Formation of dominants and submissives (Full Version)

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SimplyMichael -> Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 8:20:21 AM)

First off, if you have to chest thump or proclaim how pure your whatever is, we have a gorean forum for that.  As a favor, if you choose to post in this thread, try your best to be open and genuine as well as a bit vulnerable.  With that said...

In my journey I have often wondered if my desire to dominate is healthy both for me and for my partner/s.  I believe it isn't the act but the motivation that decides if something is or isn't healthy.  So is my dominance simply a mask for insecurity, is it some inability to deal with the chaos of the real world?  Is it perhaps some vain attempt to control someone so that I don't have to confront my issues? 

As some know, I sold my house to go back to school and am living with my mother while I finish up my degree.  My mother is a wicked control freak.  I don't react well to women who try and control me, even if it comes from a place of love and concern.  So I have had to learn and still learn how to play with the role I know of being a control freak but doing so from a more and more healthy place.  I am curious how true this is for others who identify as a dominant, did you have one or more controlling parent?

We often hear that submissives are formed from abusive parents and I think many of us have seen enough examples to know that, while common, certainly isn't universal.  So my question for submissives is how many of you had parents who didn't provide structure, who didn't provide boundaries or whom grew up in chaos and thus crave structure?

I look forward to many thoughtful and challenging answers!



GeekyGirl -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 8:39:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


We often hear that submissives are formed from abusive parents and I think many of us have seen enough examples to know that, while common, certainly isn't universal.  So my question for submissives is how many of you had parents who didn't provide structure, who didn't provide boundaries or whom grew up in chaos and thus crave structure?

I look forward to many thoughtful and challenging answers!


Mine was the opposite. Both my mom and stepfather are police officers and total control freaks. I lived in a VERY structured house and was very disciplined as a child. My mother kept an extremely tight rein and even to this day thinks nothing of giving me orders/ultimatums/etc. She has continually tried to control me my whole life (She even "forbid" me to spend time with my ex husband when we separated and trying to work things out....and I was 20 at the time!)

I think for me I grew up being controlled and now I have no concept of how to take care of myself. I moved away for less than a year and ended up married to a freak, in debt to my eyeballs, plus gained 100lbs. Why? Cause mom wasn't there to say "don't marry him" "don't eat that" "Have you exercised today" "don't buy that, you don't need that."

I promptly moved back home with my mother before my divorce was final and I remain there still...I'm still almost competely incapable of managing my own diet, my own finances, etc. I NEED someone to do those things. I was never taught to do them on my own.



thetammyjo -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 8:42:37 AM)

Even though you ask about submissives at the end, given what you shared, SimplyMichael, and the title of the thread I'll talk about my dominant personality.

It is natural for me, and I suspect that my childhood had a role in that it showed me how not to dominate others -- manipulation, mindgames, attempt to guilt into action were standard operating procedure in my mother's house.

I often think that if I hadn't had that background I'd one of two things: a total bitch or a vanilla who likes to be in charge every now and then.

When I started therapy years ago I worried that my kink desires were a sign I'd soaked up the evil from the people who abused me. I had a great therapist who quickly helped me see it was entirely different.

That isn't to say there aren't doubts from time to time but they are very few now a days and usually they were about specific activities and not about my motivations.

I think it's really common (what a sad thing about this society) to have abuse in one's background. Of course it affects us forever especially if we were young when it started. Only you can figure out how positive your motivation is but I don't think it's bad if there some insecurity there as long as you work on those things in yourself to become a better dominant and human being.



TexasMaam -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 8:46:47 AM)

Michael,

This isn't the response you're asking for from a sub, but I just thought I'd throw out there for your consideration the fact that a dear friend and mentor, an experienced, mature, Male Dom, has also sold his home and moved in with his mother temporarily - her health is failing but her tongue is as wicked as ever!

He's struggling with trying to remain the respectful son while keeping his sanity under her controlling, sarcastic and maliciously watchful eye.

Tough thing for a Male Dominant to do!

Just thought you might like to know you're not alone.

My question is: how many male dominants are out there because they grew up with controlling, abusive, drill sergant mothers? 

