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RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 7:29:46 PM

uwinceismile

Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

i am fully aware that we may disagree. in fact, being a conservative republican doesnt exactly win me invites to high end get togethers round these parts ;)
but i dont believe that i have stated my case as fact. simply my opinion, and how i see and feel about this topic.
and i for one appreciate the way you articulate your thoghts philo. i honestly do. we can disagree, and still be amicable :)
how does it go???
we can agree,,,,to disagree :)
or is it.....
reasonable people can disagree reasonably :)
thank u for your thoughts

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 21

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 7:32:18 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

reasonable people can disagree reasonably :)

....i like this one best

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 22

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 8:16:50 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

How can you still have faith in them after all the documented evidence of how they've fucked things up?

The Gitmo interrogators aren't even in the Armed Forces. They're hired contractors. Did you know that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

but i do have faith in the powers at be who have been trained in such matters.

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 23

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 8:33:13 PM

Arpig

Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline

In my opinion, captured "enemy combatants" would be prisoners of war, would they not? And I do believe there are some rather strict rules regarding the treatment of prisoners of war, regardless of what they may or may not have done prior to their capture.

_____________________________

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(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 24

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 8:39:47 PM

uwinceismile

Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

l&m,
im sure they have made mistakes. abu graib was as messed up as it could of been,. not only did the enlisted play mind games and worse, i believe that higher up were aware, and did nothing to either stop them, or maybe even put them up to it in a round about way. i understand that.i dont condone that. ever! and i also believe that there was a cover up.but i do believe that torturing enemy combatants is not a tool we should take off the table.
i am not asking you to agree with me.hell, at this rate, i dont expect much but to be called names etc .thats a tactic used often , but seldom works. our enemy depends on the fact that we are a free and open society. and they fully expect us to quibble among ourselves. and they know that we will slowly weaken ourselves thru this process.
thier culture is very old . in comparison, we are infantile. they see squirmeshes in centuries.... we view them as news bites :(
we expect war to be clean,and over by the time the 11 oclock news ends. they are counting on this. they see thier fight with us as lasting not decades, but centuries if it has to. and they are prepared to go the distance. are we? as a nation, are we prepared to fight for our existanece for the forseeable future?
i believe that my 10 and 13 yr old daughters will be at war just as we are now. and i believe that my unborn grandchildren will also don the uniform of this country, and will be fighting terrerorist in 30-35 yrs..... i wish it didnt have to be that way, but i believe it to be true.
im not a war mongerer..... i would much rather see an equitable solution worked out. but i dont see that happening either. they hate us, they hate our way of life, they hate our freedom ,,,,not only our freedom of religion, but all of our freedoms. they see us as weak and lazy, with no stomach for what has to be done.....and i fear they are half right.im not sure the american people have the backbone as a whole to fight this battle as it needs to be fought. war is war! no time outs,, no saying "well, if u dont aim for our heads, we wont aim for yours"..
its a dirty business, and if we wish to prevail, (and i wish for us to) then we have to be willing to get dirty .

ok,,,nuff from me. ive said my peace. i certainly dont expect many to agree.but if you can, please keep the name calling to a low roar, it doesnt make ur argument stronger,and frankly, it demeans you more then i .
god bless

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 25

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:09:25 PM

uwinceismile

Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

hey arpig,
i couldnt agree more to be honest with you. and we have always followed that in a traditional war. (one nation declaring war on another nation)
unfortunately, we are not fighting a soviergn nation. as we all know, and frankly i think this admins (bush"s) desire to use that loophole to its advantage is not the best descision.
but in all honesty, it has shown our enemy, that we will fight them in a way they werent expecting. which im greatful for. because they certainly are not holding themselves up to the geneva conventions. i thinks its a sad reality in this era we have been thrown into, but we have to adapt and overcome.

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 26

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:13:43 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

lordandmaster,,,,. great self title btw,
u are correct, i did mistype and place gitmo where i should of typed abu graib.....
by i dont feel any differently. and ur attempt at belittling, and half assed attempt at intimidating is laffable at best.

From what I understand, the person who came up with the procedures at GITMO was re-assigned to Abu-Grahib.

Imagine that?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 27

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:15:42 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

......but i do believe that torturing enemy combatants is not a tool we should take off the table.

......while i don't agree with the quoted portion, i have to admit that it is an arguable position morally. If we are talking 'enemy combatents' then there it is arguable that by the choice of becoming soldiers they are in harms way, the specific vector of harm is kinda irrelevant. However, even if one concedes the point, then a concern has to be raised about whether or not the inhabitants of Gitmo really are enemy combatents. The methods that were used to round them up were varied and some more reliable than others. Surely the only way to know which were real enemy combatents and which were unlucky bystanders is to hold trials. Evidence must be tested. To ignore that simple element of justice is to give up any right to be considered just.

