Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 9:16:40 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		See, that's exactly what's wrong with all the terminology. "Dreaming about being whipped is a common fantasy"--that's fine. But "You're a masochist because you dream about being whipped" is a totally different story. You're making all kinds of claims and assumptions in there, and most of them come from using boilerplate terminology instead of taking the person as an individual.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple

If the neophyte says, "I have dreams of being whipped," we need to be able to say, "that's called masochism. It's a pretty widely held fantasy. You're ok. There is nothing wrong with you."


(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 6:30:25 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Ach - thats why online can be so totally difficult...

I don't think you undestood the irony of most my post.... just a small example -


quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I am forever seeing the description of a slave as 'owned property' - but if thats simply the case, then no one can claim to be a slave or even have one.


This conclusion is an error both of logic and of fact. The definition cited is fine. The definition does not precluce someone being or owning a slave. The conclusion is erroneous on all counts.


What you said - was my point.

Peace and Love

< Message edited by dark~angel -- 5/29/2005 6:31:44 AM >

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 6:33:54 AM   
MemphisDsCouple


Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline 		In my example, I did not say to the neophyte, "you are a masochist".

I said, as you quoted, "that's called masochism".

There is a huge difference.

She can decide for herself whether she is, wants to be or wants to call herself a masochist.

No one "labeled" her.

You quoted my words in my post and then wrote that I said something different from what I wrote. This is the second thread in just a couple days where you did that. Geez wouldja cut that out?

Thanks!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

See, that's exactly what's wrong with all the terminology. "Dreaming about being whipped is a common fantasy"--that's fine. But "You're a masochist because you dream about being whipped" is a totally different story. You're making all kinds of claims and assumptions in there, and most of them come from using boilerplate terminology instead of taking the person as an individual.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple

If the neophyte says, "I have dreams of being whipped," we need to be able to say, "that's called masochism. It's a pretty widely held fantasy. You're ok. There is nothing wrong with you."





_____________________________

B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 6:44:37 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Oh, come on. BOTH groups have been all over these boards.


You are correct, both groups have had equal representation on these boards. However, there is only one group that has been stressing the importance of tolerance, acceptance and understanding while seemingly oblivious to the fact that their actions have been contradictory at every turn. Their touted viewpoint of tolerance, acceptance and understanding is entirely negated by their hypocritical behavior.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 7:41:50 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

Oh, come on. BOTH groups have been all over these boards.


You are correct, both groups have had equal representation on these boards. However, there is only one group that has been stressing the importance of tolerance, acceptance and understanding while seemingly oblivious to the fact that their actions have been contradictory at every turn. Their touted viewpoint of tolerance, acceptance and understanding is entirely negated by their hypocritical behavior.


I believe you can't draw a line through the sand like that erin. My observation is different. I have seen intolerance and tolerance on both sides of the argument. I’m not sure what side you are labeling as the intolerant one.

I truly believe that we are what we identify as. Our identity is the only thing we really own (waiting for identity theft jokes here). I think that anyone who wants to call themselves a slave, a Mistress or the Grand Poohbah of BDSM should just go ahead and do it. The onus is on them after to prove it to those that matter.

I don’t want any of these titles. I have made a grand realization as of late that I don’t really fit into the BDSM lifestyle or community. I am here discussing issues of interest with likeminded people. If these people wish to form a community with rules and regulations and strict definitions, then so be it. But they will need to all agree on these definitions and I don’t see that happening any time soon here. Because identification is a very personal and subjective thing.

I don’t see how any of these statements are intolerant, void of acceptance and understanding.

I would also add that there are people who have argued for stricter definitions who have demonstrated the same tolerance, GoddessDustyGold for example. She has strong opinions on the subject that differ very much from mine but I still have the utmost respect for her point of view. She essentially says if you don’t want to do it my way, which is “more traditional expectations of what D/s used to be about”, then I am not interested” and that’s fine. I have a similar statement but I take out the concept of traditional expectations.

She has also stated that people are free to live out their dynamics like they chose. I agree! She however suggests that we don’t label it D/s unless it meets some stricter criteria (I sincerely hope I am interpreting your thoughts correctly Dusty and please let me know if I’ve misunderstood). This is where it gets tricky for me. I agree with her only in the fact that I don’t think it is productive to label anything at all. I think that applying a definition to a relationship drives the relationship rather then letting the relationship evolve. I’ve made that error many times.

I now will say that my relationships will have a D/s dynamic to them without saying I am a Domme and my partner is a sub. I am a woman who is dominant. He is a man who is socially dominant but who appreciates me taking the lead in our relationship. In his eyes, I’m his Mistress, his Goddess and the woman he loves. We both enjoy many kink aspects of WIITWD. We enjoy a whole lot of other things as well. We aren’t “lifestyle”. We are ourselves.

