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RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 5:18:06 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

S/M; Sadomasochism; Sex that involves adopting fantasy roles, using implements to produce stress or erotic pain, physical restraint, or other techniques to create a consentual exchange of power between the participants.
(Sensuous Magic, Patrick Califia, Cleis Press, 2001)

I just wished to use your quote as an example. Sadiomasochism is a form of sexual gratification via the medium of pain - THATS how the world outside wiitwd 'label's it. So when people see those words outside of wiitwd - then they don't see a loving man who practises consensually pain on a sub or slave - they see a man who doesn;t care and gets off on putting someone in pain.

Is that right? Of course it isn't - and to a certain extent we care that we are misunderstood in such a sense. But we say - hey - thats our choice. No one has the right to tell us we are wrong.

Yet people who move for exact definitions are doing the same thing that is being done to them.

You can't force anyone into understanding that the definition you gave is better than the definition that sits in websters or oxfords thats been used for hundreds of years. The thing is, yes, words change and evolve... and it may well happen that the usage of the words will change how you want them to. But right now, you have to accept that what is ok for you - is different for another and thats what BDSM is really about.

Personal choice, discovery and freedom.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ScooterTrash)

Post #: 21

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 5:23:09 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:

W/we are saying that there should be basic ideas of what the definitions are for Bondage, flogging, CBT, slave, submissive, Dominant, et al. Then it can be expanded upon, or decreased according to an individuals comfort level.

I dont deny that. What people seen to have difficulty in understanding however is that words like 'whip, bondage, CBT, flogging etc' are defined in BDSM as they are outside of wiitwd. But words like submissive and dominant do not and that slave has many definitions. And its fighting a losing battle demanding we use these terms when they don't exist in outside of wiitwd. We can't make up our own words and expect people who dont understand to just follow. They will evolve at their own pace. But if people don't agree with your definition, doesn't make them less of a person and the condecending comments placed on some people in the BDSM community is just what we are campaigner against in the vanilla culture.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 22

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 5:46:05 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

Where does this end, who is the ultimate authority?

It lays with the dominant of the relationship. Even in a single scene.
If a person is not in a relationship then they are their own authority.
The only person in authority is the person who has the submission or service at that moment. And if a person is serving/submitting/dominanting their own life - then its them.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ScooterTrash)

Post #: 23

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 7:00:13 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

I, for One, have not said that I require or insist on any exact definitions. But "basic" definitions should be understood and W/we should be consistent. I do not ever feel it is My place to judge your relationship with Demon. That is worked out in Y/your own way.
But when I see people who state proudly they are slave, and they are owned, yet they see the owners once a week, or once a month, and get to have other relationships (at their own discretion) on the side, and pretty much do what they want when they want, other than the little bit of time they may spend in the actual presence of the Owner. I do honestly feel that this is not a typical M/s relationship. They may call it M/s all they want. And I don't take away their right to say they have this relationship and this is how it works for them. I do take issue with the fact that this should be loudly publicized and no acknowledgement of the fact that many (and I do mean many) do not consider this typical. It is acceptable, and they have a right to it, but it is not typical. So now W/we have alot of newbies who say to Me, for instance, "well, what do you mean I can't have a girlriend?", what do you mean I can't for out with my friends on Friday night"? Because now these newbies are under the impression that slave can mean a a part time, when the spirit moves the Owner and when the spirit moves the slave. They think this is typical! Why? Because they read it on message boards and they talked about it in chatrooms. Oh boy, this is fun! Can't wait to become a slave!
Yes, there are definitions in the widely accepted dictionaries for the other tools W/we use. W/we must defer to the well-known BDSM books and O/our years of experience to understand the basic concepts in WIITWD of submissive, slave, switch, Dominant. And those definitions are out there. And they are pretty damn consistent! I see all of that being thrown away now, and a general free-for-all happening instead. And it is up to U/us to keep up the tradition of what the basic meanings of WIITWD and educate the newcomers.
I wouldn't be real happy if I had children attending school, and because one teacher suddenly decided the 2+2 = 5, My child came home and said, "but Mom, the teacher said it is so, and the teacher has a college degree". I would go to that teacher and tell her to explain to Me why 2+2 = 5. And if s/he said, "because I say so, and that is what I think is right and it works for me!" I would be pretty pissed off. So if you want to believe 2+2 = 5 that is your right. But don't try to shove it down everybody's throat. Don't insist that is the correct answer, because you and whoever else decided it would work just as well and be acceptable to you! It isn't the typical answer!
I am sorry to politely disagree, but I have read too many threads, and it worries Me that lots of people are reading these threads, supposedly for educational purposes, and all they are learning is that they can in fact, have it their way. All they have to do is find a Dominant who is willing to go along with this new and improved program. Instead, I feel they should be looking for a Dominant who is compatible in their own area of interests and commitment level. To call oneself a slave, or even a submissive, just because you like the sound of being owned or having someone to submit to on an occasonal basis, is not being a slave or a submissive in WIITWD. It is supposed to mean more than that. Otherwise, IMO, you are a bottom, or a bedroom slave, or a do me boy.
Has it ever occured to A/anyone that the reason W/we have so many unhappy boys whining all the time, is because they really don't have the first concept of what being a slave, or being a submissive or engaging in a TPE relationship really means? Why don't they? It seems they have all spent hundreds of hours reading and participating on message boards, and cybering away in chatrooms. Could it be that they are never exposed to the basics of this lifetyle in the first place? I feel a certain responsibilitiy in how I project Myself. I do train boys, and always it is in the basics with the caveat that all Dominas do not have the same likes, dislikes, preferences in service, etc. But the basics still hold true. Or they should! If W/we throw them away, why bother to have a community at all? A community is held together by mutual understanding and support of the same basic idea and belief. Now W/we have no more basic ideas? No common belief?
JMO.

