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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:04:12 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

It is accurate - read the research.


Cite the research.

I disagree from first hand research.  I find alleged and uncited sources a dubious claim base.


Well i am not going to do the work for you - i too have worked with rape victims as well as written a mini thesis on just this subject about 15 years ago.  There is overwhelming evidence that rape is not an act of sex (sex is the means) it is an act of voilence and control over another person as a way to degrade and humiliate them.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:06:38 PM   
Sinergy


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Status: offline 		Seems to me having read the thread that velvetears and CuriousLord are saying the same thing.

Rape is an act of violence, not sex.

Sinergy

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:07:05 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

It is accurate - read the research.


Uh, CuriousLord is correct.

It is rape.

On the other hand, I dont think it is sex.

Susan Brownmiller, "Men, Women, and Rape."

Let me know if you need dozens of other sources after you finish that book.

Sinergy


If you read CL's post he says it is about sex, at least some of the time??? If you agree then you contradicted yourself with the statement i bolded??

[edited to add CL's previous post]

Not to pick on you, I just hate this line.  It's so cliche and it's not accurate!

Rape can be about violence and control and not sex.
Rape can be about sex.
It can swing either way.  Or both.  It's freaking rape.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 5/3/2007 8:11:48 PM >

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:09:57 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Two things.

First.
Research is something that the arguer provides.  If you're unable to cite it, it's crap, to be blunt with you.  This is why papers have 'works cited' and citations.

Further-
If you want to go by a system of "I say something that sounds like shit, then I tell you you're the one who's supposed to  look it up", then UFO's have abducted everyone in NYC and replaced them with androids in 1956.  Then returned the people back to their normal positions and left behind a couple after dinner mints for the abductee victims as a sign of appreciation.  It's written somewhere, but I'm not citing it.  You look it up.

Second.
People do many different things for many different reasons.  You'd be incredible naive to believe rape happened for a single, consistent reason.  Even more naive to believe rape has never occured for sexual reasons.

I mean, damn.  Sometimes a sociopath gets tired of whacking it and wants a pussy.  You really think it's never happened?  Or has only happened once or twice?  Get real.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:12:15 PM   
Sinergy


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Status: offline 		Sigh.

I dont want to argue with you, velvetears, on this subject.

A woman who is raped might have a physical reaction to the act of violence perpetrated against her person.  She might even enjoy it. 

But what will haunt her the rest of her life, as if somebody hacked a part of her soul away with a rusty Old Hickory butcher knife, is the overwhelming sense of a loss of control over her person and her life.  All of this caused by some twisted motherf*cker who I would be the first in line to put a bullet in that sick assholes head.

I apologize if anything I posted upset you.  I happen to have worked with 100s of survivors and perhaps I have reactions and feelings about the entire subject that I have not worked through.

Peace out.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:12:26 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		I'm arguing rape can happen for either sexual desire or for the desire to dominate.

She's arguing rape happens for the desire to dominate and never a sexual desire.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:15:30 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Two things.

First.
Research is something that the arguer provides.  If you're unable to cite it, it's crap, to be blunt with you.  This is why papers have 'works cited' and citations.

Further-
If you want to go by a system of "I say something that sounds like shit, then I tell you you're the one who's supposed to  look it up", then UFO's have abducted everyone in NYC and replaced them with androids in 1956.  Then returned the people back to their normal positions and left behind a couple after dinner mints for the abductee victims as a sign of appreciation.  It's written somewhere, but I'm not citing it.  You look it up.

Second.
People do many different things for many different reasons.  You'd be incredible naive to believe rape happened for a single, consistent reason.  Even more naive to believe rape has never occured for sexual reasons.

I mean, damn.  Sometimes a sociopath gets tired of whacking it and wants a pussy.  You really think it's never happened?  Or has only happened once or twice?  Get real.


When you have given citations on where it is stated rape IS sex then maybe i will take you half way seriously.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:15:55 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I'm arguing rape can happen for either sexual desire or for the desire to dominate.

She's arguing rape happens for the desire to dominate and never a sexual desire.