I actually would gladly withdraw myself from the “BDSM Lifestylers” group because I don’t really feel I belong there anyways. I have many things in common with the lifestylers in terms of WIITWD and I believe this site is encompassing of much more then just hardcore lifestylers. However not everyone wants to do this and I can’t speak for them. But if you want a stricter, less inclusive group, by all means. You’ll just have to work for it. It is not impossible, but you will also lose a lot of the diversity you have going on at this moment, wonderful diversity I might add.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/29/2005 7:46:56 AM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 8:09:37 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

[W/we are saying that there should be basic ideas of what the definitions are for Bondage, flogging, CBT, slave, submissive, Dominant, et al. Then it can be expanded upon, or decreased according to an individuals comfort level.]


I completely agree, there is a need for common terms and definitions of those terms. I also agree that those definitions should be something that each of U/us be able to expatiate on to better fit our own personal relationships with out completely invalidating the basic meanings.

quote:

We have the basics - what is a whip - a safeword - what drugs can do - what is freedom in servitude - the power of domination - these work. But a personal label? A name? A position? Makes no sense to me. Why can't we just let people be themself?


A name? That should be self-explanatory. Personally… I want to know beyond any shadow of a doubt when someone is speaking to me so to assure that I have a name, I do not answer to “hey lady”. (opps, that would be a label, wouldn’t it?) A label? Again, self-explanatory. I am a writer, labeling myself in that way makes it clear to others that I am not the person to ask about pouring concrete. In that same respect, I label myself as a Dominant… That way when someone seeks out a submissive I am not included in that search. As far as position is concerned, well… that has so many meanings that I find it all but impossible that one could decide that it is pointless or senseless. My position on same-sex marriage is that I think it should be legal. My current position is that I am sitting in a chair. My “employment position” is that I am a stay at home housewife that writes on the side. My position in the lifestyle is that I am a female dominant that is interested in a D/s relationship that will, in time, work into an M/s relationship in a polyamorous family. I have no problem letting people be themselves, I thrive on individuality! But in the same respect, no amount of arguing is going to convince me that that dog on a leash is an iguana!! If that is what that person chooses to believe, go for it, but don’t try to convince me of it and don’t take my views of reality so lightly as to think that someday it’s going to be just fine to call that animal what ever works for you and it will be publicly accepted. No matter how often or openly people patronize this line of reasoning there is still a standard that has to be recognized and upheld.

quote:

So now W/we have alot of newbies who say to Me, for instance, "well, what do you mean I can't have a girlriend?", what do you mean I can't for out with my friends on Friday night"? Because now these newbies are under the impression that slave can mean a a part time, when the spirit moves the Owner and when the spirit moves the slave. They think this is typical! Why? Because they read it on message boards and they talked about it in chatrooms. Oh boy, this is fun! Can't wait to become a slave!


Thank you so much for adding this to the pot. One of the first questions I have been asked by prospective submissives (aside from the “Are you gonna beat my ass all the time?”) is “So, it’ll be ok if I have a “fuck buddy”, right? Along with, will I have any days off?

quote:

Yes we DO have the right to tell someone that they are not what they claim according to the commonly recognized standards or terms. If they have the right to say they are such then we most certainly have the right to say they aren't. Rights go both ways.


Bravo! Very well put!

quote:

I say Mine is the more traditional expectations of what D/s used to be about, basically.


You are not alone Dusty, not by a long shot. I say Mine is too. We all have different ways of doing things or seeing things, but there are basics that, for the most part, we all adhere to. I think one of the biggest things here is the dynamics being discussed. I seek out and live a D/s or M/s lifestyle, in our home BDSM is only a perk, not the end all, be all of the relationship.

quote:

The Libertarian Group is down the hall. And the Anarchy Group meets every third Saturday in the building next door. But the BDSM'ers - they're right here and what they are all about is Bondage, Discipline, Sadism and Masochism. They intermingle freely and openly with the D&S Group (Dominance and Submission) because the two groups have a lot in common and most members belong to both groups anyway. This is collarme.com, not imokyoureok.com


I believe that a lot of our frustrations stem from the fact that so many see the two as interchangeable when in reality they are two totally separate things that just happen to blend well on most occasions. This is not a commune where everyone loves everyone else and flowers and peace signs mingle with group sex and lots of good drugs. This is NOT a free-for-all, do what you want and call it what you want when ever you want. It is a community and never in the history of mankind has a community of any sort survived for any serious length of time without the basic terminology with basic meanings and basic rules that are commonly understood and upheld by the members of the community. Expand on the basic meanings, edify new terminology and elucidate abstruse “rules” and basic beliefs, but do NOT take away from them.

Jewel



_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 8:35:35 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

She essentially says if you don’t want to do it my way, which is “more traditional expectations of what D/s used to be about”, then I am not interested” and that’s fine. I have a similar statement but I take out the concept of traditional expectations.


I agree, although just as you take out the traditional expectations, I would add to that statement that not only am I not interested in all of the new morph and change, I refuse to recognize it as the same thing. If you wish to be different I don't have an issue with that. What I do have an issue with is if you practice something different yet insist upon calling it the same thing.

You are very specific LadyA in your personal description of how you identify and it very clearly portrays to others who and what you are. I will use two extreme examples and before anyone jumps all over me to point out that there are many different varying degrees in between, I am well aware.