; )

TM



MsKatHouston -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 8:49:10 AM)

I think, as with anything, you are going to get a variety of various answers to this question, some will have had controlling parents some not, some will be dom, some will be sub.  I tend to think there is a bit of both the nurture and nature in this.  I believe, regardless of how I was brought up, I would have eventually found this lifestyle and been dominant.  I also think my path to here was influenced a lot on how I was brought up.  I had a lot of structure growing up.  Discipline and organization were priorities in my life as was striving for success.  Anything less than an A was substandard, I had strict curfews, etc.  That being said, I also was in a very Leave it to Beaver household.  Both parents to this day never divorced, little fighting in the house, zero abuse, family vacations and all that jazz. 

I think the support I always received from my parents gave me the confidence to do what I felt was me naturally.  So I think I naturally had dominant inclinations and my nurturing allowed me to express those with confidence.  I think a lot of the structure and discipline I was brought up with did not necessarily mold whether or not I was sub or dom but instead helped me to refine my particular method of putting that into practice, whichever I so chose.  I was comfortable with structure and discipline and felt when things were all in place and organized that my life went smoother and easier.

So, I strive to get that in my life today.  That often dictates what type of submissive does well for me and what type of training I partake in.  It also dictates how I want my home run and how I expect things to be done. 



mstrjx -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 8:51:18 AM)

When I was a kid, I finally realized that my mother fairly well ran the show, except for the fact that she didn't work (to raise me), and that my father was more or less 'invisible'.  He was always there, you just wouldn't know it because of the darkness of the shadow my mother cast.

Due to an external 'force', they took to drinking, which magnified everything.  In time, I came to realize that I resented my mother.  Except 'resent' is only a sliver of my true feelings.  The relationship I had with her was shaky at best for a good long time.  For instance, her 'control' was so hard-and-fast, that when I graduated from college and ended up settling for a job near where they lived, I wasn't 'permitted' to move out.  I had to continue to live there until I could afford a home.  I could easily get an apartment, but that wasn't good enough.  So my torment continued for another 3 years.  Finally I broke through of all that.  I was 25 when I finally moved out.

My interest in bondage (my entry-point into WIITWD) started as a child, 5 or so.  I didn't know or understand anything about 'control-type' romantic relationships until I was 30.  I would maintain that my controlling mother really had nothing to do with my attraction to the Lifestyle.  I knew and liked bondage, I went to a Lifestyle 'event', where I got to see different people enacting different combinations of 'what we do', and it went from there.  That I've been dominant all this time has more to say about who my partners have been, rather than a compulsion to overcome my childhood or overcompensate for my past.  I identify as 'kinky' before any of the other traditional roles or personas of 'what we do/who we are'.

But that's just me.  (Vulnerable enough for you?)

Jeff



SimplyMichael -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 8:52:03 AM)

I asked the question of both sides of the coin and heck if switches have something insightful to add, pile on!

TexasMaam, thanks for that.  It IS hard but it has also been a VERY interesting mirror on myself and my issues seeing them sort of displayed on a very loud and hard to ignore figure in my life.  I love my mom but I can do so AND recognize her faults.  She is also responsible for many of my best qualities as well.



mistoferin -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 8:56:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
So my question for submissives is how many of you had parents who didn't provide structure, who didn't provide boundaries or whom grew up in chaos and thus crave structure?


I grew up in a wonderfully structured home where there were established rules and guidelines, strong values and morals were instilled. There was plenty of love, praise, guidance and nurturing. There was also responsibility, discipline and accountability.



unsung -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 9:05:38 AM)

This is a seriously difficult question to answer SimplyMichael, as my childhood was not cut from the norm in tradition or culture.  I can not say that my craving to be submissive is drawn from this timeframe in my life.

My last longterm vanilla was he was always in control, and his control brought comfort and peace.  I trusted him with my life, and he certainly took good care of me until trust was broken or my excuse to see that the relationship failed.  What was extrodinary about this is that there was a realization that I am task orientated; I can be given a specific undertaking and due to how maticulous I am will complete it as fully and accurately as capable and even push myself to deliver more that required.  On another note though, I was sexually permiscuous when younger, what can I say I enjoy sex and enjoy the exploration; and I have a wildly active imagination.  I don't have the direct courage to just step up and state 'hey I want to be tired to the fence and used' though.  I desire to be led into my inhibitions and freed from many of them.

