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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:54:52 PM   
missturbation


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Joined: 2/12/2006
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Status: offline 		I'll certainly read the sites you have just given me but im asking you for stats to prove your stance on concealed carry permit holders.

The police and military go through years of training so dont put words in mouth.

< Message edited by missturbation -- 4/30/2007 5:55:57 PM >

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 5:59:12 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		As I understand it though MissT, we are dealing with two levels of control here;

Simple and I agree likely inadequate background checks to obtain a permit for a weapon. This entitles one to own, but not to carry in a public place.

Far more complex and far reaching checks and assessments to obtain and retain a carry permit for a weapon. This one entitles one to own and to carry in a public place.

The latter level of checks and assessments on an ongoing basis as described by Sicarius, to my mind provide the best possible control and ought perhaps to be considered as the new minimum for simple ownership.

At the same time, it is vital to remember that this isnt like the UK; the US has the right to bear arms in its "club rules". This rule can be amended perhaps, but cannot be dissolved unless the whole is dissolved and the US starts again from scratch.

I'm off to bed now, but my Springeresque closing thoughts are, that if teaching staff are to be issued weapons and expected to be primary inhibitors of gun violence on campus, then it should be purely according to their individual personal choice and it should be only where the individual can meet the requirements for a carry permit on an ongoing basis - checked more regularly than two years however, which period I see as the only flaw so far in the carry permit control regimen.

E




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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:00:02 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I'll certainly read the sites you have just given me but im asking you for stats to prove your stance on concealed carry permit holders.

The police and military go through years of training so dont put words in mouth.


Heh.  You might be surprised how similar the qualification requirements are between law enforcement personnel and citizens who have CCW permits.  There are a lot of people who argue that we are actually better trained, on average, than many police officers when it comes to the proper use of weapons.

As for the stats pertaining to legal concealed carry ... what, specifically?  The fact that there are so few?

-Sicarius

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:02:42 PM   
missturbation


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Joined: 2/12/2006
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Status: offline 		The latter level of checks and assessments on an ongoing basis as described by Sicarius, to my mind provide the best possible control and ought perhaps to be considered as the new minimum for simple ownership.
Thats strange as ian huntley went through a series of vigorous background checks to work in a school and what happened there? I also happen to know that the checks are vigorous because ive been through them myself twice.
At the same time, it is vital to remember that this isnt like the UK; the US has the right to bear arms in its "club rules".
I have said all along i respect their right to legally carry but it doesnt make it or the system right.


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Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:05:35 PM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sicarius

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I'll certainly read the sites you have just given me but im asking you for stats to prove your stance on concealed carry permit holders.

The police and military go through years of training so dont put words in mouth.


Heh.  You might be surprised how similar the qualification requirements are between law enforcement personnel and citizens who have CCW permits.  There are a lot of people who argue that we are actually better trained, on average, than many police officers when it comes to the proper use of weapons.

As for the stats pertaining to legal concealed carry ... what, specifically?  The fact that there are so few?

-Sicarius


Id quite like stats on how many legally concealed carriers commit offences. You say it is very low so you must have read this somewhere or are you just making it up as you go along?
 

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:12:32 PM   
Sicarius


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From: New Orleans
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Id quite like stats on how many legally concealed carriers commit offences. You say it is very low so you must have read this somewhere or are you just making it up as you go along?
 


I don't believe I said that, unless I misspoke somewhere.  I said that in comparison to regular gun owners that the amount of CCW permit holders is exceptionally small.  I can't honestly say that I've ever seen statistics pertaining specifically to the number of CCW permit holders that are convicted of gun-related crimes ... probably on account of the fact that they are such a small percentage of the whole.  It would be like making a statistic to see exactly how many traffic violations were committed by trucks delivering milk within a specific timeframe of the morning.

-Sicarius

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:16:15 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Excepting Vermont and Alaska, of course.



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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:16:42 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		Ok so you can't back up your opinion?
If you have never seen statistics how can you quote this to be the truth?
The system is not infallible and the statistic i have shown prove their are irresponsible gun owners out there. Lets face it even if the licenced gun holders are the majority to commit crime the system isnt working. So how on earth are you supposed to trust that the more vigorous checks work either?

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:19:07 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		What about places where guns aren't licensed?



