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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 5:39:09 AM   
Viridana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mellissande

I guess that kinda sounds like a story I pulled out of my ass... But I swear it is true... but I don't know... was it rape?

Edited to say that I don't want a response, please... The lack of response thus far kinda makes me feel at fault. and I don't think I could bear if someone were to call me a liar...

Taking advantage of  a person who is in no state to declare consent (being drugged, drunk etc.) is rape.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 6:02:22 AM   
velvetears


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If sexual gratification is a motivating factor to rape, then why does the person need to do so by force or cohersion? Why not simply find a sex partner to gain sexual release from?  Why not pay a prostitute for it? Implicit in the very nature of what happens during a rape speaks for itself.  By saying the motivation can be simply for sex degrades men in my opinion. 

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 6:31:21 AM   
mistoferin


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velvetears, the key words to the answer is in "motivating factor". It indeed can (at times) be a motivating factor without it being "all about" sex. I personally think that sexual attraction, gratification and release as motivators are rare. They certainly are not required for rape to occur. If they were, two year old babies and 95 year old women would not get raped...but they do.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 6:44:28 AM   
cjenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

If sexual gratification is a motivating factor to rape, then why does the person need to do so by force or cohersion?
Fear of rejection. Or the opportunity presents itself in the guise of a passed out female college freshman.
Why not simply find a sex partner to gain sexual release from?  Why not pay a prostitute for it? Implicit in the very nature of what happens during a rape speaks for itself. 
By saying the motivation can be simply for sex degrades men in my opinion. 
That makes no sense to me, how can more than one motivation for rape degrade the male population? By that logic any crime done by a male is reflective of all males?
 
SEX is indeed a motivation for some rapes. SEX and control are a motivation for rape. Control itself is a motivation for rape.
There is not a simple one-size-fits-all reason for rape, it is often a blend of motivations.
Freshman year I was a 'passed out girl' that was passed around. There was little bruising the next day but I was raped.
Sophmore year I spent visiting a state prison talking to actual live rapists as a way of understanding what happened to me and why 'me'. So again I say that some rapes are sexually motivated.



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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 7:11:48 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

If sexual gratification is a motivating factor to rape, then why does the person need to do so by force or cohersion? Why not simply find a sex partner to gain sexual release from?  Why not pay a prostitute for it? Implicit in the very nature of what happens during a rape speaks for itself.  By saying the motivation can be simply for sex degrades men in my opinion. 

Because rape isn't simply about force or cohersion and at times, there is no force or cohersion.  But rape is NON CONSENSUAL SEX... whether that includes penetration is irrelevant.  It is a sexual act.  Else it would not be called, rape, it is listed as abuse.  You do not pay a prostitute for it because that would be consensual.  Non consent is with a sexual force is rape.  Non consent without violence and sexual force is rape.  Non consent with violence and no sexual force is abuse.
 
I am trying to find the cite that I remember that male rape has a tendancy to be sexually motivated, but I cannot remember the study, but I will post it when I find it.  And I do not disagree that studies have shown that female rape is motivated by the need to control and the power element in a majority of cases.  However, Motivation and end are two completely different parts of rape.
 
I actually find it repugnant that people can deny that woman and men haven't suffered rape because sexual motivation doesnt exist - which is technically what you are claiming.  Not one person can claim that there are no sexually motivated rapes, even with all the studies that have been shown(which - as all studies do - alter depending on orientation, gender and time/years) - the majority for female rape may indicate this, but it isn't set in stone and there is a lower percentage of sexual rape, maybe, but to deny it exists at all is denying the rape of thousands of men, women and children.  If a question starts - 'Can rape be sexually motivated' - the answer is yes.  If any sentance begins with 'Can... '  or 'Does anyone else...' the answer is always a resounding yes.
 
And can we also focus if possible on the fact that men are also raped.  It isn't just a female phenom, as this thread is focusing rape to be (IMO)
 
Peace and Rapture


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 5/4/2007 7:13:49 AM >


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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 7:28:05 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

 I actually find it repugnant that people can deny that woman and men haven't suffered rape because sexual motivation doesnt exist - which is technically what you are claiming. 
 
If that is what you gleaned is the meaning of what i am saying then all i can say is you have soooooooo misunderstood me. 
 
i said my piece and it is what i believe.  Whether you agree with my view or not is really irrelevant.  We simply have different points of view on the subject. 


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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 7:49:15 AM   
darkinshadows


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Whether we agree or not is relevant in the eyes of all who witness a discussion - if there was no relevance, you wouldn't bother responding to make your view known.  It is obviously relevant, that you make me understand that we disagree - else you wouldnt bother posting your view... 
 