I was never abused as a child, my early prominent years I was loved and cared for, my father navy and militant but not present in my teen years.  Mom is dominant and a visionary, she never attempted to direct my life but allowed me to make my own screw ups, which where many.  Perhaps in some subconscious level, the lack of actual guidance is having a degree of influence on my present choice this I would not deny but I would not hold her hostage to it either.  I seek a structure SimplyMichael, but not a craving for it; I want to know the truth always and where I stand and where my partner stands.  And I think I am sure enough to say that my experiences in vanilla relationships have draw this aspect to the surface more than anything else.

However, I am now relunctant to call myself or categorize myself as a submissive or bottom or whatever.  I have some needs to require a relationship to work for me, I have personality that flourishes when those needs are met and for the life of me that part of my personality can not exist without the inclusion of them.



BossyShoeBitch -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 9:09:22 AM)

 I'm a switch.  I remember having these tendencies as far back as 6 or 7 years old.   I would  be playing  Barbies with my sister and ask her to have her doll tell my doll it was a worthless piece of shit (or something along those lines.)
I also insisted on giving my best friend a bath and spanking her..  I taught her how to masturbate.
As the youngest of 5 children in an alcoholic household, I couldn't really tell you if it was fear of my siblings or my mother, or overcompensation by my father.  Good ole' nature v nuture... I believe it's a bit of both.



HutchGarahl -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 9:12:22 AM)

While I do believe my dominance came natural to me, I will say as a kid growing up..I lived in a very structured home. Mom was extremely controlling, instilled discipline harshly and ran a very intense routine daily. Chores had to be done a certain way and at certain times, meals set at certain times and if we didn't eat when meals were cooked, we didn't eat till the next meal. No snacking in between.  School was a top priority. All though I usually had bad grades, she worked with me daily to teach what the teachers didn't seem to be able to. Spent at least an hour every evening doing school work at home wether I had homework or not. Weren't allowed out after 8pm and in bed by 9pm.

In as much as mom ran a controlling home, I was also left with abusive sitters. Sexually and mentally. Mom finally found out what was happening one day when she unexpetantly came home a few days early from a comic convention and found us kids locked in a closet. If it wasn't for my sister, mom would have shot the sitter. Instead she had her arrested.

After leaving home at 15, I went into a marriage with whome I thought to be a slave...till one night I allowed him to experience his desires of being a dom. Worst mistake I ever made. I spent the next 3 1/2 years being pumped full of drugs, and getting beat for anything he took a mind to.

So, I guess you could say I got it from both ends of the stick. Here I am now at 42, mom still is a controlling person. But she has finally learned i'm not gonna listen to her. :P

Mom wasn't cruel...but as a kid, I often thought she was. Now many years later and having my own kids, I realize her being so hard on us was a good thing and she did it out of love.



NControlofU -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 9:15:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I am curious how true this is for others who identify as a dominant, did you have one or more controlling parent?


I didn't have controlling parents.  I had a very good relationship with both of them, with the occasional father/son arguments about who's way was the right way when we did things together, but nothing that ever went to any extremes and was soon gotten over.

I, along with my 24/7 slave and child, recently moved in with my mother.  She is 75 and terminally ill and alone.  It's difficult seeing her so sick.  It's also difficult living with her, not because she is controlling, but because I like being free to do what I want and I haven't been able to for the past few months because I have to be here to take care of her.  Before moving in with her, I was used to being able to do most anything I enjoy with my slave almost anytime I felt like it.  I really don't like not being able to.

I have always liked things done my way.  I was in restaurant management for many years, starting at an early age, and I gave the orders and got things done to my satisfaction.  That's how I like to live my life, especially at home.  I'm not in the restaurant business any more - the hours suck - and I'm not the boss at work any more, but I am the boss of my personal life and at home.  I won't live any other way.  I choose to have people in my personal life who I enjoy being with and who won't give me a hard time about anything.  When I'm not at work, I want to live life my way and not have to deal with anyone who is going to challenge me about how I live.  I choose submissives, who enjoy the same types of activities that I enjoy, to spend my personal time with because that makes it pleasurable for both of us.