*Disclaimer* I am not referring above to any D/s or M/s partners I know of on this site and others, who live apart for particular reasons. I can see the reality of those relationships and how seriously they take their responsibilities and their place in the relationship whether together or apart.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 5/27/2005 7:13:47 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 24

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/27/2005 7:29:23 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
As usual, there's a false set of alternatives here: either words mean something eternal, immutable, and universally understandable--or else words mean nothing at all and no communication is possible.

It should be pretty obvious that the real world exists somewhere between those asinine extremes.
Lam

I didn't speak of extremes; I said words mean something to me and most people who use language as a matter of fact.
For the purposes of this thread it was stated that specific words have fairly commonly understood meanings within this lifestyle and among peple living it... My accepting that premise makes me asinine to you, oh well, I'll have to find a way to live with myself.

M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 25

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 4:07:42 AM

darkinshadows

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Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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M'Lady Gold - I have read your posts - and maybe my words arent coming out how I want them to so you can understand my point. But as I read your words - I think we believe in the same concluesions. Just coming at it from different points is all.

But I still stand by my thought that its not anyones right to tell someone 'they aren't this or that' and thats what happens. Yes, there are standards. But there are many grey areas. Sure - use the standards - but with the understanding that there are sections of diversity.

I am forever seeing the description of a slave as 'owned property' - but if thats simply the case, then no one can claim to be a slave or even have one. But what it comes down to is that what ' being owned' is in an individuals mind. Thats why the term 'slave' can seem either so laughable or so dangerous to people outside of wiitwd.

If people want black and white, then there is plenty of that in the world already.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 26

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 5:51:30 AM

mistoferin

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Joined: 10/27/2004
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The thing that amazes me in reading through all of these threads is that there are two fairly distinct groups here, those who recognize commonly accepted terms and standards and those who don't. The group that doesn't has been all over these boards touting tolerance and acceptance while in reality they have been anything BUT tolerant and accepting of the group that does.

Goddess Dusty Gold expressed that she felt that the way of life that we have come to believe in, understand and love is being attacked and belittled. There are many more of us out here who feel exactly the same. Lily made a very interesting point also. I had never really looked at it from that angle before but she is quite right....this is NOT a discussion that gets bantered about at munches, events, play parties or even in personal conversations for the most part in the real life scene....it does seem to be a primarily online argument. Interesting....

