illogicality is 'better', then we have reached the bedrock of our disagreement. There is little more to discuss. Logic often has little to do with the way people live their lives, and that does not only apply to religion. You are endorsing that we don't act logically? What sadness! Join with me. Campaign for the brain! The way people live their lives is usually based on what will maximise their own comfort. This is usually achieved rationally/logically (eonomists, for instance, model according to the "rational man"). A lot of people act irrationally, and that is what I am railing against.

AquaticSub -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:30:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury I am in my 60s and have travelled the world several times. I can assure that I have more exposure than what you suggest. Why is a scientist "no better" than a christian fundamentalist, with all their wretched beliefs? Answer me. Don'd duck. But don't make blunt assertions, support what you say with argument. What would you like me to say? You are not acting as a man of science. A man of science would look to his research - research that shows that religion provides comfort. Research that shows that prayer quite possibly can heal where medicine can't. It's not proven, but science has yet to disprove it. Religion provides strength. Those who believe in a higher power more frequently survive the harsh trials of devestating disease. In seeking to remove religion, in seeking to destroy it, you are seeking to take away comfort, a place for the community gather, a social network that helps raise children to have good values. It is certainly not required to make a human being a good person, but it helps. A scientist may be better then a Christian fundie, but you are not being a scientist. You are being insulting, rude, crass. You refuse to look or believe that there may be another point of view - a trait most unbecoming of a scientist. You are acting an athestist fundementalist, waving the banner of "There is no God, and all those who believe in one are idiotic fools!" Science has yet to explain well-documented stigmatas, miracles of medicine and bizarre supernatural incidents. You can choose to believe whatever you wish about them. I will choose to believe what I feel in my heart to be true. I will not preach belief to you if you will not preach non-belief to me. I don't claim to be a scientist, though I do claim to be someone who has had an interest in these matters from my Catholic school days through to agnosticism and eventually atheism. I have acknowledged that there are other points of view, and have acknowledged that religion can provide comfort and even good. I do not say that "those who believe are idiotic fools", I merely say that I believe they are wrong, and I say so. I even think I can explain to them why they believe. You are right when you say that "science has yet to explain ..." and it is going to be very difficult to disprove that Christ did not rise from the dead, that our lady of Fatima did not appear to the innocent children, and that Joan of Arc had god on her side when she was defeated and burned at the stake. If you are going to maintain your beliefs in miracles until science has disproved these "bizarre supernatural incidents", then you are going to be mired in your mindset forever. I am asking you not to relinquish your religion, but to rely not so much on your heart, but on your rational thinking processes. That's the problem. Nothing I could ever say to you would ever have you believe that I have given careful thought to my religion. You believe only that religion is wrong, that those who believe it are wrong, and you see nothing else. That is why you are not a scientist, which you brought up, but you are the same as a Christian fundie. Just on the other end of the spectrum. You can not prove that God does not exist and I can not prove that He does. Therefore, neither of us are wrong and neither of us are right. I simply wish that the fundies on both sides of the debate would learn this and respect each other.

WingedMercury -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:30:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia quote: Oh dear. This is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever seen. No wonder US is in Iraq at present. All the perceptions of the Deep South suddenly seem so real. ever have an employer come up to you and ask about "The Battle at Valley Forge" or "Custer's Last Stand"? it may be good for those who "want" to study it, but it has no place in the work force. Oh bullshit! The more you know the better you are. Right now you come off a willfully ignorant slob who either cares nothing to learn or lacks the ability to. The higher up you go, the more you will find people are interested in promoting those willing to learn. Besides, if you don't have a working knowledge of the history of your country, you really can't understand anything about it now. I find myself drawing upon my knowledge of history all the time. Being able to reference history makes you a well-rounded person, more intelligent, and a more desirable mate. Please don't just confine your history to the USA. The world is a big place, and understanding the history and cultures of other countries will make the USA a better and more tolerant place.

