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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:58:22 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

If I kidnap some rich businessman for ransom, tie him up and then just for my amusement torture him- and then I find by his reaction that he likes this sort of scenario - does that make for a reasonable legal defence I wonder?

E
No. 7492945
Cell 53, Block C
HMP Wormwood Scrubs
England


What was this in response to?

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 8:59:32 PM   
soultoshare


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Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		Curious, more often than not, the act of rape itself has no bearing on sex...sex is the weapon used by a rapist.  Rape debases a victim on a gut level, causes guilt in the mind of the victim for years, but if you ask a rapist, and trust me, there are people out there who have done EXTENSIVE studies on this, the rapist will tell you that the sex was only second to being able to exert control over their victim.  Some rapists see the sexual act as a way to put their victim "in their place", others actually believe the victim WANTS sex, regardless of how much they fight to stop the rapist.

The statement that velvetears made is NOT a cliche....regardless of how control is gained over the victim, rape is NOT about the sex.  BTW...been there, done that, sent the T-shirt back.  And i have seen victims way too many times, both alive and dead not to believe it.  In my experience, you will never convince me that rape is about the sex.  But that's just my opinion, we're all entitled to that.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:02:16 PM   
Caius


Posts: 175
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		Velvetears, I'm afraid CuriousLord is correct, at least so far as the research is concerned.  The whole "rape is solely an act of violence" theory was always more a product of sociological work and pop psychology than any real empirical study of the pathology of rapists.    The psychological community at large now seems to at last be going through efforts to distance itself from this slogan on the grounds it is overly simplistic.   But the phrase is likely to endure, I suspect, if only because of it's wide use in psychiatry, often in trying to help women come to terms with what has happened to them.  After all, who cares what the most accurate classification of the rapist's motives are when a victim needs a reason to explain why someone would harm her in this manner.

But in any account,  your debate is largely one of semantics and certainly not something that lends itself to strict empirical exclamations of what the ultiamte driving factor is.  For obvious reasons, we can't stick electrodes in the heads of rapists to tell us which areas of the rbeain are showing intensive firing during the act, as we can many other actions.   Short of that, any debate on drives is prone to all the pitfalls that plague any kind of study of pragmatic psychology.   And both of you start fromt he tacit assumption that these two drives, sexual arousal and and the thrill of power, are two spereate entities -- something that tells me neither of you has done all that much research in the field -- whereas serious study in mind and behavioursim has firmly established that we do not dissect or process excitment int his way.    That is to say, we have general arousal, often with a strong physiological componenet, that we then impose a mental construct of an emotion or drive over, often arbitrarily and after the fact.  Even if you chose not to trust me on this point,   I can't see how anyone can see absolutist statement in drives, especially in a case of sucha  muddled pheneomena where 1) indviddual pathologies are varied and complex and 2) its study is further confused by the prejudices we bring into the subject matter.

< Message edited by Caius -- 5/3/2007 9:05:44 PM >

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:03:31 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Rape can be about sex.  I've stated three examples- all three being common occurances- and, in two of them, it is.  In one of them, a third cause is the reason for rape.

Rape can also be about domination.  But, if you want to tell me it's never about sex, then you tell me why guys on dorm get girls here drunk and do them.  Then tell me why the same guys voted me out of the room after they found out I had a slave.

What part of can be do people not understand?  There isn't one reason for rape.  I've already cited examples.  No one's cited any example, reason, or proof that rape can't be about wanting to have an orgasm, plain and simple.  Jeeze.  This baseless argument's getting annoying.  =/

And, yes, it's cliche.  Cliche means it's a phrase people use a lot, and I've heard it a lot, used in cliche mannerisms.  Therefore, it is.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:09:28 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Lack of consent defines rape, not lack of pleasure.

FirmKY


<---what FirmhandKY said
It is sad that many don't understand what the definition of rape IS.
It has nothing to do with whether she likes it or NOT, it is being taken
AGAINST her will.--simply LACK OF CONSENT.
FYI
rape n. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse. The act of seizing and carrying off by force;

< Message edited by MzMia -- 5/3/2007 9:16:20 PM >

_____________________________

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To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:23:17 PM   
velvetears


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Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		CuriousLord stated (in italics): What about college guys who get a girl drunk stupid, or throw a date rape drug into her beer?  Are they not controlling the girl in order to have sex with her?  They cannot connect in a normal way with a woman and have to resort to control to get sex.  Would you agree that the girl will wake up and feel violated and humiliated?  Can you say 100% for sure that was not his intention, his only intention was to satisfy his erection... come on

What about the martial rapes, such as in Darfur (sp?)?  Those soldiers are raping victims under orders in order to spread their genetics. Clearly and loudly this is about control! NOT sex.... they are controling breeding. 

What about the pedophile uncle babysitting his little niece for a weekend?  And why do you think pedo's are attracted to children - because they can control them and they feel superior to children. Adults intimidate them.



