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Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/29/2007 11:44:15 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		Afghan Infant Mortality Declines

KABUL, Afghanistan, April 26 — Infant mortality has dropped by 18 percent in Afghanistan, one of the first real signs of recovery for the country five years after the fall of the Taliban regime, health officials said Thursday.

...

The number of children who die before their first birthday has dropped to 135 per 1,000 in 2006 from 165 per 1,000 live births in 2001, according to a countrywide survey by Johns Hopkins University, he said.

That represents a drop of 18 percent, and means that 40,000 to 50,000 fewer infants are dying now than in the Taliban era, Dr. Fatimi said. “Thanks be to God they are celebrating, laughing and smiling,” he said. “These infants are the future builders of our country.”

FirmKY

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 12:42:32 AM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		Is this small victory a stand in for "Mission Accomplished - Afghanistan"?


If the USA had stayed out of Iraq and devoted a fraction of their present effort to Afghanistan, along with NATO like we agreed, before GWB pulled the rug out... then this would be just one of many successes. Afghanistan was an opportunity squandered and a beachhead neglected. It could still be better and a little fortitude and firepower from Europe would sure help, hint hint. Humanitarian accomplishments won't hold in the absence of security and there are not enough troops to protect the successes and fight the Taliban. I hate to contemplate the bloodbath of reprisals that will result if NATO withdraws before the Afghans can realistically take charge.


Z.


PS: Yes.


< Message edited by Zensee -- 4/30/2007 12:46:26 AM >

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 1:01:43 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Kabul is not Afghanistan. The British in Helmond province are still engaged in heavy fighting with no relief in sight and an expected offensive by the Taliban this summer.

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 1:05:44 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		It's been five years now, if they're not "ready" by now they never will be.
I think we need to start using gas in the areas of Pakistan /Afganistan where we know the Taliban and Al Qeada are. Or, poison their water supplies.

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 5:02:17 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Kabul is not Afghanistan. The British in Helmond province are still engaged in heavy fighting with no relief in sight and an expected offensive by the Taliban this summer.


Any thing to be negative, huh, meat?

"Kabul" is the location the story is being reported from, not the only location of reduced infant morality.  That's all of Afghanistan.

That how you interpret everything you read?  Incorrectly?

As far as the "dreaded Taliban offensive" I don't guess you've read much lately, have you?

FirmKY


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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 7:23:22 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		The truth is often inconvenient but it is the British command that said without more forces in Helmond, the war is going nowhere and there is a potential the longer the fight goes on to lose the confidence of the local people who are suffering.

When British troops were sent into Helmond the idea was they were supposed to start reconstruction not fighting. No reconstruction has yet taken place and for most of last year British troops were bogged down because they were undermanned.

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 8:53:10 AM   
ultraplay


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Status: offline 		The British tactics in Afghanistan are dictated almost exclusively by money and resources-or lack therof. The use of Afghani labour to perform reconstruction has only ever been done in fits and starts;as soon as HM Treasury turns off the tap the locals troop off to work for The Afghani Demolition Corp (AKA the Taliban) blow up all  the things they just built ( apart from any roads or bridges that are useful to the loal pharmaceutical "businessmen")  and wait for the Treasury to turn the money back on.It's a grotesque waste of money and lives Western and Afghani.We have  tried the "Strongpoint" method and are now trying the "Flying Column" method -both used and failed in every CI war ever fought.
Here's some things we might try
!) Ask the locals what SMALL scale things they want doing-NOT what Megabucks Corporation thinks they should have-once they have built it give them a little money to look after it.
2)Tell the locals we will buy opium at a fixed price and quota per farmer.Anybody without a quota gets an  early morning call from an Apache Longbow-there's a worldwide shortage of medical opiates
3)Target the dealers bringing in money to pay for the crop now being harvested-make the SAS earn their pay!!!!!!!!!plus the Pakistani Generals and anybody else who's financing the business
4)Take out the local Mr Bigs-we know where they are and that they continually give money to the Talib-those B52's couild use some flying time
5) Get a moderate Muslim country to start an aid project about 20 miles south of the main refugee camps in Pakistan and get the male population of the camps working there-these camps are a total disgrace-show the refugees we care about them
None of these ideas are original or even very difficult-It'll be interesting to see what G.Brown Esq does when he gets behind the controls..........................

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 8:59:02 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Kabul is not Afghanistan. The British in Helmond province are still engaged in heavy fighting with no relief in sight and an expected offensive by the Taliban this summer.


Any thing to be negative, huh, meat?

"Kabul" is the location the story is being reported from, not the only location of reduced infant morality.  That's all of Afghanistan.

That how you interpret everything you read?  Incorrectly?

As far as the "dreaded Taliban offensive" I don't guess you've read much lately, have you?

FirmKY



Firmhand, I wouldn't want him on my team.

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 9:22:31 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		If its a failure, then its a collective failure surely? Unlike Iraq, Afghanistan is a NATO project I thought, which means blame all round I'd say....

On the opiate question which ultraplay raised, there was an article on BBC radio 4 last week about the idea to licence opium production for medicine. The US apparently did this in Turkey a few decades ago and its a success there, though requires a lot of resources to police. The main argument against that was raised, was that whilst raw opium for medical purposes goes for a decent price, the price for illicit purposes is four times higher. My own view is that the Pakistanis are likely permitted to have the trade continue, since its them who traffick the stuff to the west, in return for their "cooperation" (see how bad it would get without it, sahib).