No one has said that there have to be EXACT anythings but BASICS would be nice. If you join your local cat and dog club, you should be able to go in and at least declare if you are a cat or a dog. Now if you want to expand from there and say you are a dog who is litter box trained or a cat who loves to play fetch....more power to you. At least you have identified in the most basic sense though so that others can understand where you are coming from. I fully understand that some wish to express their own individuality but if you buy a dog and decide to call it an iguana because you have always wanted an iguana...so to you for all intents and purposes it IS an iguana, don't expect to walk it down the street and have others believe it's an iguana.

Yes we DO have the right to tell someone that they are not what they claim according to the commonly recognized standards or terms. If they have the right to say they are such then we most certainly have the right to say they aren't. Rights go both ways.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ScooterTrash)

Post #: 27

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 6:50:34 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yeah, I have to say, I've always wondered: Why would anyone flee the tyranny of normal sexuality--only to nestle in a world of conformity?

My sentiments exactly LaM - I label myself a Domme here because it's easier. But in essence, I am a woman who is dominant, not a lifestyle Domme. There is a huge difference in my eyes.

I have resisted associating myself with a lifestyle, prefering wiitwd because, really, truly, the only thing that I have in common with the majority of the people on this site is that I like things kinky.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 28

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 7:05:45 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:

S/M; Sadomasochism; Sex that involves adopting fantasy roles, using implements to produce stress or erotic pain, physical restraint, or other techniques to create a consentual exchange of power between the participants.
(Sensuous Magic, Patrick Califia, Cleis Press, 2001)

I just wished to use your quote as an example. Sadiomasochism is a form of sexual gratification via the medium of pain - THATS how the world outside wiitwd 'label's it. So when people see those words outside of wiitwd - then they don't see a loving man who practises consensually pain on a sub or slave - they see a man who doesn;t care and gets off on putting someone in pain.

Actually, in the case of Pat Califia, it is a woman, a hard core S&M dyke, who hurts women. I don't know how she practices S&M in her own life, but it is quite extreme in her books, and hot!

You see angel, I don't necessarily see S&M as "a loving man who practices consensually pain on a sub or slave" neither. Of course I see the potential for that but it doesn't fit within my personal schema because for one, I'm a woman doing the hurting to other women and to men and second I don't always practice S&M within the boundaries of D/s and never within the boundaries of M/s (as M/s is not my thing).

I totally get what you are saying angel and my response to you is in support of that. Though we like to be able to find common ground and common terms to communicate with—and for the record, I hold precise language in very high regards—we need to accept that we will all throw our own spin on it and all have our perceptions and interpretations. The world is not black & white. If we keep trying to see it in black & white terms, we will be eternally frustrated. I don’t get overly concerned about people’s self-labeling so therefore I have a very low level of frustration.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 29

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 7:15:01 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
The thing that amazes me in reading through all of these threads is that there are two fairly distinct groups here, those who recognize commonly accepted terms and standards and those who don't. The group that doesn't has been all over these boards touting tolerance and acceptance while in reality they have been anything BUT tolerant and accepting of the group that does.

I actually do respect people's need to put very strict terms on what it is that they do. That is why I don't call myself a BDSMer or a Lifestyler, that is why I don't consider myself M/s, that is why I simply express that I am a kinky dominant bitch. That is not a label I give myself. That is how the others and I perceive my behaviour and my actions. I feel no need to conform to anyone else's definition of things.

quote:

Lily made a very interesting point also. I had never really looked at it from that angle before but she is quite right....this is NOT a discussion that gets bantered about at munches, events, play parties or even in personal conversations for the most part in the real life scene....it does seem to be a primarily online argument. Interesting....

I won't claim to be an expert because I don't hang out the public scene very much, but rather live this part of my life on a much more private and intimate level, but I believe that the reason this is not talked about in RL is because the RL scene is not a discussion board, whereas this is. That is, that in RL, WIITWD is action based whereas here online it is reflection based. That said, I do think we get hooked up too much on definitions here.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 30

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 8:58:53 AM

stef

Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Actually, in the case of Pat Califia, it is a woman, a hard core S&M dyke, who hurts women.