Sinergy -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:33:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy I have had employers mention to other employees that their approach to dealing with an issue would result in a Phyrric victory for the company. Oooo...awesome reference. I had to look that one up. Where would we be without the ability to learn from history... Sinergy

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:34:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury I am in my 60s and have travelled the world several times. I can assure that I have more exposure than what you suggest. *Why is a scientist "no better" than a christian fundamentalist, with all their wretched beliefs?* Answer me. Don'd duck. But don't make blunt assertions, support what you say with argument. Where did this come from? I don't believe anyone said that a scientist is no better than a Christian fundamentalist. They each have their place, and you seem to be making a case that anyone who believes in God or says that they will pray for you is a Christian "fundamentalist". However, I will point out to you that you seem to assert that a "science based" life choice is "better" than anyone who may also have a "faith based" lifestyle. Especially since you are stating that their beliefs are wretched. I have no problem combining both of these concepts, and most of the people I know have the same mindset. Angry much? What is your problem? Most of the people you know have the same mindset. Of course. That is part of the culture that has been allowed to develop in your part of the world. The fact that most of the people I know think that Christian fundamentalists are "crazies" and world wide opinion polls indicate a high and increasing lack of respect for your part of the world, partly because of christian fundamentalism, then this should cause you to undertake intensive introspection. If "most people I know" gives some sort of credence to your argument, then "most people in the world" should really have an effect on your thought processes. "Most people I know" might give you comfort, just as soaking your brain in warm religion might as well, but it is hardly a rational argument. But then, we are back to rationality again, aren't we. Have faith that you are right, if that is what you need. Please come to live here and experience every day life in My country before you start touting "world wide opinion". Opinions are based upon what information you are given. If you don't have all the information you might easily subscribe to a misinformed opinion. Ya know? I am not living in some sheltered little corner of the country. My every day experiences are quite similar to the bulk of the United States. Therefore, I have to say that your take on the fact that My country is being overtaken by the Christian funamendalist "crazies", , and they are the guiding force, is dead wrong. You are being spoon fed what sells the most interesting news. The only "group decision" that I have been made to suffer is the one wherein I can no longer smoke in public because those crazies are not content to give Me My space, but must have all the space for themselves. And that, "WingedMercury" had absolutely nothing to do with religion. Edited to add: By the way, I am not a Christian Fundamentalist "crazy". And most of the Christians in this country do not fall into that category. You seem to infer that I must be, since I do believe in a higher being and I also support the right of people to have a dignified right to their personal faith without being told they are less than intelligent and are belittling themselves by such an admission.

WingedMercury -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:34:58 PM)
With all that scientifice reasoning, poor old AquaticSub will still be immersed in holy water. There are a lot of words in your post, aSlavesLife, and I commend you for it. Most people would have just settled for an insult.

AquaticSub -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:35:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury I guess it comes down to "is logical 'better' than illogical". If you think illogicality is 'better', then we have reached the bedrock of our disagreement. There is little more to discuss. Logic often has little to do with the way people live their lives, and that does not only apply to religion. You are endorsing that we don't act logically? What sadness! Join with me. Campaign for the brain! The way people live their lives is usually based on what will maximise their own comfort. This is usually achieved rationally/logically (eonomists, for instance, model according to the "rational man"). A lot of people act irrationally, and that is what I am railing against. Love is irrational. Kindness is irrational. I gain nothing but a warm feeling when I buy a homeless man a meal. You can say it's selfish, but I lose that money to put towards a new CD. In this way, I am all for irrationality for it brings me more happiness then the cold and unfeeling mistress that logic is. You may have her all to yourself.

AquaticSub -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:37:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia quote: Oh dear. This is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever seen. No wonder US is in Iraq at present. All the perceptions of the Deep South suddenly seem so real. ever have an employer come up to you and ask about "The Battle at Valley Forge" or "Custer's Last Stand"? it may be good for those who "want" to study it, but it has no place in the work force. Oh bullshit! The more you know the better you are. Right now you come off a willfully ignorant slob who either cares nothing to learn or lacks the ability to. The higher up you go, the more you will find people are interested in promoting those willing to learn. Besides, if you don't have a working knowledge of the history of your country, you really can't understand anything about it now. I find myself drawing upon my knowledge of history all the time. Being able to reference history makes you a well-rounded person, more intelligent, and a more desirable mate. Please don't just confine your history to the USA. The world is a big place, and understanding the history and cultures of other countries will make the USA a better and more tolerant place. I realize we are in the middle of debate but please don't assume too much. I was making a point about history being applicable to his world today. He does not live in another country, he lives in America and if he thinks learning history is pointless, I doubt I'll be able to convince him on the fine points of Ancient Eygpt and how we owe so much of our government to ancient Rome and Greece. However, if you want to try, I'd love to watch.

AquaticSub -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:39:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury With all that scientifice reasoning, poor old AquaticSub will still be immersed in holy water. There are a lot of words in your post, aSlavesLife, and I commend you for it. Most people would have just settled for an insult. I see you have no interest in actual debate. I take my leave of you now. Thin insults are pathetic excuses for science.

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