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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:16:31 PM   
ModeratorEleven


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Status: offline 		Folks, please trim your replies.  There's no need to have 8 nested levels of quotes for a 1 line reply.

XI

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:24:05 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Frankly, those people concealed weapons are those least likely to use them except in extreme situations.
Wrong a lot of the gun owners who were legal used them because of an argument.


You're missing one very crucial part of the sentence you quoted, hon.  He said "concealed" weapons.  He is speaking of people who have legal conceal-carry permits authorized by a state.  As another who does, I can assure you that the differences in what is required to own a gun compared to what is required to have a concealed carry permit is extremely different.  I think you would be very hard-pressed to find statistics pertaining to concealed carriers utilizing firearms inappropriately.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Laws are followed by law-abiding people.  They aren't by those that break them. 
It is time to actually trust people.  After all, isn't what we do here?  As a masochistic bottom, I trust my sadistic top.    As a sub, you expect to trust your Dom/me.
Wrong the statistics show half of legal owners cannot be trusted.


Whoa, whoa, whoa ... back up.  They do NOT show that half of legal gun owners cannot be trusted.  Even if your statistic is to be trusted (which, for the record, I'm not saying I trust it), it says that half of the gun crimes committed in the United States were committed by people who legally owned their firearms.  It does NOT say that half of all gun owners cannot be trusted.  There are hundreds of millions of guns in this country, yet only at worst several thousand incidents a year.  You're talking about fractions of one percent of the population ... in no way close to even a significant portion.

-Sicarius

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:24:36 PM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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Status: offline 		I don't believe teachers per sa  should be armed however the principal ie and security guards for sure,,I have grandchildren in schools and at the last PTA meeting this was addressed to my satifaction..the safety issue seems to be taken care of but you know any nutt that really wants to do some thing will find a way..BH

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:27:00 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Thats interesting Sicarius

Would it not seem a profitable way forward then, to raise the minimum standard for ownership to the same level required for a carry permit?

Also, on the carry permit - is the approval given only once and not reexamined on an ongoing basis, or is it necessary to get reapproved at a certain time after initial issue?

E

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:28:20 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		since Texas' concealed handgun law went into effect in 1996, more than 3,370 license holders have been arrested—an average of more than two arrests a day. Crimes for which license holders were arrested include: 23 cases of murder/attempted murder; 11 cases of kidnapping/false imprisonment; 60 cases of rape/sexual assault; 527 cases of assault; and 873 weapon-related offenses.
I see concealed weapons stated there.
 
The second point ill let go although judging by the facination with weapons which is weird and creepy of some in here ill stick to my opinion that a licenced gun owner does not automatically get my trust in the presnt system.
 
 

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:29:57 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Would it not seem a profitable way forward then, to raise the minimum standard for ownership to the same level required for a carry permit?


It could be.  As I said earlier in response to another poster, I'm very "lukewarm" about that discussion, though.  I see valid points on both sides of the equation, and I'm far less content to debate the merits inherent to either side of the "higher standards" argument.  It might work ... it might not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Also, on the carry permit - is the approval given only once and not reexamined on an ongoing basis, or is it necessary to get reapproved at a certain time after initial issue?


You have to be checked every couple of years in most states.  As far as I am aware, the single longest amount of time you can go without renewing your concealed carry permit is 4 years.

-Sicarius

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:29:58 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		Also, on the carry permit - is the approval given only once and not reexamined on an ongoing basis, or is it necessary to get reapproved at a certain time after initial issue?

Furthermore, as noted earlier, under current federal law those holding a valid state-issued permit or license to carry a concealed weapon are not required to undergo a background check when they purchase a firearm. In theory, the check conducted when the license was issued would suffice. This dramatic loophole has already been identified as a boon to criminal gun traffickers.23

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:32:24 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
since Texas' concealed handgun law went into effect in 1996, more than 3,370 license holders have been arrested—an average of more than two arrests a day. Crimes for which license holders were arrested include: 23 cases of murder/attempted murder; 11 cases of kidnapping/false imprisonment; 60 cases of rape/sexual assault; 527 cases of assault; and 873 weapon-related offenses.


Hold on.  There is a very big difference between a "concealed" weapon and someone who is legally carrying a concealed weapon.  The vast majority of "concealed offenders" are offenders because of the fact that they are carrying without a concealed carry permit.  I know that you're not intimately familiar with what we're talking about here, but I assure you there is a substantial difference.  You're quoting instances of illegal concealment.

-Sicarius

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:34:27 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		3370 LICENCED weapon carriers were arrested. Nowhere does it say they were carrying concealed illegally.
 
Care to give some facts and figures to back up your argument?

< Message edited by missturbation -- 4/30/2007 5:35:39 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:35:12 PM   
Sicarius


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From: New Orleans
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Also, on the carry permit - is the approval given only once and not reexamined on an ongoing basis, or is it necessary to get reapproved at a certain time after initial issue?

Furthermore, as noted earlier, under current federal law those holding a valid state-issued permit or license to carry a concealed weapon are not required to undergo a background check when they purchase a firearm. In theory, the check conducted when the license was issued would suffice. This dramatic loophole has already been identified as a boon to criminal gun traffickers.23


If you can cite that, I would appreciate it.  I'm pretty familiar with concealed carry laws in this country, and I've never heard of such a thing.  In my state, the training that is required, background checks, renewals etc. are extremely rigorous.  It seems to me that the ambiguity is arising from the fact that it is lumping concealed carry holders in with all people who own guns.  Basically what I am telling you is that the difference between them is about equivalent to being "permitted" to ride a bicycle compared with being "permitted" to drive a battle tank through a busy intersection.  There are indeed very serious requirements placed on concealed carry holders.