Not for several years now. http://www.patrickcalifia.com/

quote:

I don't know how she practices S&M in her own life, but it is quite extreme in her books, and hot!

I'm sure Patrick would prefer to be referred to as 'he.'

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 31

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 12:10:19 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Actually, in the case of Pat Califia, it is a woman, a hard core S&M dyke, who hurts women.

Not for several years now. http://www.patrickcalifia.com/

Thanks for the update stef!

Back in the day when I read Pat, he was she—the unofficial poster dyke for lesbian S&M. Man how “Doc & Fluff” made me purr!

Good for him! But therein lies another example of how the things cannot be pinned down to a finite definition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

quote:

I don't know how she practices S&M in her own life, but it is quite extreme in her books, and hot!

I'm sure Patrick would prefer to be referred to as 'he.'

~stef

And you can be sure that as of this moment I always will. You know me well enough stef to know that I always respect how someone wishes to be referred to as.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to stef)

Post #: 32

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 12:22:02 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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Oh, come on. BOTH groups have been all over these boards.

The position of one group seems to be that in the good old days all these concepts were effortlessly understood by lifestylers who "lived this every day of their life," and that with the advent of the internet, immorality, and the breakdown of the American family all kinds of neophytes are entering the BDSM world and trampling on well established conventions. And this is all a Really Bad Thing--I confess I'm not sure I understand why, but some of it has to do with the idea that BDSM is dangerous, and people who don't know The Way It Works are apt to hurt somebody.

As you can tell, I belong to the other group. I don't know whether I qualify as an old-fashioned or a new-fashioned lifestyler: I've been in the life since I was 20, but I wasn't born when they erected Stonehenge. I certainly don't believe "true" d/s is limited to the munch, play-party, and protocol clique. Dominance and submission, sadism and masochism, are WHAT YOU ARE--no more and no less. My d isn't going to be the same as anyone else's d, and I don't expect other people's s to be one-size-fits-all, either. I've been firm about rejecting this plea for commonly accepted definitions for two reasons: first, they just don't work for me; and second--the more important reason--all these rigid definitions are likely to be chilling for neophytes, who are going to think that if they don't mesh with Established Usage, their feelings aren't normal or genuine. And that's the most dangerous outcome of all.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

The thing that amazes me in reading through all of these threads is that there are two fairly distinct groups here, those who recognize commonly accepted terms and standards and those who don't. The group that doesn't has been all over these boards touting tolerance and acceptance while in reality they have been anything BUT tolerant and accepting of the group that does.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 33

