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The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 6:55:32 AM   
Mercnbeth


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Practically every evil committed in the USA is a direct result of the actions of one group of people. They serve no purpose other than to increase their personal wealth corrupting the system with their actions. They are allowed to get away with it because of the illusion that they are serving us. Many believe it; looking in the future to "win the lottery". As a result every product and service is overpriced. Every action or "good deed" risks life altering consequences.

The problem is easy to resolve. A process of "loser pays" in lawsuits would end this nonsense. But the lawyers we elect to represent us would never let this happen. They scare the naive into believing that somehow their "rights" would be infringed. Why? A wrongful death would still prevail in a lawsuit.

This will go on as long as we let it. As a result you can sue a business for $67 Million over a lost pair of pants. Why not, the plaintiff is a lawyer, his costs are minimal. The defendant is a small business man. If he "wins" he still is out the cost of defense, it is rare to get costs in a lawsuit as the defendant. A business talking years to grow, is killed by the legal system.

quote:

The $67 Million Pants
Washington, D.C. Lawyer Sues Dry Cleaners for Lost Trousers

"People in America are now scared of each other," legal expert Philip Howard told ABC News' Law & Justice Unit. "That's why teachers won't put an arm around a crying child, and doctors order unnecessary tests, and ministers won't meet with parishioners. It's a distrust of justice and it's changing our culture."
The civil trial, set for June, has the scope of a John Grisham courtroom thriller and the societal importance of a traffic ticket.
Pearson plans to call 63 witnesses.  Source: http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3119381&page=1


< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 5/2/2007 6:56:08 AM >
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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 7:11:45 AM   
Aileen68


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That's really sad and I agree that it is a large part of the downfall of this country.
I'm 39 and have never had the desire to sue another person.  I've had unneccessary
surgery and I've lost a child late in a pregnancy and even then I had no thought to sue.
Shit happens and doctors are people who only try to do their best.  I never expect perfection.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 8:00:35 AM   
Real0ne


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Agreed!

double-speak, double-think, double-do!  thousands of examples have been put on the internet

next the concept of pressure from the top and pressure from the bottom at the same time.  lame example: "its unhealthy to use to use nutrsweet"  at the same time a zero cal sweetner by the name of stevia where one teaspoon = 1 cup of sugar is not allowed to be marketed in the us as a sweetner.  That is even tho it is 0 calorie, 0 carb, and actually healthy for us and used in peru for over 5000 years!

next destroy all faith in government, methods: sex scandals, black mail, and extortion.

next control the press by directing our attention away from one subject of value while focusing on fluff, and what ever does leak out sanitize it first

next interpret law incorrectly and write laws over the top of existing laws

next spend us to death.

How much is america worth?  If you wanted to own america what would you pay to get her?

How much was russia worth?  How was russia dismantled?  Reagan got the credit for spending russia into the ground.   What happened inside the russian gov and country that actually caused this very powerful nation to collapse?  what was the dynamics?  

What are the dynamics here in the us causing our nbation to be dismantled?

If a country where they would kill everyone who disagreed could not avoid this dismantling how do we feel we can avoid it?

No on needs to guess that i agree with you 500% in concept and i also agree loser pay all should be mandatory.  (then there would never be a loser i suppose that would be their next play)

hopeless?  maybe?  just make sure we keep our guns :)





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/2/2007 8:09:51 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 9:31:44 AM   
Sinergy


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Read Upton Sinclair's book "The Jungle."

I would agree to legislate "loser pays" lawsuits if a way could be found to enforce compliance with laws in effect in this country.

The problem with passing these laws is that a large corporation will put 100 lawyers on a case to tie it up in court until after the litigant dies or gives up. 

Until you can come up with a way to inflict criminal charges against corporations that inflict evil on people, like, for example, the use of mercury in vaccines, faulty breast implants, cutting off the wrong leg in surgery, etc., the current method is the only way people screwed over by large corporations can get redress for the wrongs committed against them.

Sinergy

p.s.  You honestly think this is the "core problem" in the USA?



_____________________________

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 9:38:53 AM   
Vendaval


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Another waste of the judicial system and a small family business
getting beat up by someone manipulating the law. 
 
All they owed him was replacing the lost items, nothing more, nothing less.
 