E

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 9:43:47 AM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		NATO just launched another offensive against the Taliban -
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070430/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan;_ylt=AnCEYvUsPzlK55sypFHEwLlvaA8F

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 9:51:24 AM   
ultraplay


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Status: offline 		Hi lady Ellen,
You are 100% right- opiate licencing only works against a background of improving and sustainable living standards.However we could tell the big Pharmas to buy it at twice the going rate(the effect on finished drug prices would be negligible).We need then to couple it with a few moderate Mullahs saying its production and trafficking offends against the Quran(Which it almost certainly does).Then an all out offensive on the middle men and dealers who still want to carry on regardless of their standing or otherwise in provincial or central Government

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 10:00:43 AM   
ultraplay


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Status: offline 		Hi Vendaval,
This story is getting (a bit)more coverage in the U.K.The problem is the lack of a "joined up " strategy.Most of the "Taliban "are kids from the refugee camps or unemployed locals being funded (indirectly) by drug money.The approach that Carver is talking about is generally called "Flying Column" it was used by the French unsuccessfully prior to Dien Bien Phu and in subsequent CI wars-it just doesn't work

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 10:34:45 AM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Hello ultraplay and welcome to the forums. 
 
Would you please explain more about the "flying column" approach.
 
Regards,
 
Vendaval

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 11:20:35 AM   
ultraplay


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Status: offline 		Hi Vendaval
Sorry its really boring but here goes................
The basic idea is that you throw a bunch of food ,ammo,toilet paper and anything else useful you can think of into   some vehicles and drive round the country looking for the bad guys........sounds great???...............except
1)Where are the bad guys?....well since you are accompanied by a cloud of helicopters,you are towing your artillery and you move as fast as the slowest vehicle plus you stop every couple of hours to make tea they are everywhere ..........except where you are
2)Who are the bad guys?...............well since you never stay in one place for longer than a couple of hours its hard to get good intelligence ......so sooner or later the local Talib will tell you" go to XYZ village they are all Talib there" shortly xyz village will become a  heap of smoking ruins and you'll have made a lot of new friends.Variant 2 on this theme is you get told this stuff last thing at night,you set off toXYZ but hey presto!!!! somebody has laid mines in the road (wonder who that was???).Variant 3 is that you go to XYZ but you air cover goes to ZXY,gets bored and flattens the place(more new friends)
3)What are the bad guys? ...............well sadly it's the same guys who were quite happily digging ditches for you or mending the road until the money ran out
4)Why are the bad guys bad guys.?................well how would you feel if periodically 40 armoured vehicles came to your neighbourhood shot (accidentally) your friends or family attracted artillery fire from everywhere( including their own side) killed your chickens ate everything in the village(all the patrols are accompanied by one or both of the Afghan "Police"forces who are goons) and boogied off the next day (hopefully to XYZ!!!!!!!!!!)

IT's been used allover the place-we Brits have used it in the Boer war and in inter war Ireland.The French General who dreamed it up(its one of those perplexing concepts that is newly invented in every war)was called DeLattre de Tassigny.If you are really interested read "The quicksand war" by Lucien Bodard or the brilliant "Bright shining lie".

On the upside its very photogenic,.it's pleasantly glamorous and you get to see the countryside plus periodically a visiting VIP gets choppered out to you and can pose on top of an APC looking through your binos or pointing at a map or eating your food or trying not to appear too anxious about getting back to Khabul before its dark


Play safe

Paul

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 1:29:16 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Any thing to be negative, huh, meat?



Anything to be cryptic and incendiary, huh, KY?

Your "contribution" to your own thread, if not the thread itself, seems more like trolling at this point, than an invitation for discussion.

So why did you post it and what's your take?

Z.


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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 1:57:44 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Any thing to be negative, huh, meat?


Anything to be cryptic and incendiary, huh, KY?

Your "contribution" to your own thread, if not the thread itself, seems more like trolling at this point, than an invitation for discussion.

So why did you post it and what's your take?


Likely, the same reason that Vendaval posts all of her negative stories. 

Isn't balance a good thing?

I find it pretty telling, that an article about the lowered child morality rate in Afghanistan could be considered "cryptic and incendiary"!  Why is that, do you think?

FirmKY


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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 2:05:35 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Firmhand, I wouldn't want him on my team.


No worry, popeye.  He's definitely not on our team.

FirmKY

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 2:16:46 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

NATO just launched another offensive against the Taliban -
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070430/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan;_ylt=AnCEYvUsPzlK55sypFHEwLlvaA8F


Like Iraq, the fighting was supposed to be over long ago. The fight in Afghanistan has been under resourced with the US and Britain needing troops in Iraq and other NATO partners (Canada excepted) reluctant to have their troops used in the troublesome south because they have been uneasy since the Iraq debacle. The British are under resourced (Thankyou Tony Blair) and generally the political will is lacking to put enough troops with enough resources and the promises of aid from the inteternational community (a contradiction in terms) have not been honoured.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/30/2007 2:17:44 PM >

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 2:23:52 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		The impression I get, is that whilst the US, UK and Canada have all stepped up to the plate in Afghanistan, other NATO countries have contributed little.

Does anyone have information on the veracity of such an impression, or a source or two which might disabuse me of such a notion?

E

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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 4/30/2007 2:31:23 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The impression I get, is that whilst the US, UK and Canada have all stepped up to the plate in Afghanistan, other NATO countries have contributed little.

Does anyone have information on the veracity of such an impression, or a source or two which might disabuse me of such a notion?

E


You are right. Afghanistan is outside NATO's remit and while NATO countries are happy for their facilities to be used, ie German bases etc most are unhappy to have their troops there because they don't think the war is a solution to the underlying problems. Most NATO members send a couple of stretcher bearers etc to show a little solidarity but the political will and belief in the project just isn't there. Iraq is the main reason why the initial enthusiasm for the backing of the Afghan war has waned so drastically.

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