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 1:56:30 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Lam, again, I reiterate, A/all have the right to define their relationships they way they choose and according to their own comfort levels. I may choose to disagree that one is in a typically understood M/s relationship when they only see their Master or Mistress on a semi-regular basis. What I am understanding is this is their contract (of they bothered with a contract at all). "Here is your collar. I now own you. I command that you be at My house every Sunday morning to bring Me breakfast in bed and then you will bare your bottom for a good spanking. From Monday through Saturday you can make whatever plans you like, and do whatever you want, and that inlcudes any other relationships on the side, you may choose to have. Don't forget I own you now, so I will see you every Sunday! sign here."
When that is put forth over and over as the typical and most defnitely acceptable M/s relationship, then newbies get the impression this is what is is about. It is easy. Find someone you like, and you can still have your own life most of the time. I have to draw the conclusion that this is why I get so many boys who write to Me and really don't have a good concept of what this normally is about. I am not even one of the extremely strict Ladies out there. I seem to get one extreme or the other. Either the boy expects and tries to convince Me that he wants to be chained up in a storage shed (in the Arizona heat, I am sure I am not even going to consider that!) or they just want to submit when they have some free time. I get offered that alot. ALOT! And the number of cyber relationships out there have been poo-poohed many times on this board! What is the difference between the cyber Dom/mes and the cyber slaves, who meet up in a chatroom once in a while, and supposedly have the M/s relationship happening. Well, this is where all the newbies are learning. So maybe it is time to say there are in fact, two different camps. One is for a more casual style of M/s which sometimes spills over into part/time real life, and the other is "perhaps W/we meet online, but the reality is that ownership is ownership is ownership. 24/7. And this online meeting is with a view to real life live-in." And it is a meeting. It is not cyber-domination. I don't want to play around online, and I get bugged by all the boys who don't understand why this isn't a perfectly acceptable relationship for Me. Suddenly I am the odd One out! That makes Me wonder!
Even a live-out boy is a live out submissive in training (For Me). He is not a slave. Any boy who applies to Me for a live-in position needs to be aware that I only take slaves to live-in. Not submissives. It makes it hard when there isn't even a good basic understanding of what being a slave, and being "owned propety" means in the first place. Because, now, it seems, anyone can be a slave. All you have to do is say that you are one, and that you have a Master or a Mistress. There are plenty of people out there who are willing to do it this way. It's a great way to spice up your weeknds and make yourself feel good. I am not willing to do it this way. It is not enough for Me. And it distresses Me to watch things evolve so that now this is becoming the accepted norm.
I have talked to many boys who seem puzzled by alot. They say they have been collared several times.
When I ask how have they been collared before, they say, "well, She just told Me I was collared, and I had to do what She said."
"Then why didn't it work out?" I ask.
"Oh, she got busy, and got a new job, and one of her kids got into trouble, so she didn't have time anymore", or other such reasons.
So I begin to explain the responsibilities of being a live-in and considering a collar, and all it entails.
"Oh, I am not ready for that. I can't do that. Can't W/we just chat online and you make Me do some things?"
So you are right. I try to stay out of these sorts of debates as much as possible, but perhaps I am particulary sensitive to the fact that this one has been going on for so long on several different threads now. It really directly affects Me. I am dealing daily with the fallout of these attitudes.
Oh, the internet! Ya gotta love it!

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 5/28/2005 2:20:47 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 34

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 3:21:58 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
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I really don't see anyone suggesting that what you describe is "the typical relationship." I'm saying that there IS no "typical relationship."

What I do see, however, is a group that has a pretty narrow view of what normal and standard BDSM is supposed to be, and goes through a lot of hand-wringing when others deny those norms and standards. Doesn't this whole discussion just boil down to a question of whose d/s is truer? I've never understood what people get out of trying to show that theirs is better.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

"Here is your collar. I now own you. I command that you be at My house every Sunday morning to bring Me breakfast in bed and then you will bare your bottom for a good spanking. From Monday through Saturday you can make whatever plans you like, and do whatever you want, and that inlcudes any other relationships on the side, you may choose to have. Don't forget I own you now, so I will see you every Sunday! sign here."
When that is put forth over and over as the typical and most defnitely acceptable M/s relationship, then newbies get the impression this is what is is about.

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 35

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 3:52:33 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

I don't say Mine is better and I don't say Mine is truer. I say Mine is the more traditional expectations of what D/s used to be about, basically.
Now it seems it can be anything from online to part time to 24/7 live-in. I accept others who want it their way. I get feedback often (from submissive boys!) telling Me I am wrong, because I want a more traditional relationship with firm controls and ownership. So boys try to tell Me that they really want this, but they want it at their convenience. And they can't figure out why I am not going to accept this. So I tell them to go for it. There are plenty of Ladies online who will do it their way. Get together for a Power Exchange once or twice a week. Maybe the traditional concepts are becoming obsolete because it it is easier to go for a relationship that doesn't require so much commitment. On either side. And it seems those relationship abound, so why bother with something more serious? They will continue to take a stab at Me, because maybe I will change My mind, but when I don't, oh well, there is always the next Domina on the list.
I just ask the questions, where do these people and these attitudes come from in the first place? And why are there so many of them? I think I know, and I believe I have already stated where I think these attitudes come from. Everyone else has to make their own decisons.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 36

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 6:22:17 PM

MemphisDsCouple

Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:

S/M; Sadomasochism; Sex that involves adopting fantasy roles, using implements to produce stress or erotic pain, physical restraint, or other techniques to create a consentual exchange of power between the participants.
(Sensuous Magic, Patrick Califia, Cleis Press, 2001)

I just wished to use your quote as an example. Sadiomasochism is a form of sexual gratification via the medium of pain - THATS how the world outside wiitwd 'label's it.

ummmm...... not really....... We could have called ourselves Consensual Pain Lovers. But the terminology I find in profiles is "sadist" and/or "masochist".