< Message edited by velvetears -- 5/3/2007 9:25:34 PM >

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:25:29 PM   
Mellissande


Posts: 435
Joined: 4/22/2007
Status: offline 		After reading all of what has been said, I am inclined to believe CuriousLord. Having been raped myself by a man who decided that after having started seducing me he wasn't going to stop because he wanted to orgasm. There was no control issue there. He just Wanted to get his rocks off.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:26:00 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

If I kidnap some rich businessman for ransom, tie him up and then just for my amusement torture him- and then I find by his reaction that he likes this sort of scenario - does that make for a reasonable legal defence I wonder?

E
No. 7492945
Cell 53, Block C
HMP Wormwood Scrubs
England


What was this in response to?


Absolutely nothing. No connection whatever to a situation where someone happens to get aroused from being non consensually violated.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:26:57 PM   
MzMia


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Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

CuriousLord stated (in italics): What about college guys who get a girl drunk stupid, or throw a date rape drug into her beer?  Are they not controlling the girl in order to have sex with her?  They cannot connect in a normal way with a woman and have to resort to control to get sex.  Would you agree that the girl will wake up and feel violated and humiliated?  Can you say 100% for sure that was not his intention, his only intention was to satisfy his erection... come on

What about the martial rapes, such as in Darfur (sp?)?  Those soldiers are raping victims under orders in order to spread their genetics. Clearly and loudly this is about control! NOT sex.... they are controling breeding. 

What about the pedophile uncle babysitting his little niece for a weekend?  And why do you think pedo's are attracted to children - because they can control them and they feel superior to children. Adults intimidate them.

Thank you Velvetears, I find it sad that so many adults don't know the defintion of rape.
Or the difference between "play consensual sex" or real rape.
Many here are beginning to scare me now and I am serious.




_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:27:50 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mellissande

After reading all of what has been said, I am inclined to believe CuriousLord. Having been raped myself by a man who decided that after having started seducing me he wasn't going to stop because he wanted to orgasm. There was no control issue there. He just Wanted to get his rocks off.


I guess I have not done a complete research into the mind of the rapist.

What haunts me when I try to go to sleep are the stories of the rape survivors, the looks in her/his eyes, the sense that a part of their soul was chainsawed away, the feeling that her/his whole life is an attempt to become whole again.

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Mellissande)
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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:29:08 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

CuriousLord stated (in italics): What about college guys who get a girl drunk stupid, or throw a date rape drug into her beer?  Are they not controlling the girl in order to have sex with her?  They cannot connect in a normal way with a woman and have to resort to control to get sex.  Would you agree that the girl will wake up and feel violated and humiliated?  Can you say 100% for sure that was not his intention, his only intention was to satisfy his erection... come on

What about the martial rapes, such as in Darfur (sp?)?  Those soldiers are raping victims under orders in order to spread their genetics. Clearly and loudly this is about control! NOT sex.... they are controling breeding. 

What about the pedophile uncle babysitting his little niece for a weekend?  And why do you think pedo's are attracted to children - because they can control them and they feel superior to children. Adults intimidate them.

Thank you Velvetears, I find it sad that so many adults don't know the defintion of rape.
Or the difference between "play consensual sex" or real rape.
Many here are beginning to scare me now and I am serious.





i am absolutely flabergasted MzMia... i learned things tonight better left unlearend.

_____________________________

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:32:57 PM   
Mellissande


Posts: 435
Joined: 4/22/2007
Status: offline 		You are right Sinergy, it sucks, but most of the survivors are searching for something to justify the way they feel. Believing that it was completely about control not sex keeps them sane, allows them the ability to have sex again eventually without feeling raped all over again...

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:34:22 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

CuriousLord stated (in italics): What about college guys who get a girl drunk stupid, or throw a date rape drug into her beer?  Are they not controlling the girl in order to have sex with her?  They cannot connect in a normal way with a woman and have to resort to control to get sex.  Would you agree that the girl will wake up and feel violated and humiliated?  Can you say 100% for sure that was not his intention, his only intention was to satisfy his erection... come on

(In the future, it's cleaner to use quotes than italics.)

Yeah, they're controlling the girl.  Yeah, if she woke up, she'd feel violated, and maybe humilated (depending on the girl).  But you're saying it's about those things.

I don't know about you, but I hop in my car to get to work.  It's not about controlling the car, even though I'm commanding it's every move, and even the speed at which it makes them, closely monitering the dials to make sure it's obeying me as desired.  I'm just trying not to be late to work or get a speeding ticket on the way!

A guy date raping a girl uses control, of course.  You use control when you pick up a pencil or open a door.  In this case, it happens to be over another person.  But, in the end, it's not about that control.  It's about what he's doing- thrusting his cock in and out of her pussy until he has an orgasm or two.

Now, your argument is "is it really 100% about the sex?"  As I said, no, it's not always.  My argument was that rape can be about a mix of things.  You were the one claiming rape was always and only about one thing!