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 28

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:16:33 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

hey arpig,
i couldnt agree more to be honest with you. and we have always followed that in a traditional war. (one nation declaring war on another nation)
unfortunately, we are not fighting a soviergn nation. as we all know, and frankly i think this admins (bush"s) desire to use that loophole to its advantage is not the best descision.
but in all honesty, it has shown our enemy, that we will fight them in a way they werent expecting. which im greatful for. because they certainly are not holding themselves up to the geneva conventions. i thinks its a sad reality in this era we have been thrown into, but we have to adapt and overcome.

According to the Constitution and Laws of the United States --- WE ARE NOT AT WAR.

Try to get the basic facts correct.

Here's the whole thing with the Constitution. It tells the FEDERAL GOV'T what they may do.

If you REALLY WANT the Federal Gov't to LAWFULLY do what it's doing --- AMEND THE CONSTITUTION.

Get rid of that pesky "Due Process" and "Equal Protection under the Law".

Get rid of the Right to be Secure in your Person, Papers, and Correspondence.

And while you're at it, break out the Swastikas.

Remember, Hitler didn't seize power, he was elected.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 6/26/2007 9:17:13 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 29

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:25:38 PM

uwinceismile

Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

no worries fargle,,,what ever we are embroiled in,,im sure that you can fix it with 300 million dolars rofl....(btw fargle,,,re read what i wrote my friend, i called them our enemy, i didnt say we were at war) that alone is the very essence of the punch that bush pulled to be able to hold these folks, and treat them as we have.
and philo, once again we tend to agree, i dont appreciate all of this admins choices, i believe that those folks should have thier day in court as well.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 30

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:26:16 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

If say, your participation in this forum raised a Red Flag in some computer somewhere.

And the Computer says, "Enemy". ( Or, let's say, someone who doesn't like you denounces you... )

Should you just be picked up off the street, and held for years and years? And tortured, because someone believes you *might* know *something* useful?

After all, you are just one person, and there may be 100,000 at risk, maybe, IF you *are* an Enemy in the first place.

But you're not an Enemy.

Who do you tell? No one will listen to you. You have no Lawyer. You are not Charged. You have no Arraignment. There is no Court.

If you don't provide the information you don't have, what should they do to make you talk?

To MAYBE save 100,000 people, what is the life of a SECOND person.

TWO people is less than 100,000. It's "Worth It", isn't it?

So they snatch your wife off the street, and tell you they'll rape her if you don't tell them what you know.

But you don't know anything.

So after you watch the rape, and sodomy, they torture her.

Still you cannot talk,

So she is killed in front of you.

Will you tell them what you know yet?

Well, What's THREE PEOPLE to *possibly* save 100,000?

So they snatch your oldest daughter off the street...

And they'll do to her, what they did to her mother if you don't tell them what you know.

But you don't know anything, do you?

Lather, Rinse, Repeat. After all, what's FOUR or FIVE lives?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 31

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:28:52 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

no worries fargle,,,what ever we are embroiled in,,im sure that you can fix it with 300 million dolars rofl....(btw fargle,,,re read what i wrote my friend, i called them our enemy, i didnt say we were at war) that alone is the very essence of the punch that bush pulled to be able to hold these folks, and treat them as we have.
and philo, once again we tend to agree, i dont appreciate all of this admins choices, i believe that those folks should have thier day in court as well.

I must have mis-interpreted this:

quote:

i believe that my 10 and 13 yr old daughters will be at war just as we are now.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 32

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:35:15 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Yes, Arpig, you are correct.

Begin quoted text -

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War

Adopted on 12 August 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of

International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War, held in Geneva

from 21 April to 12 August, 1949

entry into force 21 October 1950

GENERAL PROTECTION OF PRISONERS OF WAR

Article 12

Prisoners of war are in the hands of the enemy Power, but not of the individuals or military units who have captured them. Irrespective of the individual responsibilities that may exist, the Detaining Power is responsible for the treatment given them.

Prisoners of war may only be transferred by the Detaining Power to a Power which is a party to the Convention and after the Detaining Power has satisfied itself of the willingness and ability of such transferee Power to apply the Convention. When prisoners of war are transferred under such circumstances, responsibility for the application of the Convention rests on the Power accepting them while they are in its custody.

Nevertheless if that Power fails to carry out the provisions of the Convention in any important respect, the Power by whom the prisoners of war were transferred shall, upon being notified by the Protecting Power, take effective measures to correct the situation or shall request the return of the prisoners of war. Such requests must be complied with.

Article 13

Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.

Article 14

Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour. Women shall be treated with all the regard due to their sex and shall in all cases benefit by treatment as favourable as that granted to men. Prisoners of war shall retain the full civil capacity which they enjoyed at the time of their capture. The Detaining Power may not restrict the exercise, either within or without its own territory, of the rights such capacity confers except in so far as the captivity requires.