Take slave 1: Slave one has been owned and in service for the last 10 years to her Master. She spends her time at home in the nude, on her knees scrubbing floors, cooking, cleaning and serving her Master's every need physically, sexually and mentally. She has many tasks and rituals that have become part of her very existance, and she completes those tasks and basks in the glory of the pride and happiness she sees upon her Master's face. That is what drives her, she lives to please him. She has relinquished the control of all decisions regarding her life to him.

Now we have slave number 2: Slave number 2 has no owner in real life or someone she calls her owner but their only contact is the perfunctory blow job once every two weeks or so when time allows. She keeps other relationships on the side and only goes into her slave mode to fill her occasional need, when it suits her. She makes all of her own decisions regarding her life.

Should these women really be able to say that they are the same thing and expect the rest of us to view them as such? Not in my book! Just the mere fact that slave 2 would have the audacity to attempt to identify herself in that manner is insulting to the postion of slave 1. I don't have an issue with what slave 2 chooses to do, only in that she also expects others to believe that the two are the same....they are not.

I am not intolerant and have never told anyone that they could not practice as they wish....but for heaven's sake, don't piss on my leg and try to convince me it's raining.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 8:51:13 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
You are very specific LadyA in your personal description of how you identify and it very clearly portrays to others who and what you are.

Thank you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Should these women really be able to say that they are the same thing and expect the rest of us to view them as such? Not in my book! Just the mere fact that slave 2 would have the audacity to attempt to identify herself in that manner is insulting to the postion of slave 1. I don't have an issue with what slave 2 chooses to do, only in that she also expects others to believe that the two are the same....they are not.


That's the problem with labels. People can interpret them as they wish. I believe that both women have the right to identify with slave ideology. Do *you* personally think that they are both slaves, probably not. But in the end, does that really matter?

I understand where you are coming from. But in the end, worrying about how other people define themselves only causes unnecessary frustrations in my opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I am not intolerant and have never told anyone that they could not practice as they wish....but for heaven's sake, don't piss on my leg and try to convince me it's raining.


Nah! I'd call it a golden shower. But then again, that's just my perception! ;)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 9:28:42 AM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Not to rain on everyone's positivism parade, but the discussions, as I've read them, have not been about opposing established meanings, but about the fact that there ARE no established meanings.

Come on LAM..I've been a non-conformist since Vietnam, but you know that there are some things that are established that are OK..be kind of hard to communicate when there is no established definition to it. You label yourself as a Master, I'm OK with that..but by your rationale I guess now I am justified to ask you how long you have been submissive?

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
I personally have a really hard time why people feel a need for definitions.

Again to make my point...you state you are submissive. Alas..with no definition for this, what is this? Perhaps my take on submissive is that you will do anything that anyone wants you to, I could justify that line of reasoning! Somehow I don't think that is what you meant. I understand that this is precisely your point, you do not like labels just for that reason..but consider this..we are stuck with them, so why not define them so there is no misinterpretation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold
Instead of sharing our personal views and experiences on this board, too many end up getting into major arguments over why you have to do it their way, or you are wrong. And when newbies see this, how can they be expected to understand that this is not the way you approach someone on a personal level.
This is supposed to be a good place to learn and share. I don't have a problem because I can see through the bullshit. Newbies may not be able to, and then they are just more confused.

My point exactly. If we cannot agree with some set terms, they are left in the cold, unable to communicate and ask for the guidance they seek.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
As for Different loving etc... they are books. Not bibles. I don't live my life through a book - i live it for real and for me. I don;t follow someone elses rules because they deem it right. I RESPECT their view and accept they might be different to me, but I would never dream of telling them they are WRONG just because their view doesn't fit my little world.

No one is saying they live from a book...I wouldn't take that up with some devout Goreans however. The books are simply reference materials, including a bible. But when someone is obviously disillusioned (likely due to not having definitive meanings), it certainly IS OK to point out their error. Not because it is MY way, but because it is not correct. It doesn't have to be done so flagrantly and sarcastically as I have done in other posts to make a point perhaps, but it is a proper way to teach. If no one was ever told NO or that something was wrong in life, we would still be sticking our hands on the hot burners of the stove. Perhaps in time we would figure it out, but it seems much more practical to define what HOT means.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
Definitions aren't negative - you are right. But people who want to abuse those definitions make them negative.

This frightens me, I think we agree on this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
And its fighting a losing battle demanding we use these terms when they don't exist in outside of wiitwd. We can't make up our own words and expect people who don’t understand to just follow.

First off, we are not talking about defining anything for those outside of the lifestyle, only in, I have no concern if my "nilla" acquaintances have a clue what CBT means. And no, one person should not have the right to make up a term or word and expect all to follow suit, but as a group or community we should expect to be able to.


quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash
quote:

Where does this end, who is the ultimate authority?


ORIGINAL: dark~angel
It lays with the dominant of the relationship.

