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The submissive is in charge? - 4/30/2005 10:33:42 PM

angelinbondage

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Joined: 1/27/2005
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A friend of mine made a comment during one of our rambling discussions; he said that in a D/s relationship, the sub ultimately has the control. It makes perfect sense to me, but it is the first time I have heard those words come from a master's lips. What is everyone's opinion on this?

Post #: 1

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 4/30/2005 11:29:48 PM

MsSilvie

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I've heard this said also, and I don't agree with it any more than I think one person has all the power in any relationship. A submissive should be able to veto (safeword), but again, in my experience, sometime situations come up where neither the sub or dominant seems to have a lot of control.

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 2

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 4/30/2005 11:51:52 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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I suppose it can depend on the nature of the relationship or even on a particular scene itself. It's not an either/or thing, it's a matter of degrees.

I wouldn't say that ultimately the sub is in charge, or in control, rather I would say that both parties have equal responsibility to make sure that things stay safe, sane, and consensual.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 3

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 1:04:41 AM

ravenna

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This seems to be a fundamental tenet of the SSC gospel (on which i am totally not an expert), that the submissive's consent is the basic condition for the whole power exchange, and if it's withdrawn or put on hold the entire relationship, or at least the scene, comes to a screaming halt, so i've heard lots of people say things like "the bottom is always ultimately in control." Well, maybe it really works that way for submissives, maybe that's a good thing, and maybe that's another thing that makes submissives different from slaves, i don't know -- but i'm a slave, and i'm almost never in control. i do get to offer lots of input and suggestions and ideas and at any given moment we might even be doing a whole thing that i thought up and suggested and figured out the details and got them excited about doing, but once we're launched into action i am NOT in control, and it's NOT up to me where the scene goes or when it stops or where we land when we get there and whether my ass will be sore for a week afterward. And i don't want to be in control, i'm the slave here...

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

Post #: 4

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 1:55:18 AM

ElektraUkM

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Joined: 2/19/2005
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I'm with ravenna on this... i'm a slave too, and there is no way i would ever want to be in control of any situation with Master. The fact he has the control is the whole basis of the relationship. That doesn't mean that he doesn't take account of my feelings, desires, or OUCHes... it means that, ultimately, its his choice what happens, not mine.

~ Elektra

(in reply to ravenna)

Post #: 5

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 2:08:48 AM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelinbondage

A friend of mine made a comment during one of our rambling discussions; he said that in a D/s relationship, the sub ultimately has the control. It makes perfect sense to me, but it is the first time I have heard those words come from a master's lips. What is everyone's opinion on this?

Do not agree.

I take exception to this, because it is the definition of D/s relationship vs BDSM scene.
In a D/s relationship, the dynamic is always in place, and the sub/slave is not in control. Of course I also use a contract, so unless that is broken, there is absolute control during the term of the relationship. One must trust that the contract is reasonable and that the Dom/Domina does not abuse power. Otherwise, IMO, the contract should be broken.
In a BDSM scene, if it is within a relationship, again I don't believe the sub/slave is in control. But there is always the safeword. Hopefully there is reason on the part of the Dom/Domina, and that word will not be invoked.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 6

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 3:35:04 AM

allyC

Posts: 778
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From: Las Vegas
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Hiya :)

I think that in an SM scene, the person on the bottom end often has the security and control of their safeword. In some cases it is for comfort, in others it is for safety only (and for some its non existant) but that "control" or "power" is only as good as the integrity of the dominant weilding the whip. So technically, the sub doesn't really posess the control in a scene, she just possesses a word that may end or pause a scene. Heck, if she's bound up helpless and he's got a knife, I'd say he's the one in control.

As for the D/s or M/s relationship as a whole, I think it will vary depending on the individuals involved and their dynamic.

I've seen relationships where the sub seems to have all of the control and others where he or she appears to have none.

