RE: prayer in schools

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GoddessDustyGold -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:47:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury I have acknowledged that there are other points of view, and have acknowledged that religion can provide comfort and even good. I do not say that "those who believe are idiotic fools", I merely say that I believe they are wrong, and I say so. I even think I can explain to them why they believe. You are right when you say that "science has yet to explain ..." and it is going to be very difficult to disprove that Christ did not rise from the dead, that our lady of Fatima did not appear to the innocent children, and that Joan of Arc had god on her side when she was defeated and burned at the stake. If you are going to maintain your beliefs in miracles until science has disproved these "bizarre supernatural incidents", then you are going to be mired in your mindset forever. I am asking you not to relinquish your religion, but to rely not so much on your heart, but on your rational thinking processes. This is where we differ, WingedMercury. I believe I have read the tone and attiude that does say "those who believe are idiotic fools". And you may have acknowledged that there are other points of view, but those points of view have aboslutely no value and earn no respect in your world. And you finish to above post with the the request that we rely less on our heart and more on our rational thinking processes. Yet, I believe I already do that to a great extent, and I can still have a comfortable marriage of both sides. You are the one who feels this is not possible, and it is either all or nothing on both sides. For if we were to rely on our rational thinking as you say we should, then we could come to no other conclusion but that anything regarding a higher power is just so much crap. Who is proselityzing here? Not I. Edited to shorten the quotes for space

WingedMercury -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:48:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury I am in my 60s and have travelled the world several times. I can assure that I have more exposure than what you suggest. *Why is a scientist "no better" than a christian fundamentalist, with all their wretched beliefs?* Answer me. Don'd duck. But don't make blunt assertions, support what you say with argument. Where did this come from? I don't believe anyone said that a scientist is no better than a Christian fundamentalist. They each have their place, and you seem to be making a case that anyone who believes in God or says that they will pray for you is a Christian "fundamentalist". However, I will point out to you that you seem to assert that a "science based" life choice is "better" than anyone who may also have a "faith based" lifestyle. Especially since you are stating that their beliefs are wretched. I have no problem combining both of these concepts, and most of the people I know have the same mindset. Angry much? What is your problem? Most of the people you know have the same mindset. Of course. That is part of the culture that has been allowed to develop in your part of the world. The fact that most of the people I know think that Christian fundamentalists are "crazies" and world wide opinion polls indicate a high and increasing lack of respect for your part of the world, partly because of christian fundamentalism, then this should cause you to undertake intensive introspection. If "most people I know" gives some sort of credence to your argument, then "most people in the world" should really have an effect on your thought processes. "Most people I know" might give you comfort, just as soaking your brain in warm religion might as well, but it is hardly a rational argument. But then, we are back to rationality again, aren't we. Have faith that you are right, if that is what you need. Please come to live here and experience every day life in My country before you start touting "world wide opinion". Opinions are based upon what information you are given. If you don't have all the information you might easily subscribe to a misinformed opinion. Ya know? I am not living in some sheltered little corner of the country. My every day experiences are quite similar to the bulk of the United States. Therefore, I have to say that your take on the fact that My country is being overtaken by the Christian funamendalist "crazies", , and they are the guiding force, is dead wrong. You are being spoon fed what sells the most interesting news. The only "group decision" that I have been made to suffer is the one wherein I can no longer smoke in public because those crazies are not content to give Me My space, but must have all the space for themselves. And that, "WingedMercury" had absolutely nothing to do with religion. Are you inviting me to come to stay with you in Arizona? That would be good, and I thank you. I will be in US again later this year, and I will be going to the Grand Canyon again - one of the wonders of the world and you can stand and gaze of millions of years of change. I have not seen much of AZ, only that part between Las Vegas and the canyon, but enjoying Route 66 and Flagstaff. Phoenix and Tucson would be of interest, though I have always thought they could be described as "god forsaken". But I would need a smoke free room. Certainly on my travels around the South Eastern states, New Mexico, Louisiana, Florida and so on, I was amazed and slightly distressed at the extent of the religious fundamentalism. The amount of money the religious right contribute to election funds, for instance, also give the impression that they wield a lot a power. I am not sure how much you have travelled around USA, but I can tell you there is amazing contrasts between, say, CA, WA, MA, NY and the "red" states.

Sinergy -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:52:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Love is irrational. Kindness is irrational. I gain nothing but a warm feeling when I buy a homeless man a meal. You can say it's selfish, but I lose that money to put towards a new CD. In this way, I am all for irrationality for it brings me more happiness then the cold and unfeeling mistress that logic is. You may have her all to yourself. Bob Dylan was interviewed in the most recent Rolling Stone (40 year edition) and he made a fascinating comment when asked about his religious views. He basically told Jann Wenner that he was not going to answer the question. When pressed, he indicated that as he got older he saw so many religions on this planet turn away from faith. I completely understood what he meant by that statement. Faith, to me, is the deep, core belief that there is a reason for my, your, their, everybody and everything's existence. It is not rational. Faith does not require me to understand it. It does not need to give me a reason for it's being. It is what it is. Religion, to me, is the attempt by other people to get me to sign on to their version of what it all means. In my time here, I have met one minister / preacher (temporary; while they searched for a full time person) of a church who might have been able to teach me something about my own connection with the divine, but the congregation felt that the work of God would be better served by hiring some yahoo from the deep south whose first speech was about how horrible it was that gay people might get married. I never went back. My faith requires that I abstain from active or passive bigotry against people I do not understand. My faith does not require that you believe it as well. My faith is personal to me and not only has nothing to do with you, for the most part, it is not really something I feel a need to explain. My faith also does not require me to be involved in an organized religion. Most organized religions I have studied or been involved with seem to cheapen and render meaningless that faith by attaching it to idiotic causes furthered by the person everybody in the room looks up to. Sinergy

