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Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 1:12:29 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		It seems that as of late there have been many discussions (OK, so maybe battles may be more accurate) lately on the boards where the meanings of different terms have been put on trial. I am puzzled why so many oppose the accepted meaning of what was obviously established in an effort to define our various roles, actions & tools of the trade. I am not opposed to evolution of words, but to simply attempt to manipulate their meaning seems counter-productive. Many books have already been written on the many aspects of the lifestyle and within them they attempt to define meanings of of the language used to describe it. For the most part, from what research I have done, the definitions are generally along the same lines. Sure there are variations depending on the author and notably what part of the country (countries) they have most of their experience in. I guess what bothers me the most about this entire issue, is what are we doing to the newbies. They come into the lifestyle inexperienced and need nurturing and teaching. They have to be hoping for guidance from their predecessors, but if they are new to the boards, all they see is we agree to disagree. Should a new situation come up, I am all for giving it a term, a distinction, a descriptive word to define it to others in conversation, but to meddle with what is already established is detrimental to not only the new arrivals, but the established. Where does this end, who is the ultimate authority? So if tomorrow someone decides that flogging sounds too brutal and wants to call it "impact tickling"...we simply accept that? Houston..we have a problem...is there an answer?

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Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein
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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 1:49:32 PM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		You know, Scooter, as I read your post, I thought about something; how often do we have these kinds of discussions/arguments relative to term usage in the real time scene? I have had very few if any arguments of this nature in my real time contact with other BDSM'ers and it makes me wonder if we are arguing with pure therorists, rather than those who actually have some experience in kink.

I suppose you can call yourself a Dom or a bottom or a slave or a Master if you want to. But to actually BE these things, one would expect you to have some kind of real time resume, and have people who actually know you real time.

I tend to believe these arguments are started by and participated in by people who have no practical experience at all, and are just BDSM'rs in theory only.

My 2 cents worth,

Lily

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"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 2:13:43 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash
It seems that as of late there have been many discussions (OK, so maybe battles may be more accurate) lately on the boards where the meanings of different terms have been put on trial. I am puzzled why so many oppose the accepted meaning of what was obviously established in an effort to define our various roles, actions & tools of the trade.

I hope the answer is that we accept common terms and know our roles, while making adjustments as needed within our personal relationships...

I imagine that everyone has to agree to some standard (like spitting in public is uncouth) so that we can have civilized (or uncivilized but on our own terms) intercourse, or this would mean I've bought a lot of books and done things that are acceptable only in my head and in my home, and what fun would that be???

I agree with Lily that if this "agree to disagree" on everything under the sun here prevailed in reality, there would never any real time meeting, living, or fun to be had among kinksters, so thank God this is a web based problem.. JHMO, M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 5/27/2005 9:45:11 PM >

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""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 2:28:02 PM   
MemphisDsCouple


Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline 		One of the reasons I like cm is that there is a strong contingent here that sticks up for Webster, and marital honesty and fidelity and other (to me) common sense things like that.

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B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)

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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 2:30:12 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		I absolutley agree with you, Scooter. W/we make our own messes online with all the people who come online to learn, and then get so many different views they are not sure what is basically acceptable and what is not.
This is why I make it as clear as possible My personal definition in My profile. Not on the message boards. And if anyone needs more clarification, they can write to Me and ask reasonable questions. Because most of them aren't reading the boards in the first place!
Yes, I have, politely, I hope, put forth My own views a few times here. But it does get tiring to see the same issues being beaten to death over and over.
I believe there should be basic definitions that hold true throughout the lifestyle, and then those us U/us who live it can make our adjustments to how much or how little W/we implement that definition based upon O/our own comfort levels.
This allows for the flexibility of saying that nothing is set in stone but it still gives newbies a consistent starting point.

*Edited to add* M, I agree that W/we should have standards such as "I imagine that everyone has to agree to some standard (like spitting in public is uncouth)"...
but I am willing to bet that if this was a topic for debate there would be many who would jump on the bandwagon to tell you why spitting in public is not uncouth, and proceed with many examples of where and why it is perfectly acceptable. It's a pointless battle, so I end up choosing to particpate in those threads as little as possible, if at all. I prefer to learn and share in things that are constructive, rather than get into a pissing match over something that ends up being destructive.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 5/27/2005 2:37:32 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 2:35:01 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Not to rain on everyone's positivism parade, but the discussions, as I've read them, have not been about opposing established meanings, but about the fact that there ARE no established meanings.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

I am puzzled why so many oppose the accepted meaning of what was obviously established in an effort to define our various roles, actions & tools of the trade.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 2:38:07 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Not to rain on everyone's positivism parade, but the discussions, as I've read them, have not been about opposing established meanings, but about the fact that there ARE no established meanings.
Lam

There aren't?? Damn all the books/authors and all the lifestylers who live this every day are going to be disappointed.. M

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""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 2:48:57 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		No they're not. They're going to be disappointed if they insist that their use of terminology is "established usage." Otherwise, they're not going to be disappointed.