In my case, as long as I remain in my owner's collar (which will be til the day they carry me out in a box), I have no authority whatsoever. I may suggest, beg, counsel, plead, or offer my 2 cents, but in the end it is always, always his decision. The only "control" I have is the ability to walk away from the relationship as a whole and I've been told more than twice that it isn't an option either. *grin*

Every relationship is going to be different and each dynamic will place power and control at different levels on each side but I think that for the most part, the dominant party really has the control.

Well wishes, everyone!

Cav's girl
ally{C}

_____________________________

Once I said to my owner (in a cheeky way after he had done something evil)...

"You know... Master almost rhymes with Bastard."

to which he replied, "Yup, and slave rhymes with cunt."

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 7

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 3:58:53 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
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From: UK
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Electra... ravenna... forgive me if I come across as picky, it isn't my intention.

I thought about not responding to these comments, but in the end, I judged by your other posts that you wouldn't see my response as singling you both out or attacking, just stating how I read your words.

There is no superiority with slave over submissive. There is no superiority submissive over slave. One may be an advancement of another, but they are - not matter how you look at it similar in every way.

I know submissives who have no limits. I know slaves who have them. I know submissives who wear collars 24/7 and slaves who do not. It isn't the label that makes the person - it is the individual.

I am owned, 24/7 (hate that word), 356days a year(and 1 extra at leap year) have been for over 15 years to the same Man - but I am not a slave.

I am a submissive person.

I have no ultimate control, yet I can voice my opinions.

You have as much control as me, in the fact that if the Dominant you are with began to abuse you and insist on something you didn't enjoy or hurt you - You can leave.

If you, just because you(generic) are labeled slave, feel or believe you cannot walk away from a dangerous and/or abusive relationship just because of what you are - that isn't BDSM - that isn't SSC - and it isn't RACK.

That said, is a submissive/slave/kajira/bottom/pet/baby ultimately in control? No - not IMO. There is a huge difference between who is in control, and knowing the reality of abuse. Saying a sub/slave/kajira/bottom/pet/baby ultimately has control is usually said (I have found) by people who are trying to justify what they are because of societies judgements on wiitwd. If they can make outsiders think that us submissive/slave/kajira/bottom/pet/baby are really in control, then we don't look like doormats or abuse victims or whatever the new 'phrase of the moment' is.

We don't need to justify what or who we are to anyone. WIITWD is as natural as mothers milk, and does the same job. It feeds us.

Peace and Love

edited for DANG TYPOS

< Message edited by dark~angel -- 5/1/2005 6:38:12 AM >

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to allyC)

Post #: 8

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 4:42:40 AM

ElektraUkM

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Joined: 2/19/2005
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Hello angel,

I agree ~ i don't see any superiority in any of the roles we have in this lifestyle, neither slave or sub or dom or master or anything else for that matter. They are the positions we've taken up, that's all. They don't make any of us better in any way than anyone else in the lifestyle or anywhere else. Sorry if my comments suggested otherwise.

I think the either-or way of looking at sub and slave is pretty destructive as far as debate goes. No idea whether that will ever be resolved, and to be honest I am not sure it matters. I know what i mean when i talk about my (our) relationship, which is what i was referring to.

quote:

You have as much control as me, in the fact that if the Dominant you are with began to abuse you and insist on something you didn't enjoy or hurt you - You can leave.

Well that is very true, though it seems a little extreme. I have no intention of leaving (even if i wanted to or could) just because he hurt me. I purposely chose this man because after knowing him for a long time, I knew I could trust him never to be abusive or act in a way that wasn't in my best interests. Believe me, I chose carefully because my last relationship (not D/s) was very abusive.

And you're completely correct that I don't feel singled out or offended :)

~ Elektra

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 9

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 5:07:14 AM

Tristan

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Joined: 5/31/2004
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Assuming the relationship is safe, sane, and consentual, then both the submissive and dominant have control over the relationship regardless of whether there are safewords or not. Both are having pyschological and emotional needs fullfilled. Neither would be in a bdsm or D/s relationship otherwise.

