RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture.

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture.

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture.

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/26/2007 9:54:01 PM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline

Why are we even debating with a guy who can spell as well as Bush speaks?

He actually answered a direct question with "if you don't know, I won't tell you."

He has not answered all too many salient points, and has not even read the article in question.

He started off thinking Gitmo is Abu Ghraib, then couldn't even spell it.

I think I know the enemy in this debate, and it talks with a drawl.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 41

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 12:01:28 AM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

benji! So good to see you. How is life in Toronto?

PS - You left out the fact that he uses chat speak and has blind faith in authority!

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 42

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 12:17:50 AM

MadameDahlia

Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile
but i know we havent been atteacked,,,u can call it luck...ill call it good interrogation and follow thru

How many years had gone by without an attack on U.S. soil prior to the planes crashing on September 11th? And without "interrogation" no less.

Torture, or what you prefer to call interrogation, does not produce viable information.

If I'm given the green light, ample time and devices to administer pain and humiliation I'll get just about anyone to confess to being a witch. Er... I mean... a terrorist. I'll make sure they turn over their neighbors, friends and family who have also pledged to serve the devil... Ahem... I mean terrorist cells. And then it's off to set fire to... erm... bomb their covens... damn! I meant bases. Bases!

I'm getting a strange feeling of déjà vu. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 43

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 5:41:59 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

How many years had gone by without an attack on U.S. soil prior to the planes crashing on September 11th?

8, as I recall since the earlier WTC attacks...and then there was OKC, FALN, the Unabomber, the Mad Bomber, etc.... not sure what the total number of various bombings before 9/11 have to do with justifying torture though.

(in reply to MadameDahlia)

Post #: 44

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 6:24:18 AM

flowered

Posts: 42
Joined: 4/3/2006
Status: offline

Anyone have links to sites describing or showing Iraqi citizens torturing US citizens? I mean I've seen a few beheadings and all that, but thats more murder then torture- just curious where all this them torturing us comes from, which seems to be a tit for tat rationale I'm hearing.

_____________________________

I love life.
I love to laugh.
I love to be loved.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 45

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 9:30:04 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Showing video of captives could be categorized as torture, especially if you slay them gruesomely on camera. Just displaying them on camera is not permitted by the Geneva Conventions, for example. But basically I agree with you; the whole argument is derisible. And you don't even have to challenge the point that some Iraqis have tortured some Americans. Even if it's true, it hardly authorizes the U.S. Armed Forces to torture detained Iraqis. That's uncivilized under any conditions, and before trial it's absolutely criminal.

(in reply to flowered)

Post #: 46

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 9:32:48 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Interestingly enough we set the precedent in world law for that very thing---

Tu Quoque is not a legal defense.

Master Nuremburg 1946 or so

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 47

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 9:34:33 AM

dragone

Posts: 215
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

Excuse me; now, set me straight, will you. I thought, by definition, sovereignty is freedom from external control being an autonomous state, having a right or power of self government. Or am I wrong here. What was Iraq then, a vassel state of another greater state?

If one nation invades another nation, isn't that an act of war, formally declared or not? Activites of warfare, during and continuing to and through occupation of a country, to displacement of the original government of that country; isn't that war being waged? A country so engaged is in fact, at war? Or am I riduclously distorting the issue?

You are debating torture? Like it's a good thing. Is there good torture as opposed to bad torture, (in this context)?

Here is a tid-bit of information as to conduct of a soldier during war:
1. While fighting for victory the soldier will observe the rules of chivalrous warfare. Cruelties and senseless destruction are below his standards.
2. No enemy who has surrendered will be killed, including partisans and spies. They will be duly punished by courts.
3. P.O.W. will not be ill treated or insulted. While arms, maps, and records are to be taken away from them, their personal belongings will not be touched.
4. Red Cross instituations are sacrosanct. Injured enemies are to be treated in a humane way. Medical personnel, and army chaplins may not be hindered in the execution of their medical or clerical activities.
5. The civilian population is sacrosanct. No looting, nor wanton destruction is permitted to the soldier. Landmarks of historical value or buildings serving religious purposes, art, science, or charity are to be especially respected. Deliveries in kind made, as well as services rendered by the population, may only be claimed if ordered by superiors and only against compensation.
6. Neutral territory will never be entered nor passed over by planes, nor shot at, it will not be the object of warlike activities of any kind.