Don't forget that I am one of those lifestylers.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 2:55:18 PM   
match2u


Posts: 131
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline



still as a newbie - i trust my instincts....

so in asking about definition - the definitions are defined in myself....

i do search.. i do seek... and i will find and respect them

petra


< Message edited by match2u -- 5/27/2005 2:57:14 PM >

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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 2:57:21 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I have to agree with LaM... there arent any accepted definitions.

There are books and websites and dictionaries both Lifestyle and conventional that disagree on definitions. No matter how much you argue and read similar definitons within them - you will always see another.

I personally have a really hard time why people feel a need for definitions. Whilsts classifying has its advantages - it brings with it a huge amount of baggage. More negative than positive.

Its all very easy for us as a 'group' - 'minority' - 'section of population' - whatever you want to call ourselves to make a huge list on what people should and must be called. But why? What gives us the right to take words used in everyday modern language, manipulate them into our meaning and then expect people outside of wiitwdjust accept our definitions without wonderng the hell why? No one has the right to call me 'girl' or 'sub' or anything - They can try - but doesn't make it or them, right.

We have the basics - what is a whip - a safeword - what drugs can do - what is freedom in servitude - the power of domination - these work. But a personal label? A name? A position? Makes no sense to me. Why can't we just let people be themself? Why can't we practise what we preach and leave the labels and accusations to those that would be foolish enough to use them idly.

We spend half the time fighting for the rights we desire concerning acceptance of what we practise and the freedom not to conform and the other half arguing because nobody wants to conform to the desire we accept.

Peace and Love

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.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 3:00:51 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, I have to say, I've always wondered: Why would anyone flee the tyranny of normal sexuality--only to nestle in a world of conformity?

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 5/27/2005 3:12:45 PM >

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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 3:29:32 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Don't forget that I am one of those lifestylers.

I'm not forgetting at all... This must be one of those "if a tree falls in the forrest" arguments than, because with a name like LordandMaster, you know and accept established meanings (just like me and everyone else who's already posted), and you'd therefore not expect that most of your solicitations for engagement would come from Lady mistresses or tops...

There has to be established meanings or no one would ever approach or understand some basic rules of engagement in real life.. M

_____________________________

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""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 3:32:37 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel


Its all very easy for us as a 'group' - 'minority' - 'section of population' - whatever you want to call ourselves to make a huge list on what people should and must be called. But why? What gives us the right to take words used in everyday modern language, manipulate them into our meaning and then expect people outside of wiitwdjust accept our definitions without wonderng the hell why? No one has the right to call me 'girl' or 'sub' or anything - They can try - but doesn't make it or them, right.




dark~angel, here is My point exactly. I do not say that anyone has the right to call you anything. Or treat you in anyway but with respect. That is reserved for your owner, and you do make clear you have an owner. Those that think just because you identify as a female submissive, on this site, or anywhere in print, gives them the right to treat you with disrespect, is a fool, IMO.
What is the definition of a female submissive, dark~angel? Should W/we have one? Do W/we need one?
I think I can say with confidence that the definition of female submissive is *not*, "I am a slut and you can write degrading things to me or about me because I am inferior and I am just around to get you off and send you lots of sexy pictures of myself." Now I wonder how many people think that this is, in fact, a basic definition of a female submissive? Because of all the crap they read on message boards and see in chatrooms? And I might add here that many male submissives (tongue in cheek for use of word *submissive*) have the same general attidue towards Female Dominants. If We have an ad, we must be whores, and therefore they have a perfect right to send Us nasty emails and complain if W/we won't cyber with them. That's what We are here for after all, right?
But this is not what W/we are talking about.
W/we are saying that there should be basic ideas of what the definitions are for Bondage, flogging, CBT, slave, submissive, Dominant, et al. Then it can be expanded upon, or decreased according to an individuals comfort level.
Now if W/we had some basic definitions in this lifestyle, and people adhered to these definitions, then those that just want to play at being big shots or think that they have to crawl around and call themselvs a "worm" would soon find themselves getting no kick at all in a realistic BDSM - D/s community. Because the consistency of the basic idea of respect and definition would be consisently adhered to by A/all. Then they can go develop or find their own playgroup who thinks that this type of online disrespect is cool and fun and what it is all about. "Let's argue til the cows come home, because my way is the only way and the right way!"
My way, is the way I prefer things in My personal relationships. I can share that on these boards, but it doesn't mean everyone has to agree, or take issue and tell Me I am wrong!
And I am not talking about Dominants who think it is alright to demand things or show disrespect just because they say they are Dominants. And I am not talking about submissives who say that it is alright to treat others with disrespect just because they are not *your* submissive. W/we are all people, and W/we all should be accorded the same courtesty, regardless of O/our orientation.
So many put forth thier views as "set in stone, I think this is stupid, and this is not how W/we do it, and this is the only way it should be acceptable", yada, yada, is exactly why there should be some sort of accepted, reasonable definitition as a starting point.
And that does not have anything to do with BDSM. Using BDSM as an excuse to treat people with disrespect is just that: an excuse.
What it does have to do with is common manners. W/we seem to be sadly lacking in manners.
Instead of sharing our personal views and experiences on this board, too many end up getting into major arguments over why you have to do it their way, or you are wrong. And when newbies see this, how can they be expected to understand that this is not the way you approach someone on a personal level.
This is supposed to be a good place to learn and share. I don't have a problem because I can see through the bullshit. Newbies may not be able to, and then they are just more confused.


< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 5/27/2005 3:50:09 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 3:37:07 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		There may be as many definitions as there are books, but the basics are there..those to chose to ignore this..are simply sticking their head in the sand. Most terms are defined, either in whole or in part. Sure there is some controversy, but nothing like the magnatude I have seen lately. As an FYI (that's "for your information" to those who like to make up their own meanings) I just quickly looked up some of the controversial terms from books off the shelf;


Slave; Someone who is or wishes to be completely owned and controlled by their top, who usually defines as Master or Mistress. While slave was once a generic term for bottoms in general, it is now politically incorrect to assume that someone is a slave merely because he or she is a submissive or masochist.
Submission; Achieving sexual gratification by yielding control to the top. This may be done following their orders, being restrained, kneeling, giving the top a respective title, and so forth.
Power exchange; A temporary, consentual transfer of control from the bottom to the top for the duration of an S/M scene or an S/M relationship. Used as a synonym for S/M.
S/M; Sadomasochism; Sex that involves adopting fantasy roles, using implements to produce stress or erotic pain, physical restraint, or other techniques to create a consentual exchange of power between the participants.
(Sensuous Magic, Patrick Califia, Cleis Press, 2001)

Slave; Often used interchangeably with submissive. However, generally reflecting a more intense level of submission or non-sexual or sexual-plus submission. For example, a slave might be someone who remains in a 24-hour-per-day submission and cooks, cleans and otherwise takes care of a Dominant’s house.
Submissive; An individual who gives up power in a BDSM relationship for the mutual pleasure of those involved.
(Loving Dominant, John Warren Ph.D., Greenery Press, 2000)

Slave; A person who makes a commitment to serve a lifestyle Master/Mistress, usually on a permanent basis (though master/slave relationships can be as volatile as any other normal romantic relationship). Slaves grant their partners “ownership” and, within the relationship, are treated as owned property.
Slaves generally give blanket consent to their Dominants at the time of their commitment. They generally are able to eroticize most (if not all) aspects of SM that their partners introduce. At the least, they are accepting that their Dominants have an unquestionable right to do with them as they wish. For this reason, once they have turned control over to their Dominant, lifestyle slaves are unlikely to use safe words or contracts, and often surrender the right to negotiate scenes.
Many slaves refuse to characterize themselves as “bottoms” because of the implication that a bottom is not interested in power exchange. Most slaves are masochists. All slaves are submissive. Power exchange is the slaves raison d’etre.
Submissive; A person who submits to the will of a dominant for erotic pleasure.
Although some people use “slave” and “submissive” interchangeably, subs make distinctions. A sub’s relationship with the submissive may be more role-play than role-based. Submissives seldom view themselves as owned property but as equal partners who consent to certain types of kinky sex, based on negotiation, contracts the use of safe words and other communication tools that imply equal stature between partners (at least before the play begins).
Perhaps the biggest single distinction is that the submissives are not always masochists. Their pleasure may come from service and obedience alone. They may choose relationships that offer psychological dominance and control, various types of role-playing, fetishes, and milder forms of bondage or very light, largely symbolic discipline but no real pain.
(Come Hither, Gloria Brame (also author of “Different Loving”), Simon & Schuster, 2000)

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 3:39:59 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
I have to agree with LaM... there arent any accepted definitions.

