RE: your master wants another

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Smythe -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 3:30:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy So, i would say, based on the change that i have gone through, that it is absolutely possible to be "conditioned" or, to become a bisexual after having always been a heterosexual. Thanks for sharing. I'd be inclined to agree that your case is a good example of one way it can work with good results. Perhaps you could elaborate on how your feelings about it progressed throughout the change? If I'm asking a too personal question, just kick me and say 'no'. [:D] This might be making a fine distinction, however I have to say that anyone can pretty much make anyone do anything with the right combination of conditioning, manipulation and/or pressure. However, accepting another into the household doesn't make anyone poly, nor does a female sleeping with another female make her a lesbian or even bi. There is a difference between acts and states of being. I am talking about acts that are required by another person. Smythe

Aswad -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 3:42:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub Personally I cannot wrap my mind around a poly relationship or introducing another into the dynamic , for me personally..To my mindset I see it as a way of saying.."you are not enough for me, I need another to make me fully happy"..When I see Dominants wanting to intro others, it frightens me into thinking..If such would be ordered of me, could I do it?..no....I would simply and sadly walk away. I cannot and will not be thought of as less than enough for "him".That to me is a sure way to destroy my sense of self or worth...Tempting For me, it's never been about one person being, or not being, enough. Sure, some people can complement each other, in the sense that another person can e.g. provide an outlet for something someone isn't comfortable with. But that's what "open relationships" are for, IMO, not a "poly" thing. For me, poly simply means having the capacity to extend love to several individuals at the same time, without diminishing the love for any one individual. Obviously, for that to work, the individuals have to be sufficiently compatible that no big (and unresolvable) conflicts arise from the relationship between them, that people have to work together to resolve any issues that come up, and that jealousy can't work. If not, you'll just end up with your heart torn in two directions. Again, simply put, the individuals have to be sufficiently compatible that your heart is pulled in only one direction, rather than in two different directions. Just my 2 cents. YMMV. Usual disclaimers apply. Etc...

Aswad -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 3:47:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy i guess i am "rare", then, since i am "only" a slave to my Master. i came to Him as a slave and with full knowledge & acceptance that i would always be His slave, even if/when He might have a girlfriend or wife or another slave(s), at some point, which hasn't happened yet. Rare does not imply nonexistant. [:D] I'm happy for you in this regard, and I hope me and neph can find someone of a similar persuasion at some point in time. It would be good for her to have someone to share the load with, and someone to talk to on an equal footing who understands from a similar perspective. quote: Master & i have never had any type of romantic/love relationship and that makes things much less complicated for U/us. Maybe W/we have something "rare", but it works for U/us. As I've pointed out before, me and neph started out vanilla, so things are a bit more complicated for us in that regard. But, yes, I can quite "get" the difference between the affection one has for someone who is "just" a slave, and someone who is also a romantic partner. Again, I'm glad it works for you, and hope to eventually find something that works for us as well. [:D]

Aswad -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 3:49:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy Well, it's a little bit more personal than i care to discuss in this format. You are welcome to contact me through my email, if you are really interested in knowing how my feelings progressed from being not interested and even turned-off by the idea of having sex with another woman to enjoying it and longing for it. i will be happy to give you a full answer privately. Thank you. I'll do that. It would be interesting feedback for me. I quite understand that it can be too personal. Just thought I'd also add a quote I forgot in my original reply to you, one that has a bearing on this topic, like many others in BDSM. I can't recall who said it first, but there is a saying that "today's hard limit is tomorrow's fetish".

waterdance -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 6:06:17 AM)
Some very interesting posts and points have been made here. Master and i have also spoken about having another to serve Him and me. It's been extremely hard to find a female who is unattached and wants to join in some play and maybe something more serious down the road. W/we have been on this search for almost 2 years and no one has stepped up to the plate yet. Like some one wrote in here earlier.. you get a few emails and then all of the sudden they just go poof with no reason no good byes or anything. i sometimes think i am having pipe dreams that this could ever happen to U/us. O/others have seem so so lucky in this area. i'm thinking W/we are not approaching this right. Great tropic thought and good food for thought. Respectfully, waterdance

BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 6:16:46 AM)
Like a thief in the night they vanish don't they girl..If I want to add a fifth or tenth,it would be my choice to do so,of course I would discuss this with my beatiful wife but the ultimate decision would be mine..I say have as many as you can afford and educate...after all that is given is returned 10 fold..as always just the views of this ol' master.