dcnovice -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:52:57 PM)
quote: The issue is not that they (folks who fight to make sure school prayer is not completely eliminated) want to make sure THEIR kids pray enough, if that was the case they have the control at home to make them pray 16 hours a day and all day Saturday and Sunday. The problem is they want to make sure YOUR kid prays enough, and to the "RIGHT" diety. Well said, Archer. Thanks!

MissSCD -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:53:35 PM)
Do we not talk about BDSM anymore in this forum? Prayer is an individual choice. We as families are responsible to educate and take our children to church. My mother still drags me to to church, but I enjoy it. It gives me something to focus on when things don't make sence. We need prayer in schools, but it has been thrown out and now look what has happened? It still doesn't mean it will change things, but it is a good foundation for anyone. Regards, MissSCD

AquaticSub -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:00:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy My faith does not require that you believe it as well. My faith is personal to me and not only has nothing to do with you, for the most part, it is not really something I feel a need to explain. My faith also does not require me to be involved in an organized religion. Most organized religions I have studied or been involved with seem to cheapen and render meaningless that faith by attaching it to idiotic causes furthered by the person everybody in the room looks up to. Sinergy Very well said. For the most part, I am not involved with the Christian church. The Christian faith is simply what I identify with and feel.... "most right" with, having tried others. I can no more explain why then I can explain why my favorite color is green.[:)]

Invictus754 -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:01:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Oh yeah! and that it really, really sucked to be Joseph. Yeah, that god guy can be a tough act to follow. "Joseph, you're not as good as god was. Now THAT was heavenly!"

dcnovice -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:02:12 PM)
quote: Where would we be without the ability to learn from history... Iraq?

Sinergy -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:02:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy My faith does not require that you believe it as well. My faith is personal to me and not only has nothing to do with you, for the most part, it is not really something I feel a need to explain. My faith also does not require me to be involved in an organized religion. Most organized religions I have studied or been involved with seem to cheapen and render meaningless that faith by attaching it to idiotic causes furthered by the person everybody in the room looks up to. Sinergy Very well said. For the most part, I am not involved with the Christian church. The Christian faith is simply what I identify with and feel.... "most right" with, having tried others. I can no more explain why then I can explain why my favorite color is green.[:)] I have studied a lot of religions in my time here, I was not singling out Christianity... Sinergy

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:05:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury Are you inviting me to come to stay with you in Arizona? That would be good, and I thank you. I will be in US again later this year, and I will be going to the Grand Canyon again - one of the wonders of the world and you can stand and gaze of millions of years of change. I have not seen much of AZ, only that part between Las Vegas and the canyon, but enjoying Route 66 and Flagstaff. Phoenix and Tucson would be of interest, though I have always thought they could be described as "god forsaken". But I would need a smoke free room. Certainly on my travels around the South Eastern states, New Mexico, Louisiana, Florida and so on, I was amazed and slightly distressed at the extent of the religious fundamentalism. The amount of money the religious right contribute to election funds, for instance, also give the impression that they wield a lot a power. I am not sure how much you have travelled around USA, but I can tell you there is amazing contrasts between, say, CA, WA, MA, NY and the "red" states. By all means, please do let Me know when you are visiting this bastion of "god forsaken" territory. Why is it "god forsaken" in your opinion, anyway? And you will not have any problem finding your "smoke free" room. I am the one who has the problem finding a room in which I may smoke. I love the Grand Canyon Myself, and I haven't had an opportunity to visit "God's beautiful work" in some time. LOL If that is a veiled way to get Me to cop to the fact the mankind did not come into being until 6,000 years ago you failed! I have never believed that, but it doesn't take away My faith that there is an "Intelligent Design". That may be a hard concept for you, but it is true nonetheless. And...Gasp... it is not an unusual concept. It can be dangerous, WingedMercury, to make such assumptions and paint everybody with the same brush. Red states have much less to do with fundamental Christianity and much more to do with personal freedoms and the personal responsibility that goes with it. It is easy to make that error, as many in this country also do, that the only reason certain states are "red" is because we are all religious fanatics. I am a spiritual person, and I do believe in God (and Jesus Christ), but I do not vote based upon religious beliefs. Neither do most of the people I know. Render unto Caesar, and all that. I just prefer to render much less than I am being forced to render, and I try to vote accordingly. Some day, that might even work! Smile