There are situations where a submissive might demand to have no control no control over the relationship. Is the submissive forcing the dominant to take control? Not if that's what the dominant also wants. The same is true of dominants requiring what appears to be complete control. If the submissive did not want to give up complete control, then he or she would walk. In most relationships there are some form of negotiation or comprimise.

Dominants who demand complete control are really only finding submissives who want to give up complete control. Again, in the end, this is still a relationship.

(in reply to ElektraUkM)

Post #: 10

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 5:41:00 AM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

A friend of mine made a comment during one of our rambling discussions; he said that in a D/s relationship, the sub ultimately has the control. It makes perfect sense to me, but it is the first time I have heard those words come from a master's lips. What is everyone's opinion on this?

He must be a smart Master.

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 11

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 5:56:12 AM

Oumae

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Joined: 1/4/2005
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I always think this question is a bit like which came first the chicken or the egg? It will depend on how the people involved see it and I dont personally think either view is wrong.

Oumae

_____________________________

Is cuma le fear na mbrog ca leagann se a chos.
( The man with the boots does not mind where he places his foot)

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 12

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 6:05:05 AM

FuriousAngel

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Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelinbondage

A friend of mine made a comment during one of our rambling discussions; he said that in a D/s relationship, the sub ultimately has the control. It makes perfect sense to me, but it is the first time I have heard those words come from a master's lips. What is everyone's opinion on this?

I've heard many Dominants express this theory. To me it comes down the very nitty, gritty reality of life. A slave/sub can't legally be kept without consent. Therefore, if they wish to retract their submission, they can do so - cut and dry. If a submissive wakes up one day and decides she no longer wishes to have a power exchange, she can leave - hence the 'ultimate control' theory.

The way I've always understood this theory is that it is meant to apply for situations where a submissive wishes to leave the relationship. For her to retract her submission based on her mood at the time, or to use it as a way to control the relationship and when she chooses to submit would be considered a different matter completely. She has the right to walk away ... hence, the ultimate control.

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 13

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 6:11:23 AM

temptation

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Joined: 2/20/2004
From: heaven
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It depends on what you're talking about.

In the end I suppose the partner who agreed to the relationship has the ultimate control, as the true decision to begin the relationship was solely on their shoulders. But at the same time, within the scene or the circumstances of the relationship, the "dominant" has authority where allowed. (Allowed being within the confinements of their agreement, or within the boundaries of SSC or the law).

Many dominants i've spoken with about this, dont like to hear that anyone else within the relationship has power.. but its ignorant to deny it. Every sane, rational person within a BDSM relationship is goverend by the rules of any other relationship. For any reason, a submissive could usurp ALL power from the dominant by simply leaving them. Or the dominant could maintain his control over the relationship by leaving the submissive. With that in mind, in a stable healthy relationship the way I look at it is this.

In the typical(stereotypical perhaps) D&S Relationship, power and responsibility belongs on both sides. The submissive has power while outlining the rules and boundaries of their relationship (ie: hard limits, soft limits etc). The dominant also has power during this, but often less so than the submissive. (dominant hard limits are often mutual or unspoken as it is his/her part of the relationship to control where it leads. But i'll get into that in a bit).

So overall, I would say that the submissive is most often incharge of the outer part of the relationship becuase of their power to say "no". And dont deny this, at ANY point a human being LEGALLY has the power to walk away, and that power is absolute and above everything else. Even if you choose not to use it, it does not mean that the option is not there.

But within the relationship, during the scene (or in 24/7) daily life of the relationship, the power is in the dominants hands. Not in absolute, as they still have to play within the confines of the rules set by the submissive initially. But the power to control the pace and multifaceted aspects of the relationship. In a stable, healthy relationship, the submissive cannot force the dominant to do something he/she doesnt wish to do. (topping from the bottom?) I suppose you can suggest, hint and even ask/beg.. but in the end, the decision to follow through is in the hands of the dominant. Like the submissive being able to walk away, the dominant can always walk away or refuse.

So when you say "in charge" I say it depends on what part of the relationship you're talking about.