slavegirljoy -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 8:45:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smythe quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy So, i would say, based on the change that i have gone through, that it is absolutely possible to be "conditioned" or, to become a bisexual after having always been a heterosexual. Thanks for sharing. I'd be inclined to agree that your case is a good example of one way it can work with good results. Perhaps you could elaborate on how your feelings about it progressed throughout the change? If I'm asking a too personal question, just kick me and say 'no'. [:D] This might be making a fine distinction, however I have to say that anyone can pretty much make anyone do anything with the right combination of conditioning, manipulation and/or pressure. However, accepting another into the household doesn't make anyone poly, nor does a female sleeping with another female make her a lesbian or even bi. There is a difference between acts and states of being. I am talking about acts that are required by another person. Smythe Exactly. As i said, i went from simply fulfilling the duties that were required of me to perform bisexual acts for my Doms' desires to actually enjoying, wanting, and even longing for sexual relations with other women for my own desires. i went from being a very straight sub, who would engage in bisexuality for my Dom's pleasure to being an unquestionably bisexual slave, desiring other women for my own pleasure, as well as the pleasure of my Master and the other woman. In fact, if i wasn't already owned by my Master or, if at some point, i was no longer owned by Him, i can easily see myself very happily serving a Mistress, while still wanting sexual relations with a man, also. That is a HUGE shift in this slave's mindset from what it had always been, up until fairly recently in my life. And, it really has been a shift in my mindset, rather than anything physical changing in me. i look at women differently now and i feel very different toward women now. It took being with the right Master to help me to make this change in my attitude toward loving a woman and being sexual with a woman. slave joy Owned property of Master David

MsOpal -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 9:41:36 AM)
Hi, Our case might be a bit unusual as I have never understood the societial restraints put on humans in regards to relationships. I was 9 years old when I asked my mom (very "Father Knows Best household, typical 1950's) why we had to only love one person and marry them forever. I told her I planned to love anyone and everyone I wanted to and to have babies any time I wanted to and not to force a man to stay with me based on a piece of paper. You can imagine her reaction! Anyway - I have always felt like society put these restrictions on who and how we could love and it was neither natural or fair (this is just my opinion, my ideas, for my life). But Argent never agreed and I loved him, so I packed those feelings away for many many years. Then, like magic, he met a lady on line and over a very short time he began to have real feelings for her. He had not been seeking another relationship, she was just on an emial group he was on and they began to have private emails. When he realized he was actually feeling something for her, he had to come and tell me about it and expected me to scream and throw a fit over it and instead I was like wow cool, tell me about her! I got to know her as well via emails and chats and long long phone calls and we asked her if she wanted to come meet us with the idea of her living with us. The plane tickets were purchased and plans were made, and her family discovered the real basis for the "friendship" - Ds bdsm poly and they told her they would never speak to her if she continued to talk to us. Well, she choose them and to this day, 2 years past now, it still hurts to think about how we felt about her. We continue to remain open to someone finding us and thinking that we can be an important part of their life. We have been together over 27 years and 24 7 for 10 now and we have had our ups and downs and our hard times. We have dealt with jealousy and insecurity and all sorts of emotional fears. I know now, that no matter how much I believed in poly when I was younger, that I could not have handled it in reality until this time in my life. I have reached a point where I am secure in my life, in my relationship, and I do feel like I am ready to face to inhearant problems and roadblocks to a happy and fulfilling poly relatinship. I want to have a young lady here to share things with - yep, even Argent. I want to cuddle with her and help her learn things that I know and I want to learn from her. I have learned what jealousy really is to me and how to recognize the danger signals and how to get it out in the open and get it dealt with. Total openess and honesty are the only way to make any good relationship work and we hope the lessons we have learned and the relationship skills we ahve developed over the past 27 years will help us when applied to a poly relationship - if all that makes sense. MsOpal

slavegirljoy -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 10:35:54 AM)
MsOpal, What you said makes sense to me and it was really sweet and touching. It's too bad that things didn't work out for you before. But, i do believe that things usually happen (or not) for a reason and when things happen sort of naturally, almost accidentally even, rather than planned, they tend to have a way of working out well. That's how i look at it, any way. It would be nice if everything happened on our schedule, but i know that isn't how things work and i have to be patient and just keep the door open for the right one to join my Master & me. It is really great that the two of you have such a good relationship and i really hope that the right sub comes along for you, at some point, so that she can have the opportunity to share in the warmth & love that you seem to have and that you will be able to have what you wish for. It sounds really beautiful to me. slave joy Owned property of Master David

Smythe -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 11:26:25 AM)
Thanks, Ms. Opal. It's amazing really, how some things become clearer and how we can become stronger and more inclusive as we get older. It sounds like you have a great marriage; good luck with finding another to share it with. Smythe