If he was not a judge, this would have already been thrown out of court.
 
 

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 9:45:18 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


Read Upton Sinclair's book "The Jungle."

I would agree to legislate "loser pays" lawsuits if a way could be found to enforce compliance with laws in effect in this country.

The problem with passing these laws is that a large corporation will put 100 lawyers on a case to tie it up in court until after the litigant dies or gives up. 

Until you can come up with a way to inflict criminal charges against corporations that inflict evil on people, like, for example, the use of mercury in vaccines, faulty breast implants, cutting off the wrong leg in surgery, etc., the current method is the only way people screwed over by large corporations can get redress for the wrongs committed against them.

Sinergy

p.s.  You honestly think this is the "core problem" in the USA?




in a word the core problem is that we are being spent/assainated into the ground on all fronts at the same time.

Same for legislation, once legislation is shot down there needs to be a public vote to bring it back, they keep hitting us with the same shit over and over and we keep suing and suing and eating up dollars.

Like i said How was a powerful country like russia brought down and how are we being brought down and speaking of books, quigleys tradgety and hope, the evolution of society, and the shadows of power by perloff

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 11:14:14 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

You honestly think this is the "core problem" in the USA?
Yes. The effects of the legal "industry" impact every aspect of our lives. The legal industry directly impacts all R&D, not just where its obvious such as in the drug industry, but every product. It has destroyed entire industries, such as the private plane manufacturing. The legal industry impacts those who can afford it least. "Basic Transportation" for a college student used to mean buying a $500 car from a friend and making enough to afford the gas and oil. Now it requires almost a full time job to afford the insurance. In some markets mandatory liability for a male driver under 25 begins at $2,500.00/six months; minimum coverage. A direct result of the litigation industry.

The health industry is the worst example. It costs $8.00/aspirin in a hospital not because of the cost of the aspirin, but because of the insurance required for the hospital, nurse, doctor, and aspirin manufacture. The insurance is needed because of the threat of litigation. 

Part of any tort reform would eliminate your issue and paranoia regarding corporations. A loser pays process would give no incentive by the corporations to defer settlement. The opposite would occur, because time = interest. Also you should be aware in the event of the litigant death, the lawsuit services with the benefit going to the estate.

Not all mistakes are criminal. When asbestos was developed it was seen as a cheap and effective insulation. Ten to twenty years after the fact it was determined to be cancer causing. To you this is a criminal act? When a crime occurs committed by a corporation, corporate officers are tried criminally; Enron for example. When the Manville company, manufacturer of asbestos was brought to court for their liability there officers were not charged criminally. With Enron, nobody died. Manville killed tens of thousands. Unintentionally, but the victims are still dead. The lawyers killed not only the company, (bankruptcy 1982) but the NJ city where it was based, and ended the manufacturing lives of all those working there. Was there justice in both cases, or should criminal charges been brought against Manville?

You have a mixed bag in your examples. Voluntary surgery comes with voluntary risk. Put a bag of silicon liquid in your chest after reading all the disclaimers and  warning didn't dissuade you. If you turned out to be the 0.0001% they talked about as "worst case", you should share in the responsibility for the result. If you feel you should be entitled to a $1 Million, because the disclaimer and/or doctor wasn't clear enough, we don't share that belief. I have a stronger belief in personal responsibility and don't want or need a nanny state or nanny legal industry to protect me.

If mercury in vaccines got there by design it is criminal; as long as the comprehensive R&D contained those results. If the same vaccine prevented millions to avoid accidents but 10 to die and that factor was public knowledge; personal decision applies as do personal consequence. It becomes a pragmatic personal decision. It the reason why no vaccine should be mandatory and you shouldn't need a "religious" reason.