I have always had a dominant personality.  Nothing in my childhood, that I know of, caused it.  It's just always been who I am.



TheHeretic -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 9:16:15 AM)

       Lots of chaos in the early years, lots of imperfect people telling me their set of values (or current set) was the only right one.  I had to form my own.  Is it any surprise I call myself Heretic, or that I'm a Switch?

    



sweetlady41only -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 9:17:11 AM)

i grew up in what appeared to outsiders to be a "Leave it to Beaver" household, too...lots of structure, responsibility, morals, love, but strict, sexually repressed,  and demanding in terms of work/performance, too.  Corporal punishment, yes...so i think i grew up equating that with love on some level. 

my independent streak, which i believe is at least partially genetic, is a mile wide.  i am a completely responsible, functioning adult, single parent.  i hold two degrees that i paid for almost all alone, hold a professional job, and do not NEED someone to control me to function in society. 

But my inclination to serve in a slavelike way goes back to childhood.  i remember roleplaying that as we played "dress up" pre-puberty.  The idea that that could be linked to sexuality didn't come to my conscious understanding until my 20s, and i wasn't able to own those feelings consciously until my late 30s.

i wonder a lot, too, whether consensual slavery is actually healthy since to me it represents complete lack of  the boundaries society says we need to be healthy individuals.  As a slave i surrender privacy, independence, control...and my ego fights it sometimes and sends me into an emotional tailspin with messages like "you can't do this" and "this is pathetic."... But then i look inside and feel so slave, and if that is indeed my soul, then shouldn't i be able to find fulfillment in that without feeling bad about myself? 

i came of age in the era of feminism, and i have held jobs traditionally held by males; i've managed and been in charge professionally and certainly in my home.  As that strong woman, though, if i choose to lay that aside and surrender all to the Master i love and worship, i want to believe that that is ok...that it's as healthy a way to go about this as possible.

i don't know if this is what You wanted...but i hope it helps.

sweet 



Eruditegirl -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 9:18:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

First off, if you have to chest thump or proclaim how pure your whatever is, we have a gorean forum for that.  As a favor, if you choose to post in this thread, try your best to be open and genuine as well as a bit vulnerable.  With that said...

In my journey I have often wondered if my desire to dominate is healthy both for me and for my partner/s.  I believe it isn't the act but the motivation that decides if something is or isn't healthy.  So is my dominance simply a mask for insecurity, is it some inability to deal with the chaos of the real world?  Is it perhaps some vain attempt to control someone so that I don't have to confront my issues? 

As some know, I sold my house to go back to school and am living with my mother while I finish up my degree.  My mother is a wicked control freak.  I don't react well to women who try and control me, even if it comes from a place of love and concern.  So I have had to learn and still learn how to play with the role I know of being a control freak but doing so from a more and more healthy place.  I am curious how true this is for others who identify as a dominant, did you have one or more controlling parent?

We often hear that submissives are formed from abusive parents and I think many of us have seen enough examples to know that, while common, certainly isn't universal.  So my question for submissives is how many of you had parents who didn't provide structure, who didn't provide boundaries or whom grew up in chaos and thus crave structure?

I look forward to many thoughtful and challenging answers!


My mother was a high school senoir when she became pregnant with me....so she was young...immature but with good intentions....my childhood was quite unique...vivid memories of my Uncles band playing at Woodstock wannabes...making daisy chains...and everyone in the peace and love fog..it just followed that structure was not part of my childhood...nor stabilty...
However I  was very fortunate to have  a strong influence from my Grandparents...quite the typical Ward and June Cleaver....the friday night bridge club..potluck dinners...OMG...Grandma even wore the little pink apron...
my submissvness/who I am...may be influenced by my childhood....but it's also who I am deep inside....do I crave it...no....do I seek out my unmeet needs from my childhood...yes...