As far as I know, real relationships involve two people.

(omg this is the longest thing i've ever written, but I was thinking about it for a really long time.)

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 14

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 6:17:13 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelinbondage

A friend of mine made a comment during one of our rambling discussions; he said that in a D/s relationship, the sub ultimately has the control. It makes perfect sense to me, but it is the first time I have heard those words come from a master's lips. What is everyone's opinion on this?

Isn't this a power exchange? In all seriousness, and it was explained well by FuriousAngel and others, one makes the decision to submit. Once they have made that decision, they set a few boundaries and then they give up control.

To be quite honest, I have as much power in walking away from an abusive submissive (oh it can happen!) as they have from walking away from me. We both have power, we both have rights, we both have control. But make no mistake about it, I'm in charge.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 15

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 6:18:17 AM

iwillserveu

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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I won't speak of the Male/ female dynamic. In the Female/male dynamic he can drive the car, but she gives the directions. (No, Mistress, should I stop at this red light crap.

)

I don't doubt there are times he takes control. Often without even realizing it. (Because that is the MANLY thing to due [cue Monty Python's Lumberjack song]) It takes a good Mistress to correct that. If she sometimes misses it, hey everybodies human. Who is in charge though is never in doubt. (or should never be in doubt.)

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 16

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 6:34:35 AM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

I won't speak of the Male/ female dynamic. In the Female/male dynamic he can drive the car, but she gives the directions. (No, Mistress, should I stop at this red light crap. )

I don't doubt there are times he takes control. Often without even realizing it. (Because that is the MANLY thing to due [cue Monty Python's Lumberjack song]) It takes a good Mistress to correct that. If she sometimes misses it, hey everybodies human. Who is in charge though is never in doubt. (or should never be in doubt.)

Thank you for generalizing the entire human existance via WIIWD.

A submissive of either gender has the power to walk away. I think the OP should have used the word "Power" rather than "Control" as they are differant. How the bottom wields that power is another story.

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to iwillserveu)

Post #: 17

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 6:41:03 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:

I think the OP should have used the word "Power" rather than "Control" as they are differant.

Yikes Lily - why can I not say stuff like that without waffling? Wish I had thought of that word difference, can I patent it?

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 18

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 7:40:03 AM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I think that in an SM scene, the person on the bottom end often has the security and control of their safeword. In some cases it is for comfort, in others it is for safety only (and for some its non existant) but that "control" or "power" is only as good as the integrity of the dominant weilding the whip. So technically, the sub doesn't really posess the control in a scene, she just possesses a word that may end or pause a scene. Heck, if she's bound up helpless and he's got a knife, I'd say he's the one in control.

I love the way you stated this allyC. IMNSHO, the biggest degree of control, power or authority any of us have is the part where we choose who we have a relationship with. As a submissive/slave it is completely up to you to decide who you will allow to have control over you. Beyond that, it is a power exchange. I have talked to so many submissives and for the most part, they seem to want the same thing... to be able to give up control to someone they completely trust.

quote:

For her to retract her submission based on her mood at the time, or to use it as a way to control the relationship and when she chooses to submit would be considered a different matter completely.

Again, just MNSHO, I would view that as manipulation.

quote:

Isn't this a power exchange? In all seriousness, and it was explained well by FuriousAngel and others, one makes the decision to submit. Once they have made that decision, they set a few boundaries and then they give up control.

To be quite honest, I have as much power in walking away from an abusive submissive (oh it can happen!) as they have from walking away from me. We both have power, we both have rights, we both have control. But make no mistake about it, I'm in charge.

I agree LadyAngelika, couldn't have said it better.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to allyC)

Post #: 19

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 10:14:08 AM

angelinbondage

Posts: 30
Joined: 1/27/2005
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*waves at Lily* Yeah, he is a pretty smart guy, and can even get downright philosophicla when he is not being a total goof, hahaha.

Some interesting comments have been made in response to my OP; I am actually enjoying this discussion.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 20

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