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:20:38 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
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Status: offline 		What about them?

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:20:41 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Excepting Vermont and Alaska, of course.


True.  Though it is sort of ambiguous being that they're not really "permitting" concealed carry so much as stating that it is an inherent right of all citizens.  For the sake of clarification, I'm speaking specifically of discretionary and nondiscretionary licensing outside of states that do not allow unregulated carry.

In reply to missturbation's question on the same subject ... Alaska and Vermont are unregulated.  Any citizen can carry a concealed weapon within those states.  They may not do so outside of their state.

-Sicarius

< Message edited by Sicarius -- 4/30/2007 6:21:42 PM >

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:23:14 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

What about them?


Well in those instances, you don't have artificial bullshit divisions as "Lawful" and "Unlawful".

You just have PEOPLE. Who may, or may not have a firearm about their person.

I do not believe it is a co-incidence that year after year they are ranked among the lowest per-capita crime rates in the nation.

I think the real statistic is: How many crimes are committed using a firearm vs. what's the population of the State.


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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:25:53 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Ok so you can't back up your opinion?
If you have never seen statistics how can you quote this to be the truth?
The system is not infallible and the statistic i have shown prove their are irresponsible gun owners out there. Lets face it even if the licenced gun holders are the majority to commit crime the system isnt working. So how on earth are you supposed to trust that the more vigorous checks work either?


I did not say that.  All I said was that the number of gun owners was disproportionately large compared to the number of CCW permit holders.  A lot of violent crimes are perpetrated by military and law enforcement personnel who abuse their power, and I don't see you condeming them for it.  No system "works" to the extent that you want it to work.  You want to create a flawless 100% sure thing -- a Utopian Society.  I suspect that what you honestly want is something along the lines of a "benevolent" police state in which citizens have virtually no rights at all so that they never "threaten" anyone.

-Sicarius

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:26:40 PM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

What about them?


Well in those instances, you don't have artificial bullshit divisions as "Lawful" and "Unlawful".

You just have PEOPLE. Who may, or may not have a firearm about their person.

I do not believe it is a co-incidence that year after year they are ranked among the lowest per-capita crime rates in the nation.

I think the real statistic is: How many crimes are committed using a firearm vs. what's the population of the State.



I personally wouldn't set foot in them. As i have said all along though it being your legal right to carry a gun then carry one. I dont like it and i dont think its right but if its legal you all go ahead.
Its neither lawful nor unlawful? That doesnt make sense.

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What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:29:17 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		I did not say that.  All I said was that the number of gun owners was disproportionately large compared to the number of CCW permit holders.  A lot of violent crimes are perpetrated by military and law enforcement personnel who abuse their power, and I don't see you condeming them for it.
Actually i did several pages ago, maybe you should go back and read to stop this having to repeat things i have said or cited.
No system "works" to the extent that you want it to work.  You want to create a flawless 100% sure thing -- a Utopian Society.  I suspect that what you honestly want is something along the lines of a "benevolent" police state in which citizens have virtually no rights at all so that they never "threaten" anyone.
Again i have said no system works 100% but the system in place does not work satisfactorily at all to me. You can suspect about me all you like but your assumptions so far have been way off the mark.


_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 6:35:04 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
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Status: offline 		What are you talking about?  The firearms were not illegally acquired.  He shouldn't have been permitted to purchase firearms because of his mental-health record, but his information wasn't in the federal database.  So nobody knew better.  But that doesn't mean he acquired them illegally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nastgargoyle

Since the firearms used at VT by Cho for the shootings were illegally aquired, and it was a failure in the legal system that allowed that to happen, I still have to stay with My vote that school official and employees that want to be certified to carry a handgun for the protection of students on a campus be allowed to.

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 8:20:26 PM   
Sicarius


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From: New Orleans
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Actually i did several pages ago, maybe you should go back and read to stop this having to repeat things i have said or cited.

 
I apologize that I am not intimately familiar with everything you've said over eleven pages of posts, then.


quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Again i have said no system works 100% but the system in place does not work satisfactorily at all to me. You can suspect about me all you like but your assumptions so far have been way off the mark.


Okay, then let's play the game that stems from that declaration ... what would constitute a "satisfactory" system to you?  What are the requirements / parameters that we need to meet in order to make your ideal world?  What are the acceptable losses?  What are the acceptable sacrifices in the name of imperfection?

