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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/27/2007 5:42:56 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Yes, "restore" (give them) their right to challenge. Lets see them charged, put on trial and sentenced/released.
OR
Lets give them their rights as POWs, meaning no criminal charges and they are imprisoned for the duration but without the inhumane treatment et al.

Right now, and for the several years passed since it started, this whole episode has in no small way contributed to the incredibly bad PR the US is enjoying around the world, and has equally contibuted to removing any moral high ground the US might have occupied. As the 51st state, this affects us in the UK too.

E


The 51st state? You must be fuckin' joking.

It affects Britain because the US government has sanctioned the torture of British citizens, and at a stretch you could argue it gives Britain a bad name to be associated with such a government. That last part of the sentence I grant you. That's about it. 

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/27/2007 6:41:22 AM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Sorry NG, but we are.

Whatever Bush wants to do, we do it too, or help, or turn a blind eye. We are associated so closely as to be the same enemy for those who see us as such, whatever those of us on both sides of the Atlantic feel personally about the matters in hand.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/27/2007 10:22:56 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		If some people want to let those prisoners go why don't we fly them all to Saudi-Arabia.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/27/2007 10:32:30 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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"If some people want to let those prisoners go why don't we fly them all to Saudi-Arabia."

Not necessary. Due Process is sufficient anywhere you see an American Flag denoting America's Jurisdiction.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 1:09:31 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Sorry NG, but we are.



You mean you are. Many people in this country detest being associated with the US government and their policies. They're a pack of criminals, and that is exactly how many people view them. I've no idea why anyone of any nationality - including American - would want to be associated with their policies, but if you do personally, then good luck.


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 4:25:22 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Sorry NG, but we are.



You mean you are. Many people in this country detest being associated with the US government and their policies. They're a pack of criminals, and that is exactly how many people view them. I've no idea why anyone of any nationality - including American - would want to be associated with their policies, but if you do personally, then good luck.



You should lay off the Newcastle Brown NG. Your team might be getting hammered this afternoon, but its traditional to drown sorrows and get into a fight after the result is in.

I believe I have indicated more than sufficiently my views of the current US administration, and my views of the current UK administration that aids and abets it. But like it or not, the world doesnt take my view, your view or any of us plebs' views into account when judging the UK, it looks at the action of our government, in deep with a pack of criminals as you describe them, and there judges all Brits as guilty by association in the same way that it judges all Americans as guilty by commission. Did the July bombers ask any of the people on the tube their views before killing them? No, because in their minds and in the minds of those who trained and programmed them, all Brits are enemies.

Given then, that our government so closely follows whatever the US policy is, and that we all are thereby deemed guilty alike with the US, then as far as the world is concerned, and particularly those who for good reason are enemies, we are the same country, thus making us the 51st state to all intents and purposes in this regard.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 4:47:29 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Sorry NG, but we are.



You mean you are. Many people in this country detest being associated with the US government and their policies. They're a pack of criminals, and that is exactly how many people view them. I've no idea why anyone of any nationality - including American - would want to be associated with their policies, but if you do personally, then good luck.



You should lay off the Newcastle Brown NG. Your team might be getting hammered this afternoon, but its traditional to drown sorrows and get into a fight after the result is in.

I believe I have indicated more than sufficiently my views of the current US administration, and my views of the current UK administration that aids and abets it. But like it or not, the world doesnt take my view, your view or any of us plebs' views into account when judging the UK, it looks at the action of our government, in deep with a pack of criminals as you describe them, and there judges all Brits as guilty by association in the same way that it judges all Americans as guilty by commission. Did the July bombers ask any of the people on the tube their views before killing them? No, because in their minds and in the minds of those who trained and programmed them, all Brits are enemies.

Given then, that our government so closely follows whatever the US policy is, and that we all are thereby deemed guilty alike with the US, then as far as the world is concerned, and particularly those who for good reason are enemies, we are the same country, thus making us the 51st state to all intents and purposes in this regard.

E


a) Wrong team Ellen and we won 3-2 last night - we now just have to win our final game of the season to go up, or Derby lose at Palace today, so all is rosy in the garden on that front.
b) Newcastle Brown Ale is dishwater. I wouldn't use the stuff to water my plants (if I had some plants).
c) You have the opinion that we're a state of the US, people in far off lands may have the opinion we're closely associated. Certain sections of this country may think there's a connection.