Only to a point..they can define their specific relationship within boundaries, but not redefine the terms used to describe it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
I've been firm about rejecting this plea for commonly accepted definitions for two reasons: first, they just don't work for me; and second--the more important reason--all these rigid definitions are likely to be chilling for neophytes, who are going to think that if they don't mesh with Established Usage, their feelings aren't normal or genuine. And that's the most dangerous outcome of all.

My gut feeling is they work for you, you are just apprehensive of accepting any form of conformity, even if it helps define who and what you are. We seem to be on opposite sides of the fence with those who are new to the lifestyle however. You fear that they will feel left in the cold because they don't fit and I feel they will be left in the cold because we didn't give them a place to fit in to.

quote:

Original: MemphisDsCouple
9.9 of every 10 "neophytes" I've ever run across are *seeking* definitions - as well as other new knowledge. They say, "what am I? What are these feelings and urges within me?" To simply say to them, "hey - you are what you are" is the pinnacle of ridiculous confusion.

I couldn't agree more. It is our responsibility to help them sort out what they are feeling, reassure that it's OK, point them in the direction they need to go...not tell them "oh hell, anything goes and you can call it what you want".

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
However, there is only one group that has been stressing the importance of tolerance, acceptance and understanding while seemingly oblivious to the fact that their actions have been contradictory at every turn. Their touted viewpoint of tolerance, acceptance and understanding is entirely negated by their hypocritical behavior.

Nodz...it is difficult to understand why it is OK to tear down the walls but by the same token, put an entirely different spin on what something means.

quote:

Original: LadyAngelika
I have seen intolerance and tolerance on both sides of the argument.

Perhaps it could be perceived as such, but if not wanting to accept misleading definitions that can be interpreted any way one feels they want at the time is intolerant..then sure, I fit that category. Change, for the sake of change, is something more suitable for governments who purposely prefer to leave everyone guessing. All I want is communication tools! I want to be able to communicate intelligently with newbies as well as Lam, da, Es and yourself. To attempt to clarify meanings so this is possible, does not seem intolerant to me, it seems logical. Any group, community, sect, or civilization who cannot communicate effectively has in itself an unstable foundation. Do I require the folks in the lifestyle or those who are into D/s, M/s or any other aspect to be able to communicate with me so I may have my own meaningful relationship? NO...I do not have a need or burning desire to have anything to do with anyone else, I would like to, but I can go about my merry way without it. I do think it is very unfair to those who do want to have that sense of belonging, that need to feel like they are not alone, to not give them the tools and guidance to help them along.

I am not saying we have to have rigid standards and everyone must conform or get out. Certainly there will always be variations as well there should be. It would be quite boring and "nilla" for everyone to have to fit into that proverbial pigeon hole..but to provide communication tools and a sense of identity is nearly an obligation. I have no animosity toward those who feel they must have flexibility and individualism in their expression...but I do feel it is only fair that their expression stay within some sort of framework so others, whether reading their post or speaking in R/L can understand where they are coming from. Sure, you are free to be yourself...but wouldn't it be so much nicer to be able to explain to me or someone else why you are so fulfilled and elated in your current relationship. Perhaps your situation is something to behold, something to serve as a model for someone else...don't cheat them out of that simply because we do not wish to agree on what to call it. Language is a tool, it is a means to justify and end, it not an evil we have brought with us. I am quite certain there are those in the lifestyle and on these boards who I would never agree with on some issues, I can tell right now that Lam and I would be like fire and water, but to be able to discuss our differences in a rational and understandable way is paramount to me. I want to see things from his point of view...not so I can agree with them perhaps, but so I can understand what makes him tick (sorry Lam, no specific offense, you were just a good example for this..lol). Everyone's opinion and interpretation is vitally important, but to move onto those issues that we really should be discussing such as safety, techniques, how tos and the like, we all need to be on an even playing field when it comes to getting our point across. I would much rather prefer to be discussing how to build economical dungeon furniture than discussing what determines if it's OK to call yourself a this or that.







< Message edited by ScooterTrash -- 5/29/2005 9:37:21 AM >

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 10:03:04 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash
quote:

Original: LadyAngelika
I have seen intolerance and tolerance on both sides of the argument.

Perhaps it could be perceived as such, but if not wanting to accept misleading definitions that can be interpreted any way one feels they want at the time is intolerant..then sure, I fit that category.

Nah. You aren't intolerant. You are opinionated. Intolerant would be calling us boneheads for not agreeing with you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash
All I want is communication tools! I want to be able to communicate intelligently with newbies as well as Lam, da, Es and yourself. To attempt to clarify meanings so this is possible, does not seem intolerant to me, it seems logical. Any group, community, sect, or civilization who cannot communicate effectively has in itself an unstable foundation.


Communication takes time. We need to negotiate definitions and understand the other's perception in order for meaningful communication to take place. erin and I have many exchanges off the boards and this enabled us to understand where one another were coming from. Before this, she and I were like fire and water on the boards. Now we respectfully co-exist. I have to say I have a lot of admiration for her and now interpret her posts in a completely different light. That is because we invested time in negotiating and exchanging. That is why she can post comments like “You are very specific LadyA in your personal description of how you identify and it very clearly portrays to others who and what you are.” She didn’t build that opinion from this thread. She built that opinion from many exchanges. She has acquired a certain understanding of where I am coming from via our multiple exchanges. There is no one word that could have related all of this to her.