But you are correct, we don't agree that the motivation for rape is always 'one true way'.
The motivation for rape is never one 'simple' way.
 
Peace


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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 8:19:00 AM   
Marc2b


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If it is not consensual, it is criminal.

It really is that simple.

I think the incorrect notion that it is not possible to orgasm, or even be aroused, while under duress is the cause of a lot rape victims psychological pain. One of my nieces was raped when she was fourteen and she developed severe emotional problems that resulted in drug and alcohol problems, agoraphobia, and self mutilation (mostly in the form of cutting), and there was even an attempt to hang herself. An excellent therapist was able to help her by uncovering her "dark secret" about the rape. It wasn’t just the feeling of being devalued (that is certainly a major part of a rape victims trauma) but the fact that she orgasmed during the rape. She took this as "proof" that she was worthless and deserved it.

Our bodies, our emotions, and our reasoning are not always in synch. A college professor explained it this way: say you are absolutely heterosexual. Your laying in bed with your eyes closed and someone starts using their hand to stimulate you between the legs. Your penis or your clitoris don’t give a shit whether that hand is attached to a man or a woman. Your arousal is a straight forward biological reaction. In other words: stimulus/response. It is when you open your eyes and see that the other person is the same sex as you that you freak out.

texancutie said:
quote:

Rape fantasies have nothing really to do with a real rape. It's not like most women that have them, want some smelly vagrant who doesn't practice safe sex to do it. With a real rape one does not have a choice. So yes, it is about being taken, and the control, and the roleplay. Which in itself is consensual as well.

That same college professor would agree with you. She contended that the term "rape fantasy" is an oxymoron. A person retains ultimate control of the fantasies in their head and rape involves losing control. She stated that what we call "rape fantasies" would be more accurately termed "carry me off and ravish me you gorgeous hunk of manhood you," fantasies.

As for the whole debate over whether rape is about sex or not: sex is clearly an underlying factor but it is not solely the need to get your rocks off but how you do so that is the major motivation. The typical rapist (there are exceptions to everything) has a severe inferiority complex and in order to feel superior needs to denigrate and demean someone else. Rape is one way to achieve this. Since the average woman is physically weaker than the average man, they make convenient victims. Getting his rocks off is just the side effect. Whether it is a violent attack or a drunk freshman taking advantage of a passed out co-ed, in both cases the rapist is enjoying a sense of superiority. Men get horny all the time but most of us don’t commit rape if the girlfriend is out of town – we whack off instead.

Reading about what happened to others, especially mistoferin, both infuriates and saddens me. I don’t believe in a literal hell but if there is any justice in the afterlife, these foul excrements of humanity should be in for a serious wake-up call. My thoughts and prayers are with the victims. I was the victim of sexual abuse when I was six and I would just like to say that you need to keep reminding yourself that the fault lies with those who victimized you, and not with you.

My niece, thanks to that Godsend of a therapist, has gotten that message. I don’t doubt that she will always carry a sadness around with her but nowadays, on the verge of turning twenty-one, she has found peace, and laughter again. The drugs, alcohol, and cutting have stopped. She has found love with a wonderful young man (the whole family approves of him) and with a wonderful baby boy born last July.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 8:29:09 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddyDeSade
How could educated young ladies of maybe 20-21 in university be so foolish? .


Because they still ARE 20-21 year olds.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 10:05:28 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Viridana

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Alright, I was just paraphrasing.  Whatever floats your boat.  Then you may answer my previous post with the phrase "violence and control, degradation and humiliation" in place of instances of "domination".

If it were only about the sex, the rapist wouldn't have to rape. Then he wouldn't have to use violence or other means, like sedatives, to get what he wants. As soon as the person feels the need or urge to violate that person  he wants to have sex with it becomes about the violence and domination and not about the sex.

I've researched this stuff alot and both been raped, taken care of girls who have been raped as well as interviewed a rapist. I agree with velvettears wholeheartedly on this as I, with all due respect, trust the resarch, publishings and findings of trained professionals that have studied this era over your skeptizism of researches in a clinical setting all together.



You realized you just claimed that some mystic, uncited research supports you over me just shortly after FirmhandKY posted an extensive argument against it..?

I mean, sheesh, you can't answer me logically and the cites are against you, and you still continue with this.

Sex is an animalistic act of procreation.  It being brought about by force, deception, or coercion may not make it as much "sex" in the romantic notions you seem to attach to it, but it's still sex.

Some guys just want to get off and it's more convinient to get that without consent.