Invictus754 -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:07:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FelinePersuasion How is offering to pray for someone them belittling themself? And exactly how are they insulting you? by what, not being sensitive to the fact you might not pray? Most christians assume everyone is christian. If a pedophile came up to you and showed you pictures of six year olds having sex (assuming you were a pedophile also) you most likely would be offended. Am I wrong?

aSlavesLife -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:09:19 PM)
Being a native of the south, I would have to say that the take on the fundamentalists being a guiding force is dead on, especially in the southern states. The 10 commandments in an Alabama courthouse, creationism in Kansas schools, and a Wiccan student being expelled from a Texas school for wearing a pentacle are just a few examples. Things aren't so bad in the northern part of the U.S., but my slave was amazed at the number of churches present in every town down here. One nearby town has a population of under 4,000, and has 23 churches. Most of them have lighted signs that display messages of intolerance such as " It is Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. "

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:14:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy Faith, to me, is the deep, core belief that there is a reason for my, your, their, everybody and everything's existence. It is not rational. Faith does not require me to understand it. It does not need to give me a reason for it's being. It is what it is. Religion, to me, is the attempt by other people to get me to sign on to their version of what it all means. In my time here, I have met one minister / preacher (temporary; while they searched for a full time person) of a church who might have been able to teach me something about my own connection with the divine, but the congregation felt that the work of God would be better served by hiring some yahoo from the deep south whose first speech was about how horrible it was that gay people might get married. I never went back. My faith requires that I abstain from active or passive bigotry against people I do not understand. My faith does not require that you believe it as well. My faith is personal to me and not only has nothing to do with you, for the most part, it is not really something I feel a need to explain. My faith also does not require me to be involved in an organized religion. Most organized religions I have studied or been involved with seem to cheapen and render meaningless that faith by attaching it to idiotic causes furthered by the person everybody in the room looks up to. Sinergy Applause...Applause! I don't often agree with you Sinergy, but I could not have described this better Myself.

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:26:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Invictus754 quote: ORIGINAL: FelinePersuasion How is offering to pray for someone them belittling themself? And exactly how are they insulting you? by what, not being sensitive to the fact you might not pray? Most christians assume everyone is christian. If a pedophile came up to you and showed you pictures of six year olds having sex (assuming you were a pedophile also) you most likely would be offended. Am I wrong? Wondering why you assume that if someone says "my prayers are with you" that automatically makes them Christian.

goodlittlegirl28 -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:30:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Invictus754 quote: ORIGINAL: FelinePersuasion How is offering to pray for someone them belittling themself? And exactly how are they insulting you? by what, not being sensitive to the fact you might not pray? Most christians assume everyone is christian. If a pedophile came up to you and showed you pictures of six year olds having sex (assuming you were a pedophile also) you most likely would be offended. Am I wrong? Even a pedophile knows that being a pedophile is wrong. Being a christian isn't necessarily wrong, it just isn't everyone's choice. I would be no more offended to be taken for a christian, a muslim, a wiccan, an athiest... If you think prayer is a significant, positive force, more power to you. Pray for me in any religion you like.

Invictus754 -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:38:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Being able to reference history makes you a well-rounded person, more intelligent, and a more desirable mate. OMG...you made me laugh so hard. Seriously - history makes you better looking to your mate? Is their IQ less than 60? "Wow, beautiful, you are tho thmart! That History makesth your hair so purty!" Top 10 slogans of the century: Diamonds are forever - just like history (DeBeers) Just do it - learn history(Nike) History - The pause that refreshes (Coca-Cola) History - Tastes great, less filling (Miller Lite) We try harder - to learn history (Avis) History - Good to the last drop - just like bombing in WWII (Maxwell House) History - Breakfast of champions. (Wheaties) Does she ... or doesn't she (know her history)? (Clairol) When it rains it pours - just like Hurricane Floyd in 1999(Morton Salt) Where's the beef? (If you know your History...cattle are raised in the Midwest...)(Wendy's)

Invictus754 -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:42:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold Guess they all conveniently forgot about their WWJD bracelets they so proudly wear. I've got my WWJD bracelet! (What Would Judas Do?)

Invictus754 -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:53:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold Wondering why you assume that if someone says "my prayers are with you" that automatically makes them Christian. Playing the odds. You don't find many Hindus in America saying "I'll pray for you."

aSlavesLife -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:55:27 PM)
I like the WWYS bracelets. Who Would Yahweh Smite.

Invictus754 -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 6:59:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: goodlittlegirl28 Even a pedophile knows that being a pedophile is wrong. Being a pedophile is not right or wrong, it just is. Just like the multiverse. However, it IS considered to be wrong and punishable by this society's rules. quote: Being a christian isn't necessarily wrong, it just isn't everyone's choice. That is your opinion, and you are wrong. quote: I would be no more offended to be taken for a christian, a muslim, a wiccan, an athiest... If you think prayer is a significant, positive force, more power to you. I don't think prayer is significant or positive. It is a waste of time because it does not give the result that is required - usually when that result is needed most. So then you get the wailing "Why did god let this happen? How could a just god do this?" type of reaction. quote: Pray for me in any religion you like. Education is better for you, and gives much better results. [:D]

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