Angel I know you're being your usual "Very Open minded" self, but there are accepted basics... I don't ever approach Doms for a relationship because I know my nature and what I seek. How often do you welcome emails saying "dominate me you wild woman slave you?"... Do you not roll your eyes and say "what is he retarded?"

quote:

I personally have a really hard time why people feel a need for definitions. Whilsts classifying has its advantages - it brings with it a huge amount of baggage. More negative than positive.

I disagree that definitions are more negative; I think they are good for knowing where one stands and from which point to approach things.
I don't need classification for hierarchical purposes; I need them for fairly safe and sane meetings.

quote:

Why can't we just let people be themself? Why can't we practise what we preach and leave the labels and accusations to those that would be foolish enough to use them idly.
Peace and Love

Okay I can agree that this is a good idea and less of a waste of energy, but if I was wondering around looking lost, and seeming to need direction (because I was clueless or sick), I would appreciate a helping hand from someone who knew and was benevolent... That is just moi though, M

Oh damn, I lost the squirrelly writing at the end..

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a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 4:08:15 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		As usual, there's a false set of alternatives here: either words mean something eternal, immutable, and universally understandable--or else words mean nothing at all and no communication is possible.

It should be pretty obvious that the real world exists somewhere between those asinine extremes.

As someone who has actually worked on compiling a dictionary, I find it strange how everyone misunderstands what lexicography is all about. Dictionaries don't DETERMINE usage; they REPORT it.

Lam

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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 4:37:11 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

As usual, there's a false set of alternatives here: either words mean something eternal, immutable, and universally understandable--or else words mean nothing at all and no communication is possible.

It should be pretty obvious that the real world exists somewhere between those asinine extremes.

As someone who has actually worked on compiling a dictionary, I find it strange how everyone misunderstands what lexicography is all about. Dictionaries don't DETERMINE usage; they REPORT it.

Lam


I don't disagree, but how can it be reported if it hasn't already been determined that this is the widely accepted (and acceptable in many cases) usage? The purpose of a dictionary, IMO, is to see proper spelling and pronunciation and a definition or definitions, depending on context, of the use of the word.
Eventually defnitions can expand with consistent and accepted usage. Hence:
This site is really "cool".
She is one "hot" babe.
But the original definition of cool is still cool. And the original definition of hot is still hot.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 5/27/2005 4:38:08 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 4:44:05 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		That's just not how language works. By that argument, you'd have to say that "dangerous" means "domineering," because that's the original meaning of the word. Or "doctor" has to mean "teacher." Or "scholar" has to mean "student." Or "embarrassed" has to mean "obstructed."

Language is determined by the people who use it.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

The purpose of a dictionary, IMO, is to see proper spelling and pronunciation and a definition or definitions, depending on context, of the use of the word.
Eventually defnitions can expand with consistent and accepted usage. Hence:
This site is really "cool".
She is one "hot" babe.
But the original definition of cool is still cool. And the original definition of hot is still hot.

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)
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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 5:07:57 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
This isn't aimed at people inparticular -

there will ALWAYS be labels and definitions. Always. But they wont always be the same and I fail to see the logic in our community fighting and bickering over THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO FUCK IT ALL.

I don't have a problem with labels persay - they exist - I am not that naive to think I can live without them BUT - I dont agree that certain people feel it absolutley needed to tell someone 'THE ARE NOT A SLAVE' or 'The are not a Master.... just because it doesn't fall into their choice.

As for Different loving etc... they are books. Not bibles. I don't live my life through a book - i live it for real and for me. I don;t follow someone elses rules because they deem it right. I RESPECT their view and accept they might be different to me, but I would never dream of telling them they are WRONG just because their view doesn't fit my little world. Thats rude and presumptious. What I will say is... 'hey - works for you - go for it but for ME its wrong'.

I repeat again - people are arguing for acceptance - but refuse to accept and that just isn't good karma.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 5:12:01 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

disagree that definitions are more negative; I think they are good for knowing where one stands and from which point to approach things.
I don't need classification for hierarchical purposes; I need them for fairly safe and sane meetings


I think you are right and it was me that may have worded it wrong M'Lady. Definitions aren't negative - you are right. But people who want to abuse those definitions make them negative.

Blue is blue. Night blue, sea blue, sky blue, violet, cian, turquoise, are a form of blue, but they are still blue. However, turquoise could be green, violet, purple. Its how one sees it that makes it what it is.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
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