-Sicarius

< Message edited by Sicarius -- 4/30/2007 8:54:27 PM >

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/30/2007 10:33:22 PM   
Casie


Posts: 450
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		So, are you saying that people who sometimes act unprofessional in their debates online aren't responsible? Perhaps we should keep them for owning knives or any other means of harming someone. Because they must iresponsible. Geesh.

Secondly time and time again you miss the point. I understand guns cause death and some are accidents ext. And you want to try to eliminate them. But what you fail to realize is that results in more deaths!! I have given you examples and websites, that prove this. When agun bans take hold, the violent crime rates rise. Most of the time dramatically. So, is it ok for MORE people to die or be scaved, as a result of gun control? Are these peoples lifes not as imortant because they are not taken with a gun? Is it ok for the ones who do survive a violent crime to suffer mentally, emotionally, and sometimes physically for the rest of their lives just because it wasn't a gun? Are you willing to account for the countless lifes that would be taken as a result of total gun ban? It has been shown time and time again that violent crime rises as a result. Even in your country. The trade of for a complete gun ban is MORE loss of life, and more lifes ruined!

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 5/1/2007 3:04:50 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		What I really dont understand is the total loathing of so many Brits for the very idea of guns.

Excluding ex armed force, the vast majority of adults in Britain today, have never so much as held a gun, let alone fired a gun. Of those that have, for most the gun was a side by side shotgun - which isnt a real gun in my opinion! I consider myself lucky, that before the ban I got to fire handguns and a rifle.

Yes, guns can be scary in the wrong hands. Yes they make a lot of noise and they can kill. The key is to prevent as far as possible, guns being in the wrong hands. And the wrong hands include not only ex cons and the psychologically disturbed but also those under the influence of alcohol/drugs, those who are blase and careless with them and those who are unwilling to take the responsibility for them. I'd venture to say that those who have an irrational fear of them absent some fool having one pointed at them too.

I would like a gun again. By the reasoning of many Brits, I am therefore clearly mentally unbalanced and a danger to myself and others, because I'd like one. I find this ridiculous, unfounded and a response driven by ignorant fear - but then that seems to be the way of things in our legislation.

Interestingly, the next wondrous "Nanny knows best" legislation we are due to have in the UK, surrounds "violent pornography". Driven by the same ridiculous, unfounded and ignorant response factors, every Brit on this website will soon be subject to prosecution for the possession of bdsm images which whilst not extreme in any way, do fit the criteria for an offence. At a stroke, we will all be clearly mentally unbalanced and a danger to ourselves and others.

No connection though, will ever be made.

E

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 5/1/2007 6:12:47 AM   
Sicarius


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/26/2007
From: New Orleans
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Interestingly, the next wondrous "Nanny knows best" legislation we are due to have in the UK, surrounds "violent pornography". Driven by the same ridiculous, unfounded and ignorant response factors, every Brit on this website will soon be subject to prosecution for the possession of bdsm images which whilst not extreme in any way, do fit the criteria for an offence. At a stroke, we will all be clearly mentally unbalanced and a danger to ourselves and others.

No connection though, will ever be made.

E


Personally, I consider that to be a very valid observation on your part.  I don't know why there are so many Brits that are fearful of weapons, but I believe that like most who are terrified of firearms over here, there is either some "bad past experience" to blame, or such a total ignorance on the subject that facts are replaced exclusively by fears, worry, and doubt.  I really don't find myself as angry with MissT, for example, as I would an American who held the same views.  Maybe that's not fair in the scheme of things, but I suppose the way I have to view it is that I feel she did not have the same level of opportunity to learn about the subject safely and sanely ... the same way each of us try to learn about "other" ... "controversial" aspects of our ... "lifestyle," perhaps?

That stated, I have met quite a few Brits who enjoy firearms quite a bit.  I'll never forget the British girl that myself and my partner associated with online for a while who was so playfully enamored with the fact that we own guns over here ... it was so cute and funny this "wonder" she seemed to hold for the subject.  :)  Anyway, I'm glad to see that you maintain a balanced perspective, Lady E.  You seem like a very pragmatic, open-minded and well-balanced individual.

-Sicarius

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