In my opinion, the only significant connection is two mutually aggressive governments. I'm willing to bet that when asked, just about everyone in Britain would say we are not, never have been, and never will be anything remotely resembling a 51st state. In terms of the population of Britons, you're out on a limb here, and I'd be very surprised if the people in foreign countries lack the geographical and historical knowledge to know Britain is a small nation off the North West coast of Europe, while the US is the big one near Canada and Mexico i.e. thousands of miles away.

P.S. Britons have been deemed to be enemies because of the actions of the British government - it's nothing to do with the actions of the US government. Let's take responsibility for our own government. If we want to be perceived as a decent bunch by people in other countries then we need to rein in our government and the rest will take care of itself.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 5:12:22 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		a) you need to find a better team; one that can beat Roma's pants off for instance. And before you say anything, Ive followed them since 1975, when I really hurt my poor grandad (an avid Wolves supporter) with my preferences. If I'd been a little older and more grown up, and known he'd die within the year, I'd have refrained, but I was only 7 at the time.

b) Agreed. (see? there is something we can agree on) 

c) I dont have that opinion, that is how I perceive we are seen, according to our national actions and attitudes by way of our governmental decisions and policies. There are far too many differences between us and the US for any possible accession to even be considered, yet we share much too.

I'd ask for your statistically significant population survey source about the views of the majority of the population, but thats not my style to get bogged down in such pedantry. I would say that youre correct, in that most Brits wouldnt consider us an offshore US state, but thats not my point - its how we are perceived.

Yes, of course its our government that makes its own decisions and must be judged accordingly. Our government made the decision to back the US in Iraq, but lets not make the mistake of thinking we are in anywhere near as deep as the US, nor that the world holds our contribution as equal. The US is making the running and we are there in support - we're not really necessary, as the US could have done the Basra operation without us. The world views the US as the aggressor here, and us as the ally of the aggressor and therefore the same as the aggressor.

As for geographical awareness, I can tell you some tales about that; degree educated recruits who had absolutely no idea of European geography, which is a requirement for running trucks about the place all in all. The world to the average Brit, going from the recruitment tests I ran with educated people, has Britain as a huge place, with Ireland, the US and Australia just off the coast, NZ and Canada a little further away and Europe somewhere near Japan.

I'd be very much interested in your ideas for how we keep control of the government so that we can be judged as decent people. We get to vote every few years and thats it. We had a clear majority against Iraq in terms of the population, yet in we went regardless, and nothing that I or you could do or did, make a blind bit of difference.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 6:17:45 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

a) you need to find a better team; one that can beat Roma's pants off for instance. And before you say anything, Ive followed them since 1975, when I really hurt my poor grandad (an avid Wolves supporter) with my preferences. If I'd been a little older and more grown up, and known he'd die within the year, I'd have refrained, but I was only 7 at the time.



The football club is a representation of the community. Good and bad, better or worse ain't in it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

b) Agreed. (see? there is something we can agree on) 



Oh we agree on a few things, how could we not - from the same country, must have some similarity in background and outlook.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I would say that youre correct, in that most Brits wouldnt consider us an offshore US state, but thats not my point - its how we are perceived.



That is my point, too. Perception is not reality, so people can perceive as they see fit, but to say "we are the 51st state" is not a statement of fact, and is built purely on the perceived perception of people in other countries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'd be very much interested in your ideas for how we keep control of the government so that we can be judged as decent people. We get to vote every few years and thats it. We had a clear majority against Iraq in terms of the population, yet in we went regardless, and nothing that I or you could do or did, make a blind bit of difference.

E


Ah yes, the not so subtle "it's ok moaning about it, but do you have a solution". As a matter of fact, I do have answers and I've posted them all over this board at various times. When a thread comes up about how we rein in the government, I'll be in like a furret, so we can have the chat then.

Apologies for the thread hijack to all.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 6:41:52 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Unfortunately NG, I would contend that perceptions are what counts - but thats a whole philosophical / psychological / metaphysical debate unto itself.

We two have different perceptions of many things, and we share certain perceptions of some things. That which we share, we might say between the two of us are actuality, but clearly where our perceptions vary, actuality can be either what one of us perceives (the other being in error in that regard) or indeed we two may be totally incorrect, and a third person may have perception of actuality, or actuality may be something entirely different to either of the three perceptions thereby gathered.

The situation is, that people act on their perceptions, for to the people concerned, their perception is actuality.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 7:19:21 AM   
lockedaway


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Status: offline 		Of course...you're wrong. :)  The 14th Amendment does not apply to forgeign soldiers and equally does not apply to terrorists.  I find it so dismally dismaying when Americans want to dilute the rights that U.S. citizens enjoy, and IS THEIR BIRTH RIGHT, by applying them to everyone in the world.  