Your argument points to the present situation being better able to pursue litigation against corporations. That would mean you think we are currently in an Utopian world for the individual to sue corporations. You believe that now a person stands on equal ground after they are "screwed over by large corporations"? I'm sure all those waiting for their $3,000.00 'windfall' for their silicon breast implant, would disagree. But the law firm who received 35% of the $57 Million settlement would hope more people feel as you do - maintain the status quo.
quote:


The Settlement Facility-Dow Corning Trust (SF-DCT) has extended to all eligible Class 7 claimants who have had received Mentor, Cox-Uphoff or Bioplasty breast implants, a chance to settle their claim early.  A check in the amount of $3,000.00 was mailed to all eligible Class 7 claimants with the settlement offer from the SF-DCT. Source: http://www.frailichlaw.com/breakingdowcorningnews_feb_2007.html 


< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 5/2/2007 11:16:14 AM >

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 11:34:40 AM   
pahunkboy


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well- pragmatically speaking- you need an atty to even fart anymore.  the publicized outragous suits that are publicised are not the majority. in fact MOST judges will not over-rule another judge.

in modern society it sucks that to function one needs an attorny for so many of lifes events. also- the paper-work and red tape trickles down to where it is more difficult to function cause "we might be sued".

a buddy of mine thinks the whole gay marriage thing is stirred up by attorneys who want to make money.

the US has more lawyers per capita then any other western country,  Why?

i grew up in cook county il- chicago. notoriously noted as the most litigious place on earth.

when i moved to PA- i brought that mentality with me. boy was i in for a surprise. i had to learn the hard way how things are done locally.

as for tort reform- i am against it. in recent yrs industry has wrote it own laws. and congress who takes campaigne contributions goes along with it.

the system will often play both sides against the middle.

think of it this way- insurance- vs attorneys.  now consider the assets of insurance companies- which is comprised of attiornys. hugs skyscrapers built off of human tradgedy aaand sufferring.

insurance is a joke. they almost never pay.   but by law- you must have it.

here is where escape claauses come in at.

one event- i worked at the red cross. we had the materials donated nad a volunteer group willing to build a wheel chair ramp. well- what we did not have was insurance. under strict instructions from national haedquarters we were not to proceed with the project.   so here we are 10 yrs later- this very same building has no wheel chair ramp.  sad but true.

so in the larger scheme of things- how many potential projects were cancelled?

knowing this was an issue when i had habitat for humanity help me- i just did it. i even went to the newspaper. bamn. all done. i had jenn come down to make sure no horse play was done. bamn, i won. however it was "illegal". 

oh well- sue me.

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 11:40:39 AM   
Casie


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People are WAY too sue happy. When I had my daughter, I was induced with poitocin for no medical reason, told that there were no risk and it was exacally like going in to labor spontaniously which was a lie, A couple hours into labor the doctor told me I needed a c-section, I refused multiple times he told me I didn't have a choice yet another lie, I was screaming no, the whole way to the operating room, my husband was yelling at them. The doctor gave me my epidural, which it is almost of heard of now a days for a OB to do that. I could feel the entire c-section, My husband was screaming at the doctor telling him I was in pain they did nothing, I went into shock. My poor hubby was convenced I was dying. Afterwards they wouldn't give me anything for pain other than ibprofin, the doctor made me walk the halls 3 hours after the surgery. I got an infection almost died from that. I had to be re cut and stuffed full of gaze for I can't even remeber how long. I was bed ridden for almost 3 months. got horrible post partum depression. My medical chart sited CPD as the reason for the c-section which can't be diagnosed without an x-ray or a trail of pushing. I had neither. There was no fetal distress, and I was dialating just fine.  So basicaly he wanted to get home to his thanksgiving dinner.He violated the patients right act, he performed an unneeded c-section, did not inform me of the risk or benifits of ANYTHING. I didn't sue, I reported him and the hospital to the state medical board. Nothing was ever done to my knolege other than under his name on the site it says he had a complaint filed on him. This was much more than a human mistake. Looking back on it I wish I would have sued him, not for the money that wouldn't do anything to take away how tramatized I was and still am by the whole ordeal, but to put him out of business,or at the very least make him think twice before he treated another woman this way. I can't imagen how many women he has royally fucked over being scapel happy, it makes me sick. Which is why I start school in the fall to become a CNM (certified nurse midwife) So, that I can do my little part to clean up the mess that is Obsestrics in this country.