I dont agree with you, CuriousLord.

If she says "no" (or whatever safe word you come up with) it is RAPE.

Sinergy

p.s.  If she agreed to be in a dynamic with the person, then the parameters of their dynamic apply.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:16:34 PM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		With having an interest in psychology, I've always wondered why some women have "rape fantasies." I never really understood why that becomes a sexual fantasy. Perhaps it has more to do with the control issue. Maybe these women like the idea of losing control during sex and being "taken." Because any woman into the brutallity or violence part of it I think has some psychological issues.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:19:09 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		I think you've misunderstood what we're debating.

We agree it's rape in the absense of consent.  We're debating the motivation of the rapists.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:21:19 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Two things.

First.
Research is something that the arguer provides.  If you're unable to cite it, it's crap, to be blunt with you.  This is why papers have 'works cited' and citations.

Further-
If you want to go by a system of "I say something that sounds like shit, then I tell you you're the one who's supposed to  look it up", then UFO's have abducted everyone in NYC and replaced them with androids in 1956.  Then returned the people back to their normal positions and left behind a couple after dinner mints for the abductee victims as a sign of appreciation.  It's written somewhere, but I'm not citing it.  You look it up.

Second.
People do many different things for many different reasons.  You'd be incredible naive to believe rape happened for a single, consistent reason.  Even more naive to believe rape has never occured for sexual reasons.

I mean, damn.  Sometimes a sociopath gets tired of whacking it and wants a pussy.  You really think it's never happened?  Or has only happened once or twice?  Get real.


When you have given citations on where it is stated rape IS sex then maybe i will take you half way seriously.


Fine.  And I won't take you halfway seriously about UFO's not abducting people in NYC until you find a provide a cite.

I hope you realize you're under no obligation to provide a cite, nor do I have a vested interest in you citing it.  Your argument is simply invalid until you do.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:21:21 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Sigh.

I dont want to argue with you, velvetears, on this subject.

A woman who is raped might have a physical reaction to the act of violence perpetrated against her person.  She might even enjoy it. 

i agree - she may indeed respond and gain some pleasure from the act and this can lead the victim to experience a lot of confusion and guilt over the whole ordeal.

But what will haunt her the rest of her life, as if somebody hacked a part of her soul away with a rusty Old Hickory butcher knife, is the overwhelming sense of a loss of control over her person and her life.  All of this caused by some twisted motherf*cker who I would be the first in line to put a bullet in that sick assholes head.

Agree again - her loss of control over her person is exactly what the rapist wants.

I apologize if anything I posted upset you.  I happen to have worked with 100s of survivors and perhaps I have reactions and feelings about the entire subject that I have not worked through.

i certainly did not intend to upset anyone, hope i haven't you. Nothing posted upset me in the least, i just wanted to point out that CL and i had differing views on rape being sex as opposed to it not being about sex, it appeared to me perhaps you confused our two posts as you saw what we said as being the same when indeed it wasn't. Sorry if i touched on a subject close to your heart.

Peace out.

Sinergy


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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:32:11 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Fine.  And I won't take you halfway seriously about UFO's not abducting people in NYC until you find a provide a cite.

I hope you realize you're under no obligation to provide a cite, nor do I have a vested interest in you citing it.  Your argument is simply invalid until you do.


Then 99% of whats in these boards is invalid.  People can have knowledge of a subject and not be a walking citation encyclopedia, or want to waste time doing so.  i could say your argument is equally invalid untill you prove by citation as well.  Get real. When ever someone disagrees with another they pull the old - well cite references BS - take it for what it's worth, its a message board not a dissertation i have to prove.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:32:19 PM   
texancutie


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Status: offline 		Rape fantasies have nothing really to do with a real rape.  It's not like most women that have them, want some smelly vagrant who doesn't practice safe sex to do it.  With a real rape one does not have a choice.  So yes, it is about being taken, and the control, and the roleplay.  Which in itself is consensual as well.

Anyway, those university girls the OP was talking about, really are out there in the ozone somewhere.  Being sheltered tends to do that at times.  But then you grow up...usually.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:35:03 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Okay, I just have to ask this.