The rights of the detainees are found in the Geneva Convention if  they are found at all.  Has it ever dawned on anyone that soldiers get the rights they get because they are citizens of another country?  Therefore, there is a government in place that negotiates for the cessation of aggression and the return of their captured soldiers.  The POWs are returned after the war.  (If they decide to leave, of course, many Germans held in this country decided to stay.)  Wouldn't you say that with terrorists it is a bit different?

A terrorist has no one to answer to and no one speaks for them.  They deny their involvement, etc., and it is left to the prosecuting force to determine their guilt.  Sure, you may have enough evidence for most half-wits to come to the gut feeling that the person was involved in some terrorist activity, but you are a looong way from prosecuting.  So we hold them.    And maybe they get held for a few years.
Tough titty. 

You want these people released?  Here is a letter domestic statistic for you; 93% of felony arrests lead to a conviction of some crime.  You think these detainees are blameless?  Do you really think they are just common folks like you and me that were waiting for the bus to go to work in the morning??  Here's what happens when you let them go.  They go back to the middle east, Indonesia, the Sudan, where ever and they start again.  They were unsuccessful in whatever they were doing and they got caught.  Maybe they will be successful the next time.  It doesn't have to be a 9/11 situation, how about just another Lockerbie or two?  Right?

Keep them detained.  They are not U.S. citizens and they do not receive 14th Amendment protections.  They are not foreign soldiers and they do not receive protections under the Geneva Convention either.  They are suspected terrorists. 

I don't know what the solution is.  People being detained indefinitely because the government has only so much in the way of evidence is not a good situation.  Having these people re-establishing themselves in terrorist cells is a worse situation.  Five years in Gitmo is an easy trade when you might get to kill a few thousand infidels and meet Allah and have 40 virgins, yadda, yadda, yadda.  The solution, of course, is determining the truth is concerning the nature of the detainee's involvement with terrorist activities. I don't know how effective sodium pentathol is.  I know that polygraph tests work extremely well on the untrained.  Either way, I wouldn't want to bet the lives of a few thousand Americans on it. 

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 7:20:32 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

Of course...you're wrong. :) The 14th Amendment does not apply to forgeign soldiers and equally does not apply to terrorists.


That's in interesting way to interpret the 2 words "ANY PERSON".

Perhaps you need to go back to primary school, and learn what:

ANY

and

PERSON

mean.

Because you obviously don't understand those 2 words. And if you can't properly understand the words "ANY" and "PERSON" it's likely the rest of your understanding is flawed.

Oh, and via the Declaration of Independence, rights don't come from THE GOVERNMENT, to decide who gets them.

They come from "Our Creator".

"People being detained indefinitely because the government has only so much in the way of evidence is not a good situation. Having these people re-establishing themselves in terrorist cells is a worse situation. "

And that's the WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF A HABEAS CORPUS HEARING, isn't it?


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/28/2007 7:24:31 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 7:36:44 AM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
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Status: offline 		Get bent.  READ the constitution.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I need to go to primary school.  Only one of us is stupid.

"People being detained indefinitely because the government has only so much in the way of evidence is not a good situation. Having these people re-establishing themselves in terrorist cells is a worse situation. "

And that's the WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF A HABEAS CORPUS HEARING, isn't it?

Wrong again!!  Read the rest of the post.  We aren't ready to produce the detainees and so they remain detained.

You want them released because of the pressure that you and your ilk places on the government?  If one of them is released and goes on to kill a bunch of folks, will you acknowledge that have their blood on your hands?  No...you won't because you are missing the "accountability gene".  But it would be there nonetheless.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 7:46:24 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Get bent. READ the constitution.


OH, that's it. You can't PARSE a clause properly. I'll help. THE FIRST SENTENCE IS A DIFFERENT SENTENCE FROM THE SECOND SENTENCE.

The "PERIOD" is used to indicate this.

By removing the sentence irrelevant to our discussion, we obtain:


Section 1.:

FIRST SENTENCE: [discussion of Citizenship deleted]

SECOND SENTENCE: No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

See that Flag over GITMO? That's US Jurisdiction, and since the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is subordinate to the State, and People, then OBVIOUSLY any requirement of a State is inclusive on the subordinate Federal government.


quote:


I need to go to primary school. Only one of us is stupid.


That's what I said. Forgetting what PERIODS do is a newbie mistake.

There's no point in responding to anything which follows. It's pointless to waste the time on you.