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 11:54:00 AM   
Nastgargoyle


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While I agree with your statements that the legal system is a big problem in the US with its frivolous lawsuits, I disagree that its the cause or core problem. Its just a side effect of  greed and a lack of personal responsibility.
The core problem stems from the "I deserve" generation.
An entire crop of people that were raised between the 1950's and the 1970's, who were taught by mommy, daddy, and american culture that they Deserve to be wealthy just becuase they live in a country where they Could be wealthy, they skipped over or ignored the part that said they had to Earn it.  
Somewhere in that line of time concepts of right and wrong got tossed aside, and instead the focus went from "Should I sue this company for wrong doing" to "Can I sue this company for anything".
For those people, hey its an easy way to get at that wealth everyone told them they Deserve.
Also let's not forget that this generation was also taught that they were never to blame. It just wasn't their fualt, it was That guys fualt, or That guys fualt, or even That companies fualt...hey if its Their fualt and not My fualt, I'll just sue them and make a bundle and punish them at the same time.
If I get banged up in a car wreck I tend to shame facedly look at what I did wrong to get in the wreck in the first place, not sue the car company for making the car without an airbag. But I'm in the minority of thinking and pretty much a social reject in contemporary american culture.
No the culture hasnt rejected me. I've rejected it, becuase anymore it sickens me to step out my door and look at the world we've created and remember that once upon a time when someone did something stupid, or wrong, or set themselves up for an accident to happen, they swallowed pride stood tall, and admitted they screwed up.
No I'm afraid that the main problem in america is lack of personal responsibilty and the mis-understanding that in the US your entitled to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness...and anything you can Earn.
I seem to recall reading that someplace back when it still meant something.

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 12:02:05 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The effects of the legal "industry" impact every aspect of our lives. The legal industry directly impacts all R&D, not just where its obvious such as in the drug industry, but every product. It has destroyed entire industries, such as the private plane manufacturing. The legal industry impacts those who can afford it least. "Basic Transportation" for a college student used to mean buying a $500 car from a friend and making enough to afford the gas and oil. Now it requires almost a full time job to afford the insurance. In some markets mandatory liability for a male driver under 25 begins at $2,500.00/six months; minimum coverage. A direct result of the litigation industry.

The health industry is the worst example.


Attorneys join the BAR Association, (which is a title of nobility), and they would have been banned from office but the somehow the capitol building got burned down during the war and the 13th amendment disappeared.  At least this version of it did.


Results 1 - 10 of about 810,000 for missing 13th amendment.

The book, published under authority of the War Department in 1825, proves that the original 13th Amendment that prohibits Americans from holding Titles of Nobility, was part of the Constitution until it was mysteriously replaced with a new 13th Amendment that banned slavery after the Civil War. “When we found this book last September we knew that we had found that the original 13th Amendment was part of the Constitution as of 1825,”
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/13th-Amendment.html

This Article of Amendment added an enforceable strict penalty, i.e., inability to hold office and loss of citizenship, for violations of the already existing constitutional prohibition in Article 1, Section 9, Clause 8 on titles of nobility and other conflicts of citizenship interest, such as accepting emoluments of any kind for services or favors rendered or to be rendered, and is particularly applicable today in the 21st Century as government is increasingly FOR SALE to the highest bidder, as foreign and multinational corporations and individuals compete to line the pockets of politicians and political parties to accommodate and purchase protection or privilege, i.e. honors, for their special interests.

http://www.amendment-13.org/


Their survival at stake, the monarchies sought to destroy or subvert the American system of government. Knowing they couldn't destroy us militarily, they resorted to more covert methods of political subversion, employing spies and secret agents skilled in bribery and legal deception -- it was, perhaps, the first "cold war". Since governments run on money, politicians run for money, and money is the usual enticement to commit treason, much of the monarchy's counter- revolutionary efforts emanated from English banks.
http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/E/thirteen/thirt03.htm




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 12:04:15 PM   
Mercnbeth


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Nast,
Can't disagree with anything you say. The "anybody but me" blame and fault is pervasive. I identify the legal industry as a core "cause" for the "effect".

I put it as a core problem because of the impact on our day to day living. Everything we touch, see, and do has an added cost directly from litigation. To me that falls under the definition of core.