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
What about the martial rapes, such as in Darfur (sp?)?  Those soldiers are raping victims under orders in order to spread their genetics. Clearly and loudly this is about control! NOT sex.... they are controling breeding. 


Again, that's like saying writing a paper's about controlling what the paper says.  They're trying to make babies.  They're using physical control to achieve this, but it's not about controlling their victims- it's about having babies with half their genes!

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
What about the pedophile uncle babysitting his little niece for a weekend?  And why do you think pedo's are attracted to children - because they can control them and they feel superior to children. Adults intimidate them.


I can't express how self-serving or ignorant this assumption is.  And, yes, I'm aware other people believe it too.  But is it so hard for you to believe that they just find children more physically attractive?  If it is, why?  Once you've answered why, why do you believe this is valid to apply to everyone else in the world?

----
Having made it thoroughly, I'll reiterate my point.  Rape can be about controlling someone else.  Rape can be about sex.  Rape can be about other things.  Rape is not always about just control.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:38:43 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you for the words, Mellissande.

Some nights when I come home from work are easier.  Other nights it comes home
with me.

Half of the issue is that most of the women I am a mock assailant for, as one of the creepiest and nastiest
mock assailants working (from what I am told) talk about how much they enjoy fighting me.

I just want to go take a shower and cry for awhile.

I intellectually know why this is important, but the tragedy of that comment (enjoying fighting after learning how
to protect oneself from having violence afflicted against one) really bothers me on some level.

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Mellissande)
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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:39:15 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mellissande

You are right Sinergy, it sucks, but most of the survivors are searching for something to justify the way they feel. Believing that it was completely about control not sex keeps them sane, allows them the ability to have sex again eventually without feeling raped all over again...


This is a neat idea.

And, welcome to the boards, Mellissande.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:41:56 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Mellissande i am very sorry for your experience and hope you have healed from such a horric ordeal.  

The fact that you resisted him in his attempt to seduce you, could this not have been the catalyst to create in him the drive to rape you?  Lots of plain old horny men can stop when a woman says no. Rapists cannot and many feel rage at being told no - that's what makes them rapists, they loose control of the situation and have to resort to control and force to get their way.   

At any rate i don't want to make a comment that will be offensive to you.. just suggesting a different way of looking at it. Anyway you look at it you were not at fault whatsoever in anything you chose to do or not do.  Rape is never justified.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:46:54 PM   
Mellissande


Posts: 435
Joined: 4/22/2007
Status: offline 		Sinergy, I am sure They do not mean it in the manner that you are taking it. and in some ways, they are saying that they enjoyed fighting you because they trust you. like a sub trusts her Dom. Do you understand what I mean? I am absolutely sure that they would not feel the same for an actual attacker.

Thank you CuriousLord. and I speak from experience. I have been raped and molested many times. (only raped once) The repercussions are horrible, but that doesn't mean that that is what the rapist wanted. The man that raped me was truely horrified at what he'd done. He was not a dominant man. He was not looking to defile and control me. he was trying to have sex with me and ended up getting it... that's what happens sometimes...

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:48:46 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

The fact that you resisted him in his attempt to seduce you, could this not have been the catalyst to create in him the drive to rape you?     



The problem I have with this, velvetears, is that it adds a level of blame to the rape survivor.

I am of the opinion that even if Jupiter is in the House of Saturn, if a woman says she doesnt want to be raped, that pretty much means NO SHE DOESNT WANT TO BE RAPED.

On a related note, at the final class of the people I work with the woman tells the students that it is their responsiblity to "say no when they mean no, and yes when they mean yes."

Sinergy

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:52:12 PM   
Mellissande


Posts: 435
Joined: 4/22/2007
Status: offline 		Velvetears, I was not resisting. I was right along with him until he started to try to actually insert. And by the way, he was 18 and I was 16. he was old by no means, he was still a virgin as well... I just decided that I didn't want sex and he was too close to getting something he'd wanted for a long time... I was a virgin at the time and By the time I decided I wanted to sytay that way, he was too ready...

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/3/2007 9:53:50 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

The fact that you resisted him in his attempt to seduce you, could this not have been the catalyst to create in him the drive to rape you?     



The problem I have with this, velvetears, is that it adds a level of blame to the rape survivor.

I am of the opinion that even if Jupiter is in the House of Saturn, if a woman says she doesnt want to be raped, that pretty much means NO SHE DOESNT WANT TO BE RAPED.

On a related note, at the final class of the people I work with the woman tells the students that it is their responsiblity to "say no when they mean no, and yes when they mean yes."

Sinergy


i in no way shape or form believe or espouse that a woman has any blame on any level when she is raped. i want to make that clear.  The fact that a rapist gets off on resistance is HIS problem not the rape victims.  That's what make them rapists - they use force and control, in fact having to use it is what they need to feed their sick desire.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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