Actually, what happened is that kinksters adopted that terminology (sadism/masochism) from psychological terminology to describe themselves/ourselves. We didn't/don't have to describe ourselves as sadists and/or masochists. But we choose to. And now, after becoming one of the people who chose that terminology some want to rebel against the very terminology they chose! Some want to call s&m an unjustified "label". Some want to have the readers and thinkers among us believe there is a vast conspiracy of some sort designed to "label" those of us who practice s&m. Not so. That argument makes no sense. Think about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

So when people see those words outside of wiitwd - then they don't see a loving man who practises consensually pain on a sub or slave - they see a man who doesn;t care and gets off on putting someone in pain.

ummmmm..... somehow..... let's think...... does the fact of consensuality create caring? No. The first is completely unrelated to the conclusion, so the conclusion just plain makes no sense.

And as to "gets off on putting someone in pain". Well...... some of the people who come to cm do that!!!! So????

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Yet people who move for exact definitions are doing the same thing that is being done to them.

Nothing is "being done to them". There is no conspiracy. There are only common sense suggestions that we be able to understand what each other is saying when we speak, or write, words to each other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

You can't force anyone into understanding that the definition you gave is better than the definition that sits in websters or oxfords thats been used for hundreds of years. The thing is, yes, words change and evolve... and it may well happen that the usage of the words will change how you want them to. But right now, you have to accept that what is ok for you - is different for another and thats what BDSM is really about.

No. That is not what BDSM is about. BDSM is about Bondage, Discipline, Sadism and Masochism.

The Libertarian Group is down the hall. And the Anarchy Group meets every third Saturday in the building next door. But the BDSM'ers - they're right here and what they are all about is Bondage, Discipline, Sadism and Masochism. They intermingle freely and openly with the D&S Group (Dominance and Submission) because the two groups have a lot in common and most members belong to both groups anyway. This is collarme.com, not imokyoureok.com

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I am forever seeing the description of a slave as 'owned property' - but if thats simply the case, then no one can claim to be a slave or even have one.

This conclusion is an error both of logic and of fact. The definition cited is fine. The definition does not precluce someone being or owning a slave. The conclusion is erroneous on all counts.

< Message edited by MemphisDsCouple -- 5/28/2005 6:37:43 PM >

_____________________________

B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 37

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 6:36:51 PM

MemphisDsCouple

Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

all these rigid definitions are likely to be chilling for neophytes, who are going to think that if they don't mesh with Established Usage, their feelings aren't normal or genuine. And that's the most dangerous outcome of all.

No.

9.9 of every 10 "neophytes" I've ever run across are *seeking* definitions - as well as other new knowledge. They say, "what am I? What are these feelings and urges within me?" To simply say to them, "hey - you are what you are" is the pinnacle of ridiculous confusion. Sounds like some Tibetan monk being mystical with an altar boy. If the neophyte says, "I have dreams of being whipped," we need to be able to say, "that's called masochism. It's a pretty widely held fantasy. You're ok. There is nothing wrong with you." At which point, all the neophytes I've ever talked to were reassured *because* terminology exists to describe what they are feeling and searching for. They also are just as happy as a puppy when they find out there is some terminology that will let them talk to other people (communicate!) about the things they feel!

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 38

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 6:38:49 PM

MemphisDsCouple

Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline

I have no clue how that damn font got into my first post. And it won't edit out. My apologies to readers.

_____________________________

B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)

(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)

Post #: 39

RE: Lifestyle words, terms, phrases & acronyms - 5/28/2005 6:52:23 PM

MemphisDsCouple

Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline

I note that a considerable number of the writers who find fault with being able to converse using terminology that means pretty much the same thing to each of us feel they are being somehow excluded by something. The reader this (these) thread(s) may be interested in reading, "Aspiring to Slavery", here:

http://www.collarme.com/forum/m_53926/mpage_1/key_slavery/tm.htm#54177

(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)

Post #: 40

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