Argentopal -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 11:32:08 AM)
~ slave joy and Smythe - thank you so much for the kind words. I feel incredibly fortunate sometimes. Things are not perfect and never have been, but those imperfections have taught us how to stand up to life's problems - whether huge storms or small unseen pitfalls. I do remain optimistic and hopeful. MsOpal

littleone35 -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 6:37:49 PM)
Aswad you are assuming i never tired this i di i was a little younger and curious what the big deal was about. So i tried it with a frind i was totallu comfortable nothing big but the little we did i totally hated so i have the experience to back up my statment. I also stand by my statment. But thanks for the response. Matt's littleone

Aswad -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 8:21:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smythe This might be making a fine distinction, however I have to say that anyone can pretty much make anyone do anything with the right combination of conditioning, manipulation and/or pressure. However, accepting another into the household doesn't make anyone poly, nor does a female sleeping with another female make her a lesbian or even bi. It is not making a fine distinction; the distinction is huge, below the surface, and one of the distinctions I tried to make in my post. Although I tried to point out that manipulation and/or pressure aren't ethically valid tactics, and that they aren't likely to give the desired results either. Taking another person into the household doesn't, as you said, make anyone poly. It does, however, not mean you can't make it work. Just that it won't be poly, it'll be more like something in between poly and a collective. Of course, I could be off on the terms here, but I got the impression that poly by itself means that a person is capable of loving more than one person at the same time, while what happens when several poly people get together is that you get a poly household, or what is more formally (and precisely) known as an endogamous group. Adding people who aren't poly will not affect whether the household is poly, it'll just add another person to the household, who may or may not have a relationship with a poly person in the household, who may or may not have a relationship with one or more other people in the household, who may or may not be poly themselves. [:D] Also, a female sleeping with one or more other females doesn't make her lesbian or bi. But enjoying it does. And that, I think was the point of the post in question: that slavegirljoy started out as a heterosexual woman having sex with other women because her Master ordered her to do so, but that she ended up being bisexual from these experiences. I guess a simple question might resolve the matter: would she, if released by her Master, be looking for relationships with either gender, or still looking for a relationship with a male? quote: There is a difference between acts and states of being. I am talking about acts that are required by another person. Acts that are required by another person don't intrinsically change anything. Just because I indulge my sadism on neph, that doesn't make her a masochist (which she isn't), it just means she's submitting to me. If one is willing to change, however, it is possible for another person to guide one through that change; in this regard, different people need different approaches to succeed. This can result in a different state of being, if there was any latent spark of such a state of being in the person, or it can result in simply being comfortable and happy with something, if it is done right, or it can result in lots of mental health issues, if it's done wrong. The latter being why I suggested enlisting the aid of a professional if one wants something like that to happen. For me, I wouldn't see the effort of changing someone's state of being as being worth the payoff, so I would simply get them to the point where the acts no longer cause mental discomfort, along with changing any behaviours that are relevant to the goal, and then teach them to do a good job of it. Possibly teach them to look like they enjoy it, if I saw any reason to do so.

Aswad -> RE: your master wants another (5/9/2007 8:32:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littleone35 Aswad you are assuming i never tired this i di i was a little younger and curious what the big deal was about. I'm not assuming anything. I specifically said "if you haven't tried it already", or something to that effect, in fact. Although, from what you said, you tried a bit of experimenting, rather than a systematic approach. I'll explain how it doesn't fit with the experiment I proposed a bit further down. But here, I'll point out that there is a difference between a bit of experimenting and a directed and systematic effort at deep psychological rewiring. quote: So i tried it with a frind i was totallu comfortable nothing big but the little we did i totally hated so i have the experience to back up my statment. The way in which this differs from what I said, is that you didn't take a small step outside your comfort zone. Instead, you took a big step into your "will-only-make-things-worse" zone. The same thing goes for anxiety, for instance. One of the ways of treating anxiety (or phobias for that matter) is to pick something that won't cause a reaction (which would just make things worse), but which is still outside the comfort zone. Progressively doing this slowly expands the comfort zone. Eventually, the comfort zone encompasses the entirety of what was originally a problem, but this can take years for some people. What you did caused a reaction, which deepens the distress, rather than lessening it. In order for something like this to be successful, each step has to be one that doesn't provoke an outright reaction. For instance, just getting comfortable with skin-to-skin contact between two nude people of the same gender can be a big step for some, but can be a small step for others. There are many, small steps, taken over as much time as it takes. quote: I also stand by my statment. But thanks for the response. No problem. I'm sorry your own experiment didn't work out.