You say rape is always about domination, never about sex, right?

What about college guys who get a girl drunk stupid, or throw a date rape drug into her beer?  Most of those don't wake up in the morning tied or bound- just raped.
What about the martial rapes, such as in Darfur (sp?)?  Those soldiers are raping victims under orders in order to spread their genetics.
What about the pedophile uncle babysitting his little niece for a weekend?  I can tell you right now, he just wants to have sex with a kid.

I just don't know how you can even believe something so blind as to be convinced rape can only happen for one reason.  I'm trying my best to respect your point of view here, but it seems like your logic is being obstructed by some sort of agenda.  What vested interest do you have in rape being solely about domination?

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:42:31 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Okay, I just have to ask this.

You say rape is always about domination, never about sex, right?

What about college guys who get a girl drunk stupid, or throw a date rape drug into her beer?  Most of those don't wake up in the morning tied or bound- just raped.
What about the martial rapes, such as in Darfur (sp?)?  Those soldiers are raping victims under orders in order to spread their genetics.
What about the pedophile uncle babysitting his little niece for a weekend?  I can tell you right now, he just wants to have sex with a kid.

I just don't know how you can even believe something so blind as to be convinced rape can only happen for one reason.  I'm trying my best to respect your point of view here, but it seems like your logic is being obstructed by some sort of agenda.  What vested interest do you have in rape being solely about domination?


i never used the word domination in relation to rape i used the terms violence and control, degradation and humiliation.  i said it wasn't about sex, that sex was the means to achive those others goals.  You used the term domination, not i.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:44:04 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Alright, I was just paraphrasing.  Whatever floats your boat.  Then you may answer my previous post with the phrase "violence and control, degradation and humiliation" in place of instances of "domination".

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:48:22 PM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		Sex is mutual, both parties benefit from the encounter. All the exapmles you cited speak clearly to me its about control not sex.... how do you see any of that being sex??? i am truly puzzled.  The rapist gets aroused yes, but the idea that hes forcing, controling, violating, humiliating and degrading leads him to become aroused not the idea that hes sharing a mutually consenting encounter with someone who has equal say in whats going to occur.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:48:38 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		If I kidnap some rich businessman for ransom, tie him up and then just for my amusement torture him- and then I find by his reaction that he likes this sort of scenario - does that make for a reasonable legal defence I wonder?

E
No. 7492945
Cell 53, Block C
HMP Wormwood Scrubs
England

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:56:52 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Sex is mutual, both parties benefit from the encounter.


Yup, stop right there.  We have a major disagreement.

Sex is sexual contact between animals.  This may or may not be benifical to any particular animal involved in the act.  (Your definition would even exclude things such as newly weds on their hunny moon, should one give the other an STD!)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
All the exapmles you cited speak clearly to me its about control not sex....


Hell no.  Major disagreement again.

The college date rapist wants to have an orgasm in a hot girl.  That's purely sexual.  There may be domination in his motivation as well, just like there may be a Skittle in a bag of candy.  But it's about the sex.

In Darfur (sp?), they're trying to get rid of other ethnic groups by spreading their genes.  It's not about control.  It's about making babies.

A pedophiliac uncle touching his young niece isn't about control.  It's about a man who's only sexually attracted to children finally seeing his chance to have the object of his desires.

None of those things were about domination!

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
The rapist gets aroused yes, but the idea that hes forcing, controling, violating, humiliating and degrading leads him to become aroused not the idea that hes sharing a mutually consenting encounter with someone who has equal say in whats going to occur.


Yeah, that can be pretty kinky.  That's what a lot of us here in the BDSM world look to simulate.  So, maybe, your scope is used to looking for that.

But, believe it or not, for most people, sex is about having an orgasm and feeling good.  For those who have no other means of achieving this, rape's an option.

Then again, some people get off on being dominant.  Hah, I should know!  Everyone on this site should.  But don't, for an instant, forget we're the exceptions.  People without D/s interests or fantascies rape, too.

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