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 12:13:45 PM   
Nastgargoyle


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Can't really call it a core cuase though.
You toss a bloody carcass in the waters and your going to draw barracuda, just a fact of nature. Lawyers exist to fill the vaccuum created by people wanting to sue everybody for doing whatever it was 'they' did wrong and making it having an impact on their lives.
Lawsuits exist becuase of lawyers, and lawyers exist becuase of a generation of people that want to sue someone and get that wealthy thing mommy and daddy said they deserved. If everyone that filed a frivilous lawsuit that was tossed out had to take a public flogging for it you'd see a sharp decline in the number of lawyers, becuase there wouldnt be as much call for their services.

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 3:29:47 PM   
Vendaval


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Definately.  The mental health field is also liability driven,
same as the rest of the health care industry.  And anyone
wanting to have an event of any kind has to take insurance
costs into account along with filing the necessary paperwork
for the city/county/venue.  This becomes more and more
onerous for non-profit groups and small organizations.
 
Would you please explain a bit about tort law?
Is that law in relation to business and legal entities?
 
Thank you,
 
Vendaval


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I put it as a core problem because of the impact on our day to day living. Everything we touch, see, and do has an added cost directly from litigation. To me that falls under the definition of core.


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 3:48:47 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Would you please explain a bit about tort law?
Is that law in relation to business and legal entities?

"Tort Law " is a distinguishing term to differentiate from "Criminal Law". The most form of tort law relates to contracts, actual and/or implied. It can be between corporations and/or individuals.

People "incorporate" to protect themselves personal from potential litigation arising from their actions. The other tactic is to form LLC's (Limited Liability Corporations) where specific assets are exposed but the major assets of a corporation or individual are protected. Of course with the right lawyer under the right circumstance you can pierce the Corporate veil.

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 5:50:52 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

You honestly think this is the "core problem" in the USA?
Yes. The effects of the legal "industry" impact every aspect of our lives. The legal industry directly impacts all R&D, not just where its obvious such as in the drug industry, but every product. It has destroyed entire industries, such as the private plane manufacturing. The legal industry impacts those who can afford it least. "Basic Transportation" for a college student used to mean buying a $500 car from a friend and making enough to afford the gas and oil. Now it requires almost a full time job to afford the insurance. In some markets mandatory liability for a male driver under 25 begins at $2,500.00/six months; minimum coverage. A direct result of the litigation industry.



My point is that these legal requirements were not created in a vacuum, Merc.

Corporations and people have screwed over people for over 100 years (or longer) and laws ended up getting set up to protect the "little guy."  Of course, since a subset of people are ethically challenged, they take advantage of those laws to try to screw other people.

I used this example before.

In California, it took me 8 months and $14,000 to evict somebody in my house.  This is because the laws are set up to protect the renter from unscrupulous landlords.

In Colorado, a landlord can load all of a tenant's stuff in a U-Haul and sell it at a yard sale.  This is because the laws are set up to protect the landlord from unscrupulous tenants.

Which is correct?  Unscrupulous people use laws to their own advantage to screw other people.

Loser pays lawsuits will not have the effect that big corporations insist they will.  It will simply protect them while they resort to massive amounts of legal counsel and time-wasting.  A perfect example is the tobacco industry.  Their stated approach to dealing with a lawsuit is to wait out the case until the claimant dies.  The law you propose would simply mean that they could do this for years, and then attach the person's property after they are dead.

quote:



The health industry is the worst example. It costs $8.00/aspirin in a hospital not because of the cost of the aspirin, but because of the insurance required for the hospital, nurse, doctor, and aspirin manufacture. The insurance is needed because of the threat of litigation. 



Why is there a threat of litigation?  Tort law did not magically appear one day.  It came about because the health industry screwed up in the past, and rather than come out and admit it and offer to fix the problem, forced the person to sue them in court to gain redress for their damages.

Your example of an $8 aspirin reminds me of the old Aerospace $400 hammer.  Insurance has nothing
to do with company A overcharging entity B for services.

quote:



Part of any tort reform would eliminate your issue and paranoia regarding corporations. 



Please provide your education, qualifications, and therapeutic records to support your psychiatric evaulation of me.

If it was simply an attempt to be insulting, you need more practice.

quote:



A loser pays process would give no incentive by the corporations to defer settlement. The opposite would occur, because time = interest. Also you should be aware in the event of the litigant death, the lawsuit services with the benefit going to the estate.



It doesnt work that way.  See earlier comments about the tobacco industry.

quote:



Not all mistakes are criminal.