This is from an official soldier's handbook, decreed by a standing government.

You appear to be justifing war, torture....declaring some faction as ; 'The Enemy', our enemy. So, how is the non-war invasion of Iraq jusified? How is torture Justified, of the P.O.NW.W. (Prisoners Of Non-War, War)?

(in reply to uwinceismile)

Post #: 48

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 11:51:30 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Vendeval, why did you ignore Article 4 section A. 2 of the Geneva Convention. It specifically says that these people are NOT "Prisioners of War" under Geneva.

Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

Terrorists do not obey these conditions. The American Revolutionaries did. They intentionally use the civilains as cover. I am not arguing to hire a squad of Darth Vaders to torture them to death, but coercive interrogation within limits is totally fine. As is removing them from the battlefield and preventing them from contacting outside. The vast majority of people taken into both Gitmo and AbuGrade were quickly released.

And farg if my Brother or Nephew was caught in Afghanistan with a rifle or a trunk full of Semtex, I would say waterboard em.

(in reply to dragone)

Post #: 49

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 11:56:32 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

Who the hell cares?

The authority to TORTURE PRISONERS IS NEVER DELEGATED TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

Show me the EXACT TEXT from the Constitution or Amendment which you would claim *does* delegate that authority?

And if it's so damn important, Amend the fucking Constitution.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 50

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 11:57:16 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
The vast majority of people taken into both Gitmo and AbuGrade were quickly released.

I will call bullshit.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 51

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 11:58:40 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Dragone, not sure why you are posting the pre Nazi Code for German Soldiers. It is basically in accordance with the spirit of Geneva, including the insistance that Soldiers must be in a defined chain of command, carry thier arms openly, and wear uniforms with rank.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 52

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 12:00:55 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Vendeval, why did you ignore Article 4 section A. 2 of the Geneva Convention. It specifically says that these people are NOT "Prisioners of War" under Geneva.

.......actually the article you quote does not 'specifically' say what you insist it does. It merely lays out a series of conditions that do not include terrorists. It's a bit like saying that laws on murder specifically outlaw abortion because it is not mentioned.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 53

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 12:15:09 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

I personally don't give a fuck whether Article 4, Section A.2 of the Geneva Convention applies to terrorists. The United States government isn't authorized to torture anyone under any conditions. And I can't believe some people don't accept that.

This is wrong for so many reasons. The prisoners who were tortured weren't even combatants. Most of them were just picked up on the street. Absolutely none of them had had a trial, and none of them had useful information, either.

Here, you want to know how interrogation actually WORKS? This is a good example:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/09/11/060911fa_fact

No torture. Really, if you war apologists believe your own rhetoric that Abu Ghraib inmates are "dead-enders," what do you expect to get out of torturing them? Either dead silence or some bullshit story to end their pain. That's not how you get useful intelligence, and any civilized human being ought to recognize that.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 54

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 1:26:04 PM

dragone

Posts: 215
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline

To demonstrate to you, and others, that 'CODES' of behavior and conduct is merely plain.... Bullshit. We all know what the nazi soldiers did; and you think that a code of behavior, a code for torture actually means something.

War is dirty and nasty, prisoners are not treated humainly, never were, never will be. These torture Codes, what the Bush defines as acceptible or not, is just plain bullshit. As my post demonstrates, illustrates, in the most vivid graphic sense possible, just what codes of behavior really account for....nothing. Ya know, sometimes is behooves us to draw