Meaningful communication does not happen overnight. That is why I consider labels hindering. They try to oversimplify communication and create presumptions. We want everything to happen so fast, we want to label things so that people understand where we are coming from immediately. More often then not, labels are misleading.

So my humble suggestion to you Scooter is that you keep communicating the way you eloquently do and these will turn out to be excellent communication strategies. Dialogue is the best tool there is in my opinion.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 12:26:40 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I don't see what I misrepresented. Your imaginary person said "I have dreams of being whipped," and you replied, "THAT'S called masochism."

Sorry, that's not masochism, as half an hour's worth of reading about masochism would reveal.

Lam

Edited because even geniuses can make typos.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple

You quoted my words in my post and then wrote that I said something different from what I wrote. This is the second thread in just a couple days where you did that. Geez wouldja cut that out?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple

If the neophyte says, "I have dreams of being whipped," we need to be able to say, "that's called masochism. It's a pretty widely held fantasy. You're ok. There is nothing wrong with you."




< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 5/29/2005 12:32:32 PM >

(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 12:28:11 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I'm amused that someone who has never met me, and almost surely never will, can have a "gut feeling" about what makes me apprehensive.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
I've been firm about rejecting this plea for commonly accepted definitions for two reasons: first, they just don't work for me; and second--the more important reason--all these rigid definitions are likely to be chilling for neophytes, who are going to think that if they don't mesh with Established Usage, their feelings aren't normal or genuine. And that's the most dangerous outcome of all.

My gut feeling is they work for you, you are just apprehensive of accepting any form of conformity, even if it helps define who and what you are.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 2:31:09 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

A name? That should be self-explanatory. Personally… I want to know beyond any shadow of a doubt when someone is speaking to me so to assure that I have a name, I do not answer to “hey lady”. (opps, that would be a label, wouldn’t it?) A label? Again, self-explanatory. I am a writer, labeling myself in that way makes it clear to others that I am not the person to ask about pouring concrete. In that same respect, I label myself as a Dominant… That way when someone seeks out a submissive I am not included in that search. As far as position is concerned, well… that has so many meanings that I find it all but impossible that one could decide that it is pointless or senseless. My position on same-sex marriage is that I think it should be legal. My current position is that I am sitting in a chair. My “employment position” is that I am a stay at home housewife that writes on the side. My position in the lifestyle is that I am a female dominant that is interested in a D/s relationship that will, in time, work into an M/s relationship in a polyamorous family. I have no problem letting people be themselves, I thrive on individuality! But in the same respect, no amount of arguing is going to convince me that that dog on a leash is an iguana!! If that is what that person chooses to believe, go for it, but don’t try to convince me of it and don’t take my views of reality so lightly as to think that someday it’s going to be just fine to call that animal what ever works for you and it will be publicly accepted. No matter how often or openly people patronize this line of reasoning there is still a standard that has to be recognized and upheld.


Name as in the name one gives themself (Grand poohba of the almighty) - not the name they are known as ie Tom, dick or harriet...

Your a writer - yes - but what kind?
Published?
Poet?
Fictional?
Lyrical?

I never said labels don't assist - but relying on them as alot of people seen to want to describe a person I just don't get. Sure, its good to know you are a writer if I meet you - but that doesn;'t determine my perception of you - I wouldn't dream of saying 'Oh - you can't be a writer, your not published ' (if you weren't say) Because thats not as black and white as that. Labels are all well and good, but what I consider to be a writer, another considers just useless words on a page that make no sense - different likes, and perceptions.

Labels assist - but they don't aid - they are abused to make it look like someone is better than another. I would much rather get to know someone and find out what they are in relation to my world and theres as we co-exist than to rely on an unreliable black and white word.

Peace and love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/29/2005 7:08:00 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
I'm amused that someone who has never met me, and almost surely never will, can have a "gut feeling" about what makes me apprehensive.
Happy to at least be of some humor and you never know, I have met many people before that I didn't think I would.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/30/2005 7:24:54 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Your a writer - yes - but what kind?
Published?
Poet?
Fictional?
Lyrical?
I never said labels don't assist - but relying on them as alot of people seen to want to describe a person I just don't get. Sure, its good to know you are a writer if I meet you - but that doesn;'t determine my perception of you - I wouldn't dream of saying 'Oh - you can't be a writer, your not published ' (if you weren't say) Because thats not as black and white as that. Labels are all well and good, but what I consider to be a writer, another considers just useless words on a page that make no sense - different likes, and perceptions.


Label: A term or phrase used to classify or describe persons, schools of thought, etc.

Name: A word or group of words by which a person, thing, animal, class, or concept is distinctively known or referred to; esp., the proper appellation of a person or family.