Article 15

The Power detaining prisoners of war shall be bound to provide free of charge for their maintenance and for the medical attention required by their state of health.

Article 16

Taking into consideration the provisions of the present Convention relating to rank and sex, and subject to any privileged treatment which may be accorded to them by reason of their state of health, age or professional qualifications, all prisoners of war shall be treated alike by the Detaining Power, without any adverse distinction based on race, nationality, religious belief or political opinions, or any other distinction founded on similar criteria.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
In my opinion, captured "enemy combatants" would be prisoners of war, would they not? And I do believe there are some rather strict rules regarding the treatment of prisoners of war, regardless of what they may or may not have done prior to their capture.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 33

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:36:16 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

hey arpig,
i couldnt agree more to be honest with you. and we have always followed that in a traditional war. (one nation declaring war on another nation)
unfortunately, we are not fighting a soviergn nation. as we all know, and frankly i think this admins (bush"s) desire to use that loophole to its advantage is not the best descision.
but in all honesty, it has shown our enemy, that we will fight them in a way they werent expecting. which im greatful for. because they certainly are not holding themselves up to the geneva conventions. i thinks its a sad reality in this era we have been thrown into, but we have to adapt and overcome.

what enemy? Muslim? alqaeda? the cia's creation? the 19 hijackers? of which 1/2 are alive and welll? who the fuck is the enemy? anyone we decide to ATTACK?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 34

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:41:25 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Yes, Arpig, you are correct.

Begin quoted text -

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War

Adopted on 12 August 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of

International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War, held in Geneva

from 21 April to 12 August, 1949

entry into force 21 October 1950

GENERAL PROTECTION OF PRISONERS OF WAR

Article 12

Prisoners of war are in the hands of the enemy Power, but not of the individuals or military units who have captured them. Irrespective of the individual responsibilities that may exist, the Detaining Power is responsible for the treatment given them.

Prisoners of war may only be transferred by the Detaining Power to a Power which is a party to the Convention and after the Detaining Power has satisfied itself of the willingness and ability of such transferee Power to apply the Convention. When prisoners of war are transferred under such circumstances, responsibility for the application of the Convention rests on the Power accepting them while they are in its custody.

Nevertheless if that Power fails to carry out the provisions of the Convention in any important respect, the Power by whom the prisoners of war were transferred shall, upon being notified by the Protecting Power, take effective measures to correct the situation or shall request the return of the prisoners of war. Such requests must be complied with.

Article 13

Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.

Article 14

Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour. Women shall be treated with all the regard due to their sex and shall in all cases benefit by treatment as favourable as that granted to men. Prisoners of war shall retain the full civil capacity which they enjoyed at the time of their capture. The Detaining Power may not restrict the exercise, either within or without its own territory, of the rights such capacity confers except in so far as the captivity requires.

Article 15

The Power detaining prisoners of war shall be bound to provide free of charge for their maintenance and for the medical attention required by their state of health.

Article 16

Taking into consideration the provisions of the present Convention relating to rank and sex, and subject to any privileged treatment which may be accorded to them by reason of their state of health, age or professional qualifications, all prisoners of war shall be treated alike by the Detaining Power, without any adverse distinction based on race, nationality, religious belief or political opinions, or any other distinction founded on similar criteria.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
In my opinion, captured "enemy combatants" would be prisoners of war, would they not? And I do believe there are some rather strict rules regarding the treatment of prisoners of war, regardless of what they may or may not have done prior to their capture.

yah but war criminals dont need to play by the rules

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 35

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:41:50 PM

uwinceismile

Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

u dont know who our enemy is?(shakes head ruefully)
then i dont believe i could ever explain it to you my friend

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 36

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:43:41 PM

uwinceismile

Posts: 365
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

rofl,,,ya gotta love the haters :)
gnite good people
once again,,the koolaid is being served in the back of the room ;)

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 37

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:44:04 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

u dont know who our enemy is?(shakes head ruefully)
then i dont believe i could ever explain it to you my friend

well we have several enemies. we have those who destroy our constitution.

my question remains who is our enemy? anyone we decide to attack?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 38

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:45:12 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

unfortunately, we are not fighting a soviergn nation.

True. We decapitated them first and replaced their government with a puppet government that is unable to cope with the citizenry forced to accept them at gunpoint.

quote:

as we all know,

Please do not presume to tell me what I know.

The current puppet government installed at the behest of the Bush administration's idiocy is not technically a duly elected or appointed government of Iraq.

While we could discuss the legitimacy of the construct (from British occupation) of the nation state of Iraq, going back 80 years or so has limited relevance to what is going on.

quote:

is not the best descision.

What the hell.

Im up for a bit of humor.

Please clarify exactly what IS Bush's best decision?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 39

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:45:29 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

rofl,,,ya gotta love the haters :)
gnite good people
once again,,the koolaid is being served in the back of the room ;)

sleep well and when you come back answer my question :)

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 40

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