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 7:49:11 AM   
Eric15237


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Status: offline 		First, can any of you nitwits tell me the difference between the beliefs of a Sunni and a Shiite Muslim? Would one of you know what the "Third wave of Islam is?"Can any of you deliniate the 3 ways a Muslim can deal with an infidel according to the Koran? I thought not A literal translation of the Koran says that infidels must be forcibly converted to the only faith and serve as 2nd class citizens for the remainder of their days, Infidels can be enslaved or put to the sword (killed)..

The people imprisoned at Guatanemo are "foreign combatants" captured on "the field of battle" in a foreign country. They have no nexus for US jurisdiction other than they were engaged in combat and were captured. If any of you served in the US Armed Forces, shame on you for forgetting your education in the Rules of Land Warfare which actually control this situation and are internationally recognized and which the US is following. If you haven't served and have no idea which laws apply, pleased read before picking up your info from the equally poorly informed press and running off at the mouth.

One of the more interesting current paradoxes is that the so-called internation human rights groups are happy to condemn the US for it's treatment of the detainees, where most if not all have gained weight, obtained long deferred dental and medical treatment and can have a guard courtmartialed for "abusing a koran" by merely placing his infidel hands and eyes upon it to inspect it for contraband, their criticism is noticbly absent for the women who are murdered in "honor killings," the forced female mutilations, the oppression, persecution and killing of smaller ethnic minorities, the mass murders and genocide of Saadam, his well documented use of "real torture" like pulling out peoples tounges and "rape rooms,"and the national network of informers and secret police that sowed seeds of dissension and exacerbated the divisions between Shiite, Sunni and Kurd which are really driving the violence in Iraq today.

Finally, if withdrawl is the way to go, do you really believe that that will end this new wave of Islamo-fascisim?

I am beginning to lose my faith in Darwin. There are so many mouthy, ignorant, poorly informed and unread people who believe the fodder from the press that we will likely end up with another series of horrific attacks in the US and UK before long. That is not fear mongering, it is the express written opinion of OBL. Save us from morons. Here endeth the reading of the word.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 7:51:58 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

First, can any of you nitwits tell me the difference between the beliefs of a Sunni and a Shiite Muslim?


Is the rightful succession from Muhammad to Ali.





_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 7:54:06 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

before picking up your info from the equally poorly informed press and running off at the mouth.


MY information comes DIRECTLY from the Constitution. I don't need anyone to interpret it for me, it's all perfectly clearly written, and if it's not delegated, then it's not a Lawful function.

Period.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Eric15237)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 7:55:18 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

Can any of you deliniate the 3 ways a Muslim can deal with an infidel according to the Koran?


As I've never done my own translation, and don't read the original , I can't tell you.

What did you learn when you did your translation from the original?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Eric15237)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 7:56:18 AM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		Here's another section of the constitution for you:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Ok...now I know this is tough for you.  Try to focus.  "It starts with We the people of the United States..."  Got it?  It doesn't start with "We the people of Sri Lanka" or "We the people of some amorphous world body..."  Do you understand?
Ok...let's continue.  "in order to form a more perfect union,".  STOP!  Ok...when they are talking about forming a more perfect union, they are talking about the United States.  I know, it loses you there but it if for this FUCKING COUNTRY!
Oooops...scuse me.  Let's go on, Fargle.  "...establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity,".  Ok...establish justice, that is pretty clear, isn't it?  "Insure domesitic tranquility" you understand that part, right?  You have a concept of domestic tranquility and it doesn't involved 3,300 people getting eviscerated in office buildings, does it?  Ok..."provide for the common defense" that would be the defense that is common to all of us Americans...right?  It isn't for the common defense of Bulgaria, is it?  I know, you are getting sleepy.  Stay with me.  "Promote the general welfare" and no, Fargle, that does not mean that we are going to pony up and pay the rent on your trailer.   But, like the "Big Fig" here is the tricky part; "and secure blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."  WAKE UP!  There it is!!!  We secure the blessings of liberty to OURSELVES (that would be American citizens at the time) and our POSTERITY (those would be the Americans that followed the Americans that wrote it ).  Let's finish and then I'll give you a cookie.  "do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."  ok...see?  It doesn't say it is the Constitution for everybody.  It doesn't say it is the constitution that applies to France as well or Peru.  Do you understand? 

You owe me money to tutor you this way and it is $75.00 per hour.  Call me for the mailing instructions on my watts line.  The number is 1-800-328-7448.

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 7:59:42 AM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		Bravo Eric, good post.  I appreciate your elucidation.  There is a quiz that I will post asking whether people really understand what is happening in Iraq between the sunni and the shia.  It is actually very very complicated but it is a must read.

(in reply to Eric15237)
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