Never said they were.  I did say they are a mistake.  If somebody cuts off my left leg when they should have cut off my right leg, do you really think that doctor and hospital should be able to go "oops, sorry" and not have to make some form of recompense for their mistake? 

Should I be entitled to damages of some sort to allow me to make whatever life I am able to afterwards?

quote:



To you this is a criminal act?



It is?

Please provide your source material to prove I think asbestos manufacturing is a criminal act.

quote:



When a crime occurs committed by a corporation, corporate officers are tried criminally; Enron for example. When the Manville company, manufacturer of asbestos was brought to court for their liability there officers were not charged criminally. With Enron, nobody died. Manville killed tens of thousands. Unintentionally, but the victims are still dead. The lawyers killed not only the company, (bankruptcy 1982) but the NJ city where it was based, and ended the manufacturing lives of all those working there. Was there justice in both cases, or should criminal charges been brought against Manville?



I think you are confusing criminal and civil law, Merc.

If a company makes a product that kills me, or releases gas that kills my family, or whatever, I think the company should be held responsible for their actions or negligience.

Chevron hired an alcoholic ship captain, did not provide backup people to make sure the ship would not run aground, and destroyed for years or millenia an ecosystem in Alaska.

Did the company offer to pay the millions of dollars it would require to send hordes of people up there to fix the problem?  No.  They didnt.  They did absolutely nothing to take responsibility for what their company had done until they were forced to pay fines by a legal entity.

quote:



You have a mixed bag in your examples. Voluntary surgery comes with voluntary risk.



Hrm, I am not signing on for a voluntary amputation, please clarify this statement.

quote:



Put a bag of silicon liquid in your chest after reading all the disclaimers and  warning didn't dissuade you.



Weird, so why did their company lobby Congress get a law passed to absolve them of responsibility for making them?

quote:



If mercury in vaccines got there by design it is criminal; as long as the comprehensive R&D contained those results. If the same vaccine prevented millions to avoid accidents but 10 to die and that factor was public knowledge; personal decision applies as do personal consequence. It becomes a pragmatic personal decision. It the reason why no vaccine should be mandatory and you shouldn't need a "religious" reason.



Well, actually, it was not determined to be a health hazard until recently when the companies were forced to disclose the contents of their vaccines.

It might interest you to know that since these vaccines were taken out of use in the United States because they are dangerous and linked to the Autism epidemic, the Pharma companies have sold them to China.

Coincidentally, China is currently experiencing an Autism epidemic.

quote:



Your argument points to the present situation being better able to pursue litigation against corporations. That would mean you think we are currently in an Utopian world for the individual to sue corporations. You believe that now a person stands on equal ground after they are "screwed over by large corporations"?



Utopian world.

Well, ok.

quote:



I'm sure all those waiting for their $3,000.00 'windfall' for their silicon breast implant, would disagree. But the law firm who received 35% of the $57 Million settlement would hope more people feel as you do - maintain the status quo.



You seem to think the company that made them with inadequate R&D and testing of their product obviously deserves that money more.

quote:


The Settlement Facility-Dow Corning Trust (SF-DCT) has extended to all eligible Class 7 claimants who have had received Mentor, Cox-Uphoff or Bioplasty breast implants, a chance to settle their claim early.  A check in the amount of $3,000.00 was mailed to all eligible Class 7 claimants with the settlement offer from the SF-DCT. Source: http://www.frailichlaw.com/breakingdowcorningnews_feb_2007.html 


This was after the lawsuit was afforded class action status.

Not before.

In other words, Corporations dont do things for the greater good. 

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 6:03:47 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Nast,
Can't disagree with anything you say. The "anybody but me" blame and fault is pervasive. I identify the legal industry as a core "cause" for the "effect".

I put it as a core problem because of the impact on our day to day living. Everything we touch, see, and do has an added cost directly from litigation. To me that falls under the definition of core.


changing the definitions of the words clearly identified in blacks and creating narrow specifics that violate the constitution that continually grow wider is what fries my ass.

We have several sets of laws all containing different freaking defitions that are NOT qualified in the law dict.

