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Aswad -> RE: your master wants another (5/8/2007 7:09:36 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phoenixinchains
if you could make someone bi, couldn't you make them poly?
Perhaps. I haven't read any studies to that effect, or talked to any mental health professionals that have tried.
If there is even the smallest spark of something in a person, the right techniques can fan it into a flame, so a person that "has" the poly nature, just to a very slight degree, can probably be made fully poly with enough effort. Similarly, most people have some level of bi inclination in them, which can be turned into full bisexuality with enough effort; if desired, the original sexuality can then be stripped via aversive conditioning and so forth. Many people who don't have any spark of bi in them can still be made "reasonably" bi, although with poorer results, by building on their capacity for positive relations with the gender one wishes to add attraction to, but this is more effort than it's usually worth.
Sexuality is a lot simpler to deal with than emotional attraction. One can progressively desensitize any aversion at first, which for me would be enough, as I don't particularly care whether my slave is enjoying the sexual activity, as long as s/he is putting every effort into carrying it out to the best of his/her ability. For those who want them to enjoy it, one can condition arousal and pleasure from it progressively as well. Both parts of the process take time and effort, though.
This is also why I think turning a monogamous person into a poly person would be a hard task, even if they are willing. Quite simply, making them suitable for poly can be done by behavioural conditioning and so forth, but making them actually love several people if they don't "have" the wiring for that is something I wouldn't have the first clue how to go about. If I needed to, for some reason, I'm sure a way could be found, as a healthy mind is nearly infinitely malleable, but it would be an extensive and time-consuming process. There aren't many scenarios I can envision where it wouldn't be a much better option for all parties to just say "this isn't working", split up, and look for someone else instead.
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i still stand by my origanal statement, but now, Aswad, i'm curious on the theory,,,
I'm afraid I have the memory of a goldfish, so I can't recall your original statement, and right now I'm too lazy to browse back for it. I'd be happy to explain any theory I understand, however.
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for me, being bi means i don't see gender as a limit to whom i might care for, or be attracted to sexually. both are wonderful.
I distinguish between care, romantic attraction and sexual attraction, all of which are usually globbed together as "bi", because most people who identify as "bi" have all of them, although this isn't true for everyone.
I could care for a male sub/slave, if I had one, no problem.
I could also engage in, and desire, sexual relation with a male, although I'm not inclined to do so for religious reasons (basically, I haven't had the time to figure out whether the biblical prohibition against male-male intercourse should be interpreted literally, as in just applying to intercourse; figuratively, as in applying to all sexual relations; or simply as another element of the Jewish lifestyle being defined in terms of opposition to the cultures around them at the time, and thus disregardable).
I have experienced sexual attraction to other men, as well as having found a single man physically attractive.
I have never experienced any kind of romantic attraction to a male, however.
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as for poly, i feel my heart has volume enough to take another into my life.
I am capable of feeling romantic love for more than one person, although that's not what I'm looking for if I'm to take on another slave in our home. However, I would not embrace the budding love while knowing it could hurt the fully blossomed love for my neph, and I am able to exert a lot of control over my emotions when necessary. Hence, a poly relationship wouldn't work for us right now, and we're "in too deep" for it to be likely to work out in the future, either.
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in a way, it seems the commonality is that both entail less retrictions apon tradition (one guy/ one girl) relationships, or restricting what a person might truely disire, even if the ideal situation never presents itself.
The difference is as important as the commonality.
Poly, in the sense that I use the word, is about loving more than one person, while bi is about having more candidates.
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how did you come apon the theory presented above? just wondering- phoenix
The theory I presented has been synthesized from my own experiences, along with those of others, as well as what I know about how the human mind works, how it can be affected, and what I've read of mental health research and talked to mental health professionals about.