Why can't you accept some guys just want to have sex without having to go through the process of gaining consent?

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 10:18:43 AM   
CuriousLord


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Actually, you seem to be in denial, so let me illistrate this very clearly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viridana

If it were only about the sex, the rapist wouldn't have to rape.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Viridana
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mellissande

I guess that kinda sounds like a story I pulled out of my ass... But I swear it is true... but I don't know... was it rape?

Edited to say that I don't want a response, please... The lack of response thus far kinda makes me feel at fault. and I don't think I could bear if someone were to call me a liar...


Taking advantage of  a person who is in no state to declare consent (being drugged, drunk etc.) is rape.


So, answer this.

Guy meets girl at bar.  Guy goes back to girl's house.  Girl passes out while they're snuggled up on the couch, still flirting.  Guy has sex with girl.  Guy leaves.

The guy oblivously wanted sex.  That's the bar hookup scene.  The girl was passed out and didn't provide consent- you just stated that was rape.

Now, the guy rapes the girl.  He wanted sex.
And you're telling me rape is never about sex?

I think rape is about sex pretty damn often.  But you're telling me it never is, so answer this scenerio.  Don't give me crap, and don't default back to "the research that I did- that I'm not going to cite- says I'm right".


Edit:
PS-  I'm sorry if I seem aggressive.  It just annoys me that you're being so illogical.  I don't have anything against you as a person- just frustrated with you at the moment.

I believe you when you say that you've read it somewhere before.  It was this big idea back not too long ago, trying to dehumanize rapists so that the rapes weren't so traumatic.  I'm well aware of the fact that it's still sometimes told to rape victims to help them get over it.

But, please, understand, it's not true.  Sources and logic have been provided.  I'm sorry if this makes rape seem more human to you- if it somehow calls into question your notions of sex and intimacy- but, please, try and look for the truth in all things.

I don't like being mean to you.  I just want you to be honest.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 5/4/2007 10:24:40 AM >

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 10:25:37 AM   
NakedOnMyChain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

It is accurate - read the research.


Cite the research.

I disagree from first hand research.  I find alleged and uncited sources a dubious claim base.


Well i am not going to do the work for you - i too have worked with rape victims as well as written a mini thesis on just this subject about 15 years ago.  There is overwhelming evidence that rape is not an act of sex (sex is the means) it is an act of voilence and control over another person as a way to degrade and humiliate them.


Obviously it is not just about sex.  Especially in cases where the rapist is a psychopath, doing it for the power trip.  However, sex is a factor in many cases.  As with those who are pent up and not getting any from other sources, as well as emotionally unstable, then it is about sex.  This does happen.  To discount any possibility of it is not wise, though I will agree that the majority occurs out of a need for violence, power and degradation.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 10:30:17 AM   
NakedOnMyChain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddyDeSade
How could educated young ladies of maybe 20-21 in university be so foolish? .


Because they still ARE 20-21 year olds.


That was an ignorant thing to say.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 11:10:54 AM   
velvetears


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Dr. A. Nicholas Groth, author of Men Who Rape: The Psychology of the Offender, described four types of deliberate rapists, based on their motivations and behavior patterns. Forensic scientists, criminologists, and law enforcement agencies often use these profiles to analyze rapists, and prevent future rapes.
Since rapes are predominantly perpetrated by men, a male perpetrator is assumed in these profiles:
  • The power-assertive rapist: This is argued to be the most common type of rapist, accounting for about 40 percent of all reported rapes. Wishing to be an alpha male, he tends to value machismo and physical aggression, and often rapes victims that he meets in places like bars, where he may pose as, or be, an authority figure. Power-assertive rapists rarely target specific people for rape and, while not intending to kill their victims, often traumatize and humiliate them.
  • The power-reassurance rapist: Responsible for about 27.5% of reported rapes, this type of rapist has been described by law enforcers as the "gentleman rapist". He is usually:
    • of average intelligence;
    • not physically aggressive;
    • socially-deficient; and
    • unable to develop interpersonal or romantic relationships.