Oh yeh and they have slowly switched to using the oxford(uk) dictionary to replace ours where there is a distinct shift in definition as well!!!  speaking earliuer of nibility





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/2/2007 6:05:11 PM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 6:21:52 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

here you go right out of the law dict from 1856

TORT. An injury; a wrong; (q. v.) hence the expression an executor de son tort, of his own wrong. Co. Lit. 158.

2. Torts may be committed with force, as trespasses, which may be an injury to the person, such as assault, battery, imprisonment; to the property in possession; or they may be committed without force. Torts of this nature are to the absolute or relative rights of persons, or to personal property in possession or reversion, or to real property, corporeal or encorporeal, in possession or reversion: these injuries may be either by nonfeasance, malfeasance, or misfeasance. 1 Chit. Pl. 133-4. Vide 1 Fonb. Eq. 4; Inst. Index, h. t.; and the article Injury.



CORPORATION. An aggregate corporation is an ideal body, created by law, composed of individuals united under a common name, the members of which succeed each other, so that the body continues the same, notwithstanding the changes of the individuals who compose it, and which for certain purposes is considered as a natural person. Browne's Civ. Law, 99; Civ. Code of Lo. art. 418; 2 Kent's Com. 215. Mr. Kyd, (Corpor. vol. 1, p. 13,) defines a corporation as follows: " A corporation, or body politic, or body incorporate, is a collection of many; individuals united in one body, under a special denomination, having perpetual succession under an artificial form, and vested by the policy of the law, with a capacity of acting in several respects as an individual, particularly of taking and granting property, contracting obligations, and of suing and being sued; of enjoying privileges and immunities in common, and of exercising a variety of political rights, more or less extensive, according to the design of its institution, or the powers conferred upon it, either at the time of its creation, or at any subsequent period of its existence." In the case of Dartmouth College against Woodward, 4 Wheat. Rep. 626, Chief Justice Marshall describes a corporation to be "an artificial being, invisible, intangible, and existing only in contemplation of law. Being the mere creature of law," continues the judge, "it possesses only those properties which the charter of its creation confers upon it, either expressly or as incidental to its very existence. These are such as are supposed best calculated to effect the object for which it was created. Among the most important are immortality, and if the expression may be allowed, individuality properties by which a perpetual succession of many persons are considered, as the same, and may act as the single individual, They enable a corporation to manage its own affairs, and to hold property without the perplexing intricacies, the hazardous and endless necessityof perpetual conveyance for the purpose of transmitting it from hand to hand. It is chiefly for the purpose of clothing bodies of men, in succession, with these qualities and capacities, that corporations were invented, and are in use." See 2 Bl. Corn. 37.

2. The words corporation and incorporation are frequently confounded, particularly in the old books. The distinction between them is, however, obvious; the one is the institution itself, the other the act by which the institution is created.

3. Corporations are divided into public and private.

4. Public corporations, which are also called political, and sometimes municipal corporations, are those which have for their object the government of 'a portion of the state; Civil Code of Lo. art. 420 and although in such case it involves some private interests, yet, as it is endowed with a portion of political power, the term public has been deemed appropriate.

5. Another class of public corporations are those which are founded for public, though not for political or municipal purposes, and the, whole interest in which belongs to the government. The Bank of Philadelphia, for example, if the whole stock belonged exclusively to the government, would be a public corporation; but inasmuch as there are other owners of the stock, it is a private corporation. Domat's Civil Law,- 452 4 Wheat. R. 668; 9 Wheat. R. 907 8 M'Cord's R. 377 1 Hawk's R. 36; 2 Kent's Corn. 222.

6. Nations or states, are denominated by publicists, bodies politic, and are said to have their affairs and interests, and to deliberate and resolve, in common. They thus become as moral persons, having an understanding and will peculiar to themselves, and are susceptible of obligations and laws. Vattel, 49. In this extensive sense the United States may be termed a corporation; and so may each state singly. Per Iredell, J. 3 Dall. 447.

7. Private corporations. In the popular meaning of the term, nearly every corporation is public, inasmuch as they are created for the public benefit; but if the whole interest does not belong to the government, or if the corporation is not created for the administration of political or municipal power, the corporation is private. A bank, for instance, may be created by the government for its own uses; but if the stock is owned by private persons, it is a private corporation, although it is created by the government, and its operations partake of a private nature. 9 Wheat. R. 907. The rule is the same in the case of canal, bridge, turnpike, insurance companies, and the like. Charitable or literary corporations, founded by private benefaction, are in point of law private corporations, though dedicated to public charity, or for the general promotion of learning. Ang. & Ames on Corp. 22.