Ericus1 -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 9:32:52 AM)

Forme , i think my submissive nature really developed when i got out of the army.  I spent several years in special forces.  I was team leader and 4 members died over the years, because of my orders.  In my job i always have to be dominate as well.  I just don't want to have to be in control of everything.

But my true hearst desire is to see the woman i am with happy.  Whatever it takes, i don't really care.  She just needs to be happy and well taken care of.  I have found that obeying and serving just kinda come naturally in doing that.  I take great pride in serving and  obeying well.  The army is REALLY big on the idea of obeying orders.  [:)]   So my submission just developed naturally. 

ericus



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 9:37:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I am curious how true this is for others who identify as a dominant, did you have one or more controlling parent?

Nope.

I am a control freak- but it has nothing to do with being dominant or submissive for me.  It's a different deep layer of my make-up dealing with insecurities, trust and feeling out of control.

quote:

 So my question for submissives is how many of you had parents who didn't provide structure, who didn't provide boundaries or whom grew up in chaos and thus crave structure?

Hmm I got love and some structure.  I don't really crave it in my personal intimate relationships- as I've often said I prefer to just let things flow where they will.

I do prefer strict manners and proper etiquette in social situations however because I'm very shy and unempathetic and they help me keep others in their boundaries and feel more comfortable.  But again, it's not a Ds thing, it's just a me thing.



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 9:41:18 AM)

My mother was very directly controling when I was a child/teenager. The "Fear of Mother's Wrath" was a HUGE motivator for proper behavior. My father was passive-aggressive in his controlling, which only made me rebel. While he'd hurt me with the things he said, it called forth a "fuck you", if only in my head.

I was also sexually molested as I grew up (not by my parents!). Because I had a fear of people being angry with me (in part due to mom) and because I craved outward approval (in part due to dad), I feel that I was vulnerable to this because I simply wanted attention. Most of it felt good and I enjoyed it. So, I don't consider most of it as abuse; I was willing. I do consider it as molestation because I was certainly underage.

With all that, I have a dominant personality. I simply like things to be my own way. Because I don't see that having things my way is harmful to those who agree to my way, I don't have a problem with it. I also work to look at my issues and don't worry about if my dominance comes from them or not. I understand that the way I deal with the world around me is done through filters that are both inherent and learned. I have compassion for myself. Like you, the intent behind what I do and who I am isn't deliberately negative, so I feel pretty good about myself.

I'm betting, Michael, that even if you are working on those things you mentioned, you'll still find that you have a dominant personality in the end. Wanting things your way is perfectly valid. If you can find someone who agrees to allow you to have your own way and this doesn't harm others, go with it.

Master Fire



thornhappy -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 10:14:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
So my question for submissives is how many of you had parents who didn't provide structure, who didn't provide boundaries or whom grew up in chaos and thus crave structure?


I grew up in a wonderfully structured home where there were established rules and guidelines, strong values and morals were instilled. There was plenty of love, praise, guidance and nurturing. There was also responsibility, discipline and accountability.

Mine was similar, although by the time I was 17 or so, I couldn't wait to get out of the house.  I don't fly off the rails if there are no external constraints, and generate my own structure.

thornhappy



tricia -> RE: Formation of dominants and submissives (5/6/2007 10:20:34 AM)

I grew up in a house that a black cloud hung over always.  You knew something wasn’t right but you could never quite put your finger on it.
 
My mom was a peacemaker.  She never asked to see report cards out of fear of what they might say, she kept anything we did wrong between us as not to cause unrest.  She was a stay at home mom.  Our rooms were always clean.  Dinner was always on the table at the same time.  We had no chores and little, if any, responsibilities.  My step father was physically abusive to my mom but he never disciplined me or struck me or even raised his voice at me.
 
I spent most of my childhood locked away in my room – by choice.  Often reading or writing or thinking.  I often say a victim of my own emotions and thoughts.  In those years I convinced myself that the whole worlds happiness was on my shoulders – but I’m not sure why.  
 
Just to add – my father had little or no time for me.  He always believed himself to be superior to my sisters and me and never thought twice about telling us what an embarrassment we were to him.
 
Not sure if this has anything to do with my being submissive but I do know I’ve always craved ‘black and white’.  I don’t do well with many shades of grey.



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