As you can see from the definitions, name and label have two distinct meanings. Again, I reiterate, because I have an overwhelming need to understand when one is speaking to me, I chose a name. What anyone “assumes” about me because of my name is of no concern to me, it is a name, not an honorific, not a “title”, which is what I think you may have meant.

The “label” I give myself is, as the definitions states, a classification... Writer. A very broad description, one that leaves another wondering, as you stated, what kind of writer? It could be pure gibberish or it could be a published novel... because it is such an open label one is left only to assume that I do, indeed “write”. The same can easily be said about the labels “slave” and “submissive”, if one labels themselves as a “slave” the others are left to “assume” that the person is, in the broadest sense of the word, a “slave”. If someone one labels themselves as a “submissive” then I am left to assume that they will “submit to the will” of another, in the broadest sense of the word. Therefore, labels are very important to me personally. If a profile states they are a slave, again, going by the broadest sense of the word, I assume they are “owned” and that they are not available.

quote:

Labels assist - but they don't aid - they are abused to make it look like someone is better than another.


Assist: To give or render help to; relieve; give help or support to.

Aid: To render assistance.

So is that statement double talk or what? I don’t honestly believe that an individual that is living in a 24/7 M/s relationship, one that has become a slave in their heart and mind is stating in any way shape or form that they are better then a submissive. At the most they are stating that they are different or in a different type of relationship. The same holds true for a Dominant that refers to themselves as a Master or Mistress, they are not necessarily proclaiming themselves to be better then anyone else, it is a “label” that states what kind of relationship they are involved in. Granted, there are some that use these labels as personal descriptions for the reasons you stated, as well as out of ignorance of the basic meanings behind them. As far as they are concerned... if one has been educated about the implied basic meaning of such labels and chooses to continue to use them in a way that they believe makes them “look like they are better” then others... more power to them, IMNSHO, I’m glad they think so highly of themselves because they may be the only one bestowing that honorific on themselves.

IMNSHO someone that is barely capable of stringing together a coherent sentence is, in the broadest sense of the word, a writer. But in the implied basic meaning of the word one is left to assume that they do indeed compose literary works of some sort. In the same line of reasoning, if one labels themselves to be a slave, others are left to assume that the person is indeed one that considers themselves to be owned property, one that has given up their rights, power, and authority in some form of a 24/7 real time relationship.

You have stated that you are an artist, wife, and mother. From those “labels” I would assume that you are married, have at least one child and compose some form of artistic works. I would NOT assume that you are unmarried, dress your cat in diapers and draw on the wall with crayons. Labels are extremely important in the respect that they DO give others some sense of where that person is coming from, who and what they see themselves as and how they wish others to view them.

I do not believe that a label has to be as restrictive as you seem to see them. I am a wife. In saying that I am only stating that it is safe to assume that I am married. When I say I am a Dominant, I am stating only that it is safe to assume that I am, well, a Dominant.

Honestly, isn’t it time to lighten up some and stop reading strict meanings into places where they simply don’t exist and accept that the gray areas you talk about do have limitations and cannot, under the widest stretch of the imagination, encompass the world. There are some things that are, under no uncertain terms, black and white. To claim to be a “slave”... black and white, you are stating that you are owned and have given yourself, your power, your authority and your rights to make your own decisions to One that has authority and dominance over you... gray area – as a slave you are also the one that has to see to it that the water bill is paid monthly, that the “owner” takes their medicines are taken on time, the little things that is individualized in each relationship.

Jewel

< Message edited by ShiftedJewel -- 5/30/2005 7:47:43 AM >

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/30/2005 1:50:37 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

Labels assist - but they don't aid - they are abused to make it look like someone is better than another.

Assist: To give or render help to; relieve; give help or support to.

Aid: To render assistance.

So is that statement double talk or what?


No double talk - the rest of what you said has nothing to do with the satement I made, so you have taken the words out of context. Labels are abused(whether on purpose or by accident) - you see it everyday - and when people feel that labels must be adhered to is why labels can hinder and is why people are discussing the negative thoughts on labels. Labels are fine as long as you realise that not everyone is going to agree with your ideas on the label.

No One said that labels are wrong - but everyone has different words for different things - cultural, national, religious. What some people are saying is that you shouldn't rely on labels - that communication is the only way of truely defining what a label actually is.

quote:

Honestly, isn’t it time to lighten up some and stop reading strict meanings into places where they simply don’t exist


Yup - thats what I have been saying all along.
quote:

and accept that the gray areas you talk about do have limitations and cannot, under the widest stretch of the imagination, encompass the world. There are some things that are, under no uncertain terms, black and white.


Yup - said that too.
There are grey areas to everything - only coversation and communication can find the truth.

quote:

To claim to be a “slave”... black and white, you are stating that you are owned and have given yourself, your power, your authority and your rights to make your own decisions to One that has authority and dominance over you...


For some people, yes - but for an example, I am all those things you just said, but I am not a slave. So no one can call me that and be right.



quote:

gray area – as a slave you are also the one that has to see to it that the water bill is paid monthly, that the “owner” takes their medicines are taken on time, the little things that is individualized in each relationship.