Basically, reconditioning of orientation is doable, albeit highly politically incorrect. Most who are able to perform it do not advertise the fact, for the simple reason that there would be a witch-hunt if it were known that they offered it. I know at least one instance of a psychiatrist losing his licence as a result of making the statement that sexual orientation can be changed, despite not having said (or probably even meant to imply) that alternate sexual orientations are invalid. I consider all sexual and romantic orientations, and all combinations of such, to be valid. I also think it's unfortunate when someone decides to undergo such reconditioning for any other reason than to expand their options, and particularly unfortunate when they do it to conform. I do, however, consider it to be doable, and am open to the idea that it may be the lesser of evils in some situations where the present situation causes significant distress for the patient in question, just as I think it may sometimes (but not usually) be the lesser of evils to prescribe modafinil to a person in a situation where they have to function under sleep deprivation, even if that isn't proper use of the medication.
For me, however, I would never recondition anyone's orientation, even with their consent. I don't have the professional skills required to do this in a safe manner with satisfactory results. If I wanted someone to have sex with a being or class of beings they don't want, or don't like, having sex with, and I had their consent, I would desensitize them to that kind of sexual activity until they were indifferent to it, and then proceed to teach them proficiency at it, as well as any acting skills I might want them to acquire that they didn't have. If I considered it desireable for them to achieve orgasm from such activity, and they weren't able to do so while indifferent to it (whether due to lack of stimulation or lack of arousal), I would work on conditioned arousal and the same stuff you use for cum-on-command. If it was for a single occasion, rather than something to be repeated, forced sex might be a viable alternative, depending on the dynamic of the relationship in question and the terms of consent.
As for the bit about submission... Most, if not all, people have some ability to submit to others in certain circumstances, although they may not have a submissive nature per se. In such a case, you could build on this ability if they are willing. In the cases where this ability is absent in a healthy individual, I think (although I'm not sure) there may be drugs and/or psychosurgical procedures that could diminish or extinguish the dominant traits that prevent the person from submitting; this depends on how much of it is biology, and how the nature/nurture balance is struck in that person. Absent these options, or in an unwilling subject, a person may be rendered compliant through the use of drugs, or through extensive conditioning. There are also phenomena that indicate it may be possible to cultivate genuine submission in an unwilling subject (which you can read up on elsewhere), and this would also indicate that a willing subject could probably go further and would probably require less effort. That said, I don't think any of these approaches would be healthy for the person involved, particularly with regards to their mental health, and I doubt the results would be satisfactory, unless you're just looking for compliance. Also, I don't think the person would be likely to achieve happiness in such a situation. Needless to say, doing something like this with someone without their prior informed consent is illegal and unethical.
With regard to poly, I explained that above. I haven't seen anything to indicate it can be done to any satisfactory degree if the person in question doesn't have the slightest spark of poly in them. However, I don't see a problem in making someone capable of living in a poly environment, if they're willing to undergo the relevant changes to their mind, and such a person could be made to function in such an environment, either with a monogamous attachment to one of the people, or without any specific attachment (as in non-romantic voluntary slavery). Essentially you're just removing sources of friction, and teaching them to tolerate the activities of the people they're not attached to; you're not causing them to love more than one person. Someone who does have the spark, can probably be brought to the point where they are quite capable of loving more than one person, though.
Note that I don't go messing with people's heads in this way without prior informed consent, that results vary, that all the bets are off when there are pathologies involved, and that I'd certainly brush up on things with a professional before attempting to do these things, and that I'm in no way advocating these kinds of practices for general consumption.
I've done minor lasting mind alterations in others in the past, as well as a few major short-term alterations, have treated certain mental illnesses, and aided in the treatment of others, as well as doing a heck of a lot of research, and I still don't consider myself qualified to guarantee safety and satisfactory results. I thus cannot reccomend it for anyone without significantly more experience than me, except under the supervision of a kink-positive professional with the required skillset.
I do, however, have a fair idea of what can and cannot be done by someone with the right skills and the right relation to the person in question.
Finally, I'll point out that a lot of these things take years of dedicated work. You can probably desensitize someone to sexual contact with a gender they don't have an attraction to with anywhere from a few days to a few months, which is the orientation related procedure that the most people would find useful, but actually changing a person's wiring takes a lot more time, especially if you're supposed to be careful about their mental health (safe and sane are both on the line, here).
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