-Sicarius

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:36:41 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		I cited it on page 8.
A few interesting figures on there.

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:38:05 PM   
Sicarius


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From: New Orleans
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

3370 LICENCED weapon carriers were arrested. Nowhere does it say they were carrying concealed illegally.


No ... listen.  The operative word in your quote is "licensed."  You can have a license to own a firearm.  You can have licenses permitting to your ownership of a firearm, but these licenses do not permit you to carry the gun around.  Just because someone is licensed to own a weapon does not in any way mean that they had Concealed Carry Permits.

-Sicarius

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:39:52 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		Ok so you are clairvoyant and know these were not licenced to carry a concealed weapon?

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Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:43:19 PM   
Sicarius


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From: New Orleans
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Ok so you are clairvoyant and know these were not licenced to carry a concealed weapon?


Are you clairvoyant to such an extent that you know that they were?  I'm not saying none of them were ... but if you compare the number of gun owners in this country to the number of CCW permit holders, the numbers are incredibly small.  Acquiring and maintaining a concealed carry permit is serious business ... you go through a lot of training, have a ton of restrictions that you must be intimately familiar with, and must pay a considerable amount of money on a regular basis to maintain your permit.  Being that your quote does not specifically state how many of them were CCW permit holders, I can't comment.  I will tell you that out of all gun owners, though, CCW permit holders are relatively rare.

-Sicarius

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:43:30 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sicarius

I commented that the greatest "real" threat facing the western world was on account of terrorism. 



Could actually say the same thing about the biggest threat facing native Americans.  Isrealis.  Iraqis.  Afghanis.  Buddhist.  Muslims.  Christians.  Vietnamese.  Black people.  Inuit.  Scottish people.  northern / central Chinese.  Jews. Women.  Children.  I could go on.

The terrorists change, but the "real" threat remains the same.  You have a group that can be terrorised.  You have a group that can be terrorists.  Guess what happens.  Go look up the Stanford Prison Experiment if you are interested.  As Lord Acton pointed out, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

The "real" threat is human nature and our unwillingness as a species to strive to become more moral and accepting and tolerant and understanding of other people than our base nature provides us with.  One cannot trash sharks or wolf packs or bacteria for killing others; that is in their nature.  Humans have developed an ability to see the outcomes of actions in the future, to choose to follow our innate natures or not, so theoretically we can decide to commit terrorist acts or not.

We have a choice, and many of us do them anyway.

Sinergy

p.s. On a related note, I was reading in Scientific American the other day that they have been able to prove that mice have a form of primitive foresight, a trait which humans thought was limited to their species.


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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:45:26 PM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sicarius

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Ok so you are clairvoyant and know these were not licenced to carry a concealed weapon?


Are you clairvoyant to such an extent that you know that they were?  I'm not saying none of them were ... but if you compare the number of gun owners in this country to the number of CCW permit holders, the numbers are incredibly small.  Acquiring and maintaining a concealed carry permit is serious business ... you go through a lot of training, have a ton of restrictions that you must be intimately familiar with, and must pay a considerable amount of money on a regular basis to maintain your permit.  Being that your quote does not specifically state how many of them were CCW permit holders, I can't comment.  I will tell you that out of all gun owners, though, CCW permit holders are relatively rare.

-Sicarius


Could you quote me some statistics to back that please?
Courses and money paid and background checks do not prove anything. These measures are not infallible by a long shot.

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:47:53 PM   
Suzykeu


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Status: offline 		I'm terrified of anyone having a gun in my school, regardless of why. Having something creates a temptation to use it from my experiance.

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:50:19 PM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I think its a stretch to expect an infallible system MissT.

What we're after is the best possible system of control, which the carry permit requirements seem so far to fit, for me anyway.

E

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:51:52 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I think its a stretch to expect an infallible system MissT.

What we're after is the best possible system of control, which the carry permit requirements seem so far to fit, for me anyway.

E


Well not for me, background checks are far too unreliable.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:53:11 PM   
Sicarius


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From: New Orleans
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Could you quote me some statistics to back that please?
Courses and money paid and background checks do not prove anything. These measures are not infallible by a long shot.


Well, crap.  I guess that means that military personnel are no longer fit for service, since all they have are background checks and training.  I suppose we can scrap all police officers as well ... after all, training does not ensure beyond a shadow of doubt that they won't abuse their power, right?  I suppose we can do away with teachers ... all those courses don't *assure* us that they won't teach our children the wrong things.  We might as well ban all cars because ... hell, even if you pass Driver's Education (which is so laughably easy compared to obtaining a CCW permit ...) ... you still stand a good chance of killing people.

If your argument is that it must be a 100% sure thing?  Well, I'm sorry ... you live on Earth.  The only sure thing here is that one day you will die ... hopefully in peace.

If you're genuinely interested in learning more about concealed carry permits, I'll grab a bunch of links for you.  The only one I'm intimately familiar with off-hand is the site pertaining to licensing within my own state:

http://www.lsp.org/handguns.html#laws

If you want some idea of what we have to commit to memory, just as a small portion of obtaining this level of license, this is the manual that we have to treat as though it were our bible:

http://www.lsp.org/pdf/chRuleBook04.pdf

This is a far cry from:  "No offenses?  Check.  U.S. Citizen?  Check.  Here's your gun, sir."

-Sicarius

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