Usually, he will select and stalk a victim before committing the crime. The victim is usually someone whom he knows, eg. a neighbor or work acquaintance. Power-reassurance rapists often force the victim to emulate foreplay, and take "trophies" of the rape; they may even record the event in a personal journal. Power-reassurance rapists tend to be the least violent type of rapists, often fantasizing about consensual sexual relationships with women, rather than violent conquests.
  • Anger-retaliatory rapist: Responsible for about 28% of rapes, this type of rapist is often a substance abuser, with impulsive behavior and anger-related pathologies. He does not target specific victims, and often feels a general animosity toward the gender of his target. The anger-retaliatory rapist's attacks are usually spontaneous and brutal, and while he does not intend to kill the victim, he may beat her or him to death if she or he resists. This rapist usually has below-average intelligence, and is likely to leave more evidence than other types of rapists.
  • The anger-excitation rapist: This type of rapist, considered the most dangerous and elusive, accounts for about 4.5 percent of rapes. The anger-excitation rapist may or may not choose his victims selectively. Often sadistic, this type of rapist frequently murders his victim to prevent her or him from identifying him, or for his own self-gratification. FBI profilists lists the fourth type as "sexually sadistic rapists." These rapists are sexual sadists. Only a small percentage of sexual sadists are rapists.

According to John Douglas, the legendary FBI profilist, rapists tend to fall into four basic categories: "power-reassurance rapist" (driven by feelings of inadequacy), the "exploitive" rapist (impulsive driven and overtly macho), the "anger" rapist (who uses sex to displace his rage), and the "sadistic" rapist, who gets aroused from sexual sadism.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 11:19:35 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Guy meets girl at bar.  Guy goes back to girl's house.  Girl passes out while they're snuggled up on the couch, still flirting.  Guy has sex with girl.  Guy leaves.

The guy oblivously wanted sex.  That's the bar hookup scene.  The girl was passed out and didn't provide consent- you just stated that was rape.

Now, the guy rapes the girl.  He wanted sex.
And you're telling me rape is never about sex?

I think rape is about sex pretty damn often. 


There was sex perpetrated but can you say unequivocally that the motivation in this particular guy was to get sex? That seems illogical to me. He's going to take a chance of going to jail just to get sex?  It seems you are looking at it face value.  i see a guy who has disdain for woman and can only fathom sex with them when they are in a position of no power. 

btw - don't put other people down for their point of view or beliefs. You can find research or even conduct studies to prove any standpoint you want.  i still contend that the research supports rape as violence/control not sex. You obvioulsy believe otherwise.  Leave it at that.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 11:34:07 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

According to John Douglas, the legendary FBI profilist, rapists tend to fall into four basic categories: "power-reassurance rapist" (driven by feelings of inadequacy), the "exploitive" rapist (impulsive driven and overtly macho), the "anger" rapist (who uses sex to displace his rage), and the "sadistic" rapist, who gets aroused from sexual sadism.


I have a couple of friends who have spent their whole careers (an aggregate of some 70+ years) working with sexual deviancy, perversion and crime in a clinic of international reputation and both say that at their stage of their careers, the one thing they know for certain is that people can't be categorized and experts know next to nothing.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 11:38:30 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Guy meets girl at bar.  Guy goes back to girl's house.  Girl passes out while they're snuggled up on the couch, still flirting.  Guy has sex with girl.  Guy leaves.

The guy oblivously wanted sex.  That's the bar hookup scene.  The girl was passed out and didn't provide consent- you just stated that was rape.

Now, the guy rapes the girl.  He wanted sex.
And you're telling me rape is never about sex?

I think rape is about sex pretty damn often. 


There was sex perpetrated but can you say unequivocally that the motivation in this particular guy was to get sex? That seems illogical to me. He's going to take a chance of going to jail just to get sex?  It seems you are looking at it face value.  i see a guy who has disdain for woman and can only fathom sex with them when they are in a position of no power. 


Illogical?  Jail?  What's the rape victim going to do, tell the police she took a man back from the bar with her and he raped her while she was drunk and couldn't remember anything?  Do you have any idea how little of a fraction of a second she'll be disregarded in?

The guy got sex with some passed out girl.  He had no danger to himself.  He got off.  It was about sex, just like it would've been if she was conscious and provided consent.

How much more obvious does it need to be?


quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
btw - don't put other people down for their point of view or beliefs.


I went out of my way to be nice to you.  I even wrote an apology, trying to explain my reason for being so assertive even after making my point and having no such obligation.  I'm being very nice.

If I still hurt your feelings, it's up to you to deal with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
You can find research or even conduct studies to prove any standpoint you want.


Not if you conduct them in a scientifically acceptable manner.

Conduct a study to show me how gravity is actually a repulsive force.  You could bounce a ball on the ground and claim it went up due to gravity, only down initially because you threw it.  So, yes, you could conduct a study showing gravity is repulsive.  But it wouldn't be a scientific study.
This is why I've been blasting your uncited sources and incomplete logic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
i still contend that the research supports rape as violence/control not sex. You obvioulsy believe otherwise.  Leave it at that.