I see that as an individual requirement set out within a relationship but not a grey area - a grey area is when something doesn't fit an exact definition.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/30/2005 1:57:05 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

You have stated that you are an artist, wife, and mother. From those “labels” I would assume that you are married, have at least one child and compose some form of artistic works. I would NOT assume that you are unmarried, dress your cat in diapers and draw on the wall with crayons. Labels are extremely important in the respect that they DO give others some sense of where that person is coming from, who and what they see themselves as and how they wish others to view them.


Yup - all these assumptions would be correct - but further communication would revela if I was allowed to play outside of marriage - whether the man I am married to is the father of the children - indeed, if I am even the mother - and your view on my art might be something you wouldn't consider art. Its the communication thats the key element - not the label itself. It aids.

But if someone has a slaves heart - that means they are open to being enslaved. Yet it isn't right to say they are slave to their desires to help them find someone who would take on a full time slave. Whereas a dominant can call themself a dominant without being totally dominant over everyone - maybe they are dominant over just one person. But they are not ridiculed because its accepted they are dominant?

Just makes no sense.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/30/2005 3:27:52 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I actually would gladly withdraw myself from the “BDSM Lifestylers” group because I don’t really feel I belong there anyways. I have many things in common with the lifestylers in terms of WIITWD and I believe this site is encompassing of much more then just hardcore lifestylers. However not everyone wants to do this and I can’t speak for them. But if you want a stricter, less inclusive group, by all means. You’ll just have to work for it. It is not impossible, but you will also lose a lot of the diversity you have going on at this moment, wonderful diversity I might add.

- LA


I, for One, would be more than disappointed to see you leave these boards. LA. you have always been quite clear about what you stand for, how you practice BDSM and/or D/s in your personal life, and you have been a wealth of other material, links, and thought provoking debate.
You have always made your positions clear about how you feel on certain subjects, and whether or not they fit into your personal comfort level. But you, also, do not get into long winded arrguments on these boards about how you are the only one who is right, and everybody else is wrong, and things need to change.
I honestly think that is the basis for much of this "pissing match" that in happening on several threads right now. When people stand up and beat their chests and insist that their way is the only logical way and should be accepted by A/all, I think it begins to get to some of U/us. And when others procalim the right to anything, instead of making a response to the actual subject, I admit that kind of gets to Me also.
In the end, S/some will take the new idea and run with it, O/others will sit down and think about it for a while, and S/some of U/us will simply say, "No, I am not comfortable with this, but it was an interesting topic."
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I am still doing the upper and lower case thing! *W* Old habits die hard!


_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/30/2005 3:44:01 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for this Dusty :) I appreciate the way you express yourself in a respectful manner as well.

I was not planning on leaving the boards, so no worries!

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/30/2005 5:47:58 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:

quote:

Labels assist - but they don't aid - they are abused to make it look like someone is better than another.

Assist: To give or render help to; relieve; give help or support to.

Aid: To render assistance.

So is that statement double talk or what?


No double talk - the rest of what you said has nothing to do with the satement I made, so you have taken the words out of context. Labels are abused(whether on purpose or by accident) - you see it everyday - and when people feel that labels must be adhered to is why labels can hinder and is why people are discussing the negative thoughts on labels. Labels are fine as long as you realise that not everyone is going to agree with your ideas on the label.

No One said that labels are wrong - but everyone has different words for different things - cultural, national, religious. What some people are saying is that you shouldn't rely on labels - that communication is the only way of truely defining what a label actually is.


Yes, actually, several people have said that labels are wrong and shouldn't be used. And they certainly have a right to that opinion. But even as they say they don't like labels and refuse to use them, they are using the same labels to redefine what those labels can mean. And W/we do have to rely on the initial labels to have a starting point. Now let's put that aside onced and for all.
W/we are supposed to be the same world, the same culture, the same BDSM religion, if you will. A Catholic is a Catholic, a Lutheran is a Lutheran, and an Atheist is an Atheist. Nobody says what kind of Lutheran are you? Or what kind of Atheist are you? Now A Catholic and a Lutheran are both Christian. So if someone said "Oh, you're a Christian? Do you belong to a particular denomination?", then W/we are further defining, through dialogue, what kind of Christian you are. (How do W/we always seem to draw religious paralells?) When Martin Luther posted his list on the door, he did not say, this is now what the Catholic Church should be or should allow. Ok, I know I am going to catch it on that one. Maybe a bad example. But Luther posted his objections. Now if everyone had gone along with his program, then maybe the Catholic Church would have adapted and become what W/we now know as the Lutheran Church. But that didn't happen. The upshot is that the Lutheran movement began, and they were no longer Catholic! Oops! Didn't stick to the basic tenets here, so now you are no longer part of this community. Doesn't matter how justified you feel. Anyone who agrees, go with Martin. Anybody who is happy with the status quo, stay with us! I am certainly not saying that things should be horribly rigid. W/we are all different. But the basic tenets should still be the same. The basic understanding should still be the same. The common ground should still be the same
Maybe that's a bit extreme, but I hope I have made some sort of point.

quote:

and accept that the gray areas you talk about do have limitations and cannot, under the widest stretch of the imagination, encompass the world. There are some things that are, under no uncertain terms, black and white.


quote:

Yup - said that too.
There are grey areas to everything - only coversation and communication can find the truth.