8. Private corporations are divided into ecclesiastical and lay.

9. Ecclesiastical corporations, in the United States, are commonly called religious corporations they are created to enable religious societies to manage with more facility and advantage, the temporalities belonging to the church or congregation.

10. Lay corporations are divided into civil and eleemosynary. Civil corporations are created for an infinite variety of temporal purposes, such as affording facilities for obtaining loans of money; the making of canals, turnpike roads, and the like. And also such as are established for the advancement of learning. 1 Bl. Com. 471.

11. Eleemosynary corporations are such as are instituted upon a principle of charity, their object being the perpetual distribution of the bounty of the founder of them, to such persons as he has directed. Of this kind are hospitals for the relief of the impotent, indigent and sick, or deaf and dumb. 1 Kyd on Corp. 26; 4 Conn. R. 272; Angell & A. on Corp. 26.

12. Corporations, considered in another point of view, are either sole or agregate.

13. A sole corporation, as its name implies, consists of only one person, to whom and his successors belongs that legal perpetuity, the enjoyment of which is denied to all natural persons. 1 Black Com. 469. Those corporations are not common in the United States. In those states, however, where the religious establishment of the church of England was adopted, when they were colonies, together with the common law on that subject, the minister of the parish was seised of the freehold, as persona ecclesiae, in the same manner as in England; and the right of his successors to the freehold being thus established was not destroyed by the abolition of the regal government, nor can it be divested even by an act of the state legislature. 9 Cranch, 828.

14. A sole corporation cannot take personal property in succession; its corporate capacity of taking property is confined altogether to real estate. 9 Crancb, 43.

15. An aggregate corporation cousists of several persons, who are' united in one society, which is continued by a succession of members. Of this kind are the mayor or commonalty of a city; the heads and fellows of a college; the members of trading companies, and the like. 1 Kyd on Corp. 76; 2 Kent's Com. 221 Ang. & A. on Corp. 20. See, generally, Inst. Index, h. t.



An interesting thing to investigate is the COLOR of law.

COLOR, pleading. It is of two kinds, namely, express color, and implied color. 2. Express color. This is defined to be a feigned matter, pleaded by the defendant, in an action of trespass, from which the plaintiff seems to have a good cause of action, whereas he has in truth only an appearance or color of cause. The practice of giving express color in pleas, obtained in the mixed actions of assize, the writ of entry in the nature of assize, as well as in the personal action of trespass. Steph. on Plead. 230; Bac. Ab. Trespass, 14.


Remember a corporation is a "straw man" and has no rights though you hear it in the news and else where that they do! They do not!  Only a human can have a right.  google straw man for lots of good reads on it, also the federal gove...  well that is a corporation according to the constition thus again legitimately under "our" control!  ha!

just some info i thought i woudl throw out since i am sort of into it.  LOL

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 6:39:15 PM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I would agree to legislate "loser pays" lawsuits if a way could be found to enforce compliance with laws in effect in this country.

The problem with passing these laws is that a large corporation will put 100 lawyers on a case to tie it up in court until after the litigant dies or gives up. 


You don't think that happens under the current system? Research SLAPP lawsuits.

i agree that the tort system is one of the major factors dragging this country down.

If nothing else, it's kept me out of the BDSM toy manufacturing business

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 6:58:57 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

You don't think that happens under the current system? Research SLAPP lawsuits.



I do agree it happens under the current system.

Loser pays lawsuits will only protect corporate entities who can afford to have entire buildings filled with attorneys whose only purpose in life is to pass motions to delay and waste money and fritter away the resources of the litigant.

My point is that I would rather err on the side of the person, as opposed to the corporation.  There is only so much an individual can do (Timothy McVeigh) and a whole lot an Organization can do (Halliburton, Exxon, Enron, etc)
to screw things up.

Sinergy

p.s.  I used to work for a company that provided expert analysis of a product to aid in the defense of a large corporation, so I know how the system works.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to petdave)
Profile   Post #: 20
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