I'm able to prove my point, and I'm free to do so.  Don't ask me to shut up.  It's more than rude of you.

If you don't care to participate in a debate, I would advise you not to post in one.
If you don't care to participate in a logical debate, I would advise you not to post to me.

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RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 11:58:08 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Guy meets girl at bar.  Guy goes back to girl's house.  Girl passes out while they're snuggled up on the couch, still flirting.  Guy has sex with girl.  Guy leaves.

The guy oblivously wanted sex.  That's the bar hookup scene.  The girl was passed out and didn't provide consent- you just stated that was rape.

Now, the guy rapes the girl.  He wanted sex.
And you're telling me rape is never about sex?

I think rape is about sex pretty damn often. 


There was sex perpetrated but can you say unequivocally that the motivation in this particular guy was to get sex? That seems illogical to me. He's going to take a chance of going to jail just to get sex?  It seems you are looking at it face value.  i see a guy who has disdain for woman and can only fathom sex with them when they are in a position of no power. 


Illogical?  Jail?  What's the rape victim going to do, tell the police she took a man back from the bar with her and he raped her while she was drunk and couldn't remember anything?  Do you have any idea how little of a fraction of a second she'll be disregarded in?

OMG!!!!!!!!  Do you know how fast he'd find his ass in jail if he did such a despicable thing!  Many women don't report it because they are ashamed of what happend to them. For you to say this is the height of ARROGANCE!!

The guy got sex with some passed out girl.  He had no danger to himself.  He got off.  It was about sex, just like it would've been if she was conscious and provided consent.

How much more obvious does it need to be?

Obvious to your distorted mind perhaps - i beg to differ it would be to others.  all i have to say is one big loud WOW!!!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
btw - don't put other people down for their point of view or beliefs.


I went out of my way to be nice to you.  I even wrote an apology, trying to explain my reason for being so assertive even after making my point and having no such obligation.  I'm being very nice.

If I still hurt your feelings, it's up to you to deal with it.

You don't have the capacity to hurt my feelings.  And your apology wasn't to me - go back and look if you need to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
You can find research or even conduct studies to prove any standpoint you want.


Not if you conduct them in a scientifically acceptable manner.

Conduct a study to show me how gravity is actually a repulsive force.  You could bounce a ball on the ground and claim it went up due to gravity, only down initially because you threw it.  So, yes, you could conduct a study showing gravity is repulsive.  But it wouldn't be a scientific study.
This is why I've been blasting your uncited sources and incomplete logic.

i have yet to see YOU post any source.

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
i still contend that the research supports rape as violence/control not sex. You obvioulsy believe otherwise.  Leave it at that.


I'm able to prove my point, and I'm free to do so.  Don't ask me to shut up.  It's more than rude of you.

If you don't care to participate in a debate, I would advise you not to post in one.
If you don't care to participate in a logical debate, I would advise you not to post to me.

You think you are so logical and intelligent in your approach and in this last post you have proved what you really are -   Pompous, insulting and arrogant. 


_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 12:05:31 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Rape doesnt just happen to women.  Rape happens to men too.  Rape isn't just a hetrosexual problem.  It occurs by men to men.  And by women to men - and yes it does happen.
 
Velvet - you are saying that not one rape is sexually motivated EVER.  Can you proove this?  Can you get into the minds of every single rapist and know that without a shadow of a doubt?
 
You are making generalisations, then telling people to basically shut up and go away just because they dont agree, and it just doesn't matter anyway - that it is irrelevant.
Rape isn't irrelevant, nor are other peoples views.
 
Even taking your citing into consideration it says without a shadow of a doubt that there are such people as "sadistic" rapist, who gets aroused from sexual sadism.  You just contradicted yourself right there.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Is it rape if she likes it? - 5/4/2007 12:20:52 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
OMG!!!!!!!!  Do you know how fast he'd find his ass in jail if he did such a despicable thing!  Many women don't report it because they are ashamed of what happend to them. For you to say this is the height of ARROGANCE!!
 
Arrogance?  If she went to the police and reported this guy- they'd tell her..
"Look, you were drunk.  How do you know you didn't consent?  Rape cases don't even go forward in 'his word versus her word' cases when there's no evidence- you want me to jail this guy based on the fact that, when drunk, you don't explicity remember providing consent after you took him back from the bar?  You don't even know who he is, his name, or even what he looked like!  There's nothing we can do for you."
 
I can't believe you said I was at the "height of ARROGANCE!!" for pointing out the guy wouldn't go to jail.  Jeeze.

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 100
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