Remember that the beginnings of conversation and communication have to come from a common ground of understanding. If they don't everyone is talking at cross purposes, and nothing is accomplished. If I say I seek a slave boy, and I have a boy write to Me and say "I want to be your slave, Ma'am. What is TPE?" I can explain it. I am surprised that someone wants to be a slave when they don't understand what "slave" means in the first place, but I'm still willing to explain it. And My POV should be basically the same, within reason, to others in the same community. If it isn't, then the boy is more confused. he tells Me what he has learned in the chatrooms, and what other "chat buddies" have told him. I honestly get this alot. This is why I get frustrated. Like Shifted Jewel stated..."I can have a fuck buddy, right?" Wrong! Wrong in the sense that a slave, in this lifestyle, should not even consider that he would be permitted to have such relationship on the side in the first place. And most certainly not at hs own discretion. If it is a need of his, then perhaps he will find a Mistress who will permit that. But they shouldn't assume that this is automatically part of the deal. Yet they do! Because, slave, and even submissive, has become so loosely defined. So We make out Our profiles and We find Ourselves saying We don't want this, and We don't want that, and then there is another thread started by some cranky submissive boy who says he is sick of all the "negative" profiles. Guess We can't win for losin'.

quote:

To claim to be a “slave”... black and white, you are stating that you are owned and have given yourself, your power, your authority and your rights to make your own decisions to One that has authority and dominance over you...


quote:

For some people, yes - but for an example, I am all those things you just said, but I am not a slave. So no one can call me that and be right.


dark~angel, you identify as a female submissive on this site. If you say you are all those things, but you are personally uncomfortable with the word slave, that is your right. O/others may say to themselves, "she's a slave", and it really doesn't matter. You aren't running around saying that you object to people who want to use that terminology at all. you simply object to it being used as a label for yourself. But W/we do have peoople who think it is romantic to be "owned" and they try to say they are a slave, or they have a slave heart, when they really don't at all. Or their particular relationshiops don't even begin to fit into the accepted norm to claim that relationship. If I get married, I can say I am a wife. If My neighbor down the street just stays with her boyfriend once in a while, I don't think she should be able to say she is a wife. She isn't by the standards set, and the understanding of what a wife is. Is it ok for her to say she is a wife? Yeah, it's really no skin off My nose. Should she run around and tell all her friends that being a wife just means that you have to go spend the night at your boyfriend's house once in a while? No, she shouldn't do that.
I don't personally believe in "online slaves". I believe a meet and greet can begin online. I believe that limits and terms and expectations can begin online. But I cannot have an "online slave". I do not micro-manage, but I don't want a boy 1000 miles away claiming he is doing things for Me. I want him with Me. I am sure there are some online relationships that are serious, and even then I would have to say that of those, most are probably only serious on one side ore the other. And I believe most are doomed to failure unless the long term, or short term, goal is real time. So call Me a cynic!
I dont even care when a boy write to Me and says he is a slave when he isn't owned. I object to the boys who say they are, or say they want to be, but don't have the slightest idea what it entails for Me, and what it is supposed to consistently entail for the vast majority of lifestylers. Now W/we begin to have a large percentage of people who think that slave (currently owned or not) or submissive, for that matter, means anything they want it to mean. Part-time, or online, or every weekend, or just in the bedroom, or heaven forbid, everything except my wallet!
At the end of the day, if I label Myself blonde, you are absolutely right. I could be ash blonde, or platinum blonde, or honey blonde, or golden blonde. But if I really have light brown hair, and I say I am blonde because I adamantly think of Myself as blonde, because I spoke with alot of people who said, "yup, you're blonde!" I am going to confuse a hell of a lot of other people who will look at Me and say, "Hmph, she can think she is blonde all she wants, but that lady has brown hair!" Brown is brown, and blonde is blonde. But a new group could form that says "we believe these shades of brown should also be considered blonde. Join here if you agree. "Go team go! More power to ya!
A dozen is a dozen. It means 12 of something. When bakers began throwing in an extra roll, so people got 13 instead of 12 when they asked for a dozen, the community at large did not say "ok, now a dozen means 13". Instead they came up with a new name. Now W/we can get a baker's dozen.
So let's get more info in profiles, and let's respect what people are looking for. Apparently the word slave and even a description of specific requirements is not enough anymore. I don't want the boys to read My profile, write to Me, and then say "huh?, I'm not that kind o slave, but I think your really hot, so can W/we just do this instead?"
Coming over once a week for some CBT does not make you My slave or a slave at all, IMO. That's not even being a submissive. That's a client, who better get his wallet out. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. I just have a different relationship with them. And I certainly prefer one over the other.

*Edited because I always seem to screw up the html when I am trying to quote!





< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 5/30/2005 6:03:01 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.102