Celeste43 -> RE: your master wants another (5/10/2007 12:56:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Pick some kind of intimacy that you would be uncomfortable engaging in with a woman, but which you would be capable of forcing yourself to do without any serious adverse reaction. Find a woman you're otherwise comfortable with, who you should preferrably know well and trust, and who would obviously need to consent; no banging anyone over the head and dragging them back to the cave. [sm=lol.gif] Force yourself to engage in the intimacy in question with her, making sure that she knows up-front not to make any advances or otherwise push this further past your comfort zone. Wouldn't work on me. 1) The idea of any physical intimacy with a female including a chaste, closed mouth kiss makes me nauseous. That's in just reading about it, I don't want to imagine how much worse it would be in reality. 2) I have friends who are lesbians, they don't play with girls who play with boys. I don't have any close friendships with anyone I know is bi, so there isn't anyone I could try this with, assuming me being nauseous if not actually physically sick doesn't qualify as an adverse effect. 3) Since I am totally uncomfortable with sex with females, anything would be beyond my comfort zone. Referring to your earlier post. About Jewish interpretations of LGBTQ, the passage in question reads in English something on the order of not doing anything unnatural. Now for Orthodox, that translates to non male/female sex. However among us Reconstructionists the interpretation is not do to things that are against your own nature. So if would be wrong for a lesbian to force herself to have heterosexual sex and wrong for a straight to have same sex encounters. Which is why my shul has no problem with LGBTQ people and they are represented among the congregation.

ennaozzie -> RE: your master wants another (5/11/2007 1:20:15 AM)
I would imagine that if a couple are looking for another, then its a mutual right from the start and it would be something both want, as i can not imagine that a REAL Dom would hide the fact from a prospective sub that he wants more than one. A lot of considerations go into weither you make that commitment in the first place, and hiding things is not a good start from either partner or someone you are considering as a partner. But then there is the other side, of discovering boundries have changed, as people do learn and grow in different directions if that is the case i would imagine that if a couple thought that things had changed, would they not discuss it?

Aswad -> RE: your master wants another (5/11/2007 6:52:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Celeste43 Wouldn't work on me. Quite possible. It was just an example, not the only way. quote: 1) The idea of any physical intimacy with a female including a chaste, closed mouth kiss makes me nauseous. That's in just reading about it, I don't want to imagine how much worse it would be in reality. In that case, physical intimacy is not the place to start in order to achieve desensitization. quote: 2) I have friends who are lesbians, they don't play with girls who play with boys. I don't have any close friendships with anyone I know is bi, so there isn't anyone I could try this with, assuming me being nauseous if not actually physically sick doesn't qualify as an adverse effect. Most the vanilla women I know wouldn't mind an encounter with another woman, even if they don't identify as bi. But, yes, availability of a person is of course a prerequisite to making that experiment work. quote: 3) Since I am totally uncomfortable with sex with females, anything would be beyond my comfort zone. Yes, see my reply to point #1. quote: About Jewish interpretations of LGBTQ, the passage in question reads in English something on the order of not doing anything unnatural. Roughly, off the top of my head, "You shall not lie with a man as you would lie with a woman; it is an abomination." Though there have been debates about the meaning of every single word in that passage, not to mention the context around it, which mostly defines the Abrahamic faith in terms of opposition to the practices of the existing inhabitants of the land of Canaan, as the list includes only practices subscribed to by the Canaanites, and includes most of them. There have also been debates about whether this refers to gay rape or gay sex, as the practice of gay rape as a form of dominance and oppression has been used in cultures at that time (as it is in prisons etc now). quote: Now for Orthodox, that translates to non male/female sex. I'll take your word for that. I do know there are groups who confine it to gay sex with penetration, while others include lesbian sex and gay non-penetrating sex, as well as there being still others with different definitions. quote: However among us Reconstructionists the interpretation is not do to things that are against your own nature. I cannot recall the official position of the Reconstructionist faction, so I'll take your word for that. I agree with your interpretation of the implications of this position.

Aswad -> RE: your master wants another (5/11/2007 6:58:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ennaozzie I would imagine that if a couple are looking for another, then its a mutual right from the start and it would be something both want, as i can not imagine that a XXXX Dom would hide the fact from a prospective sub that he wants more than one. 4-letter tacnuke X'ed out. I agree that it would make little sense to hide the fact, although the specifics of whether this is acceptable would depend on the nature of the exact dynamic in question. As for discovering it later on, that's certainly a possibility. I wasn't aware that I was poly until some time after I met neph; we have talked extensively about it, however, so she is aware of my feelings on that matter. And we have, from the start (even before I found out about the poly bits), agreed that we will preempt any budding romantic attraction to others, as a part of our agreement around having an "open relationship". Id est, fuckbuddy is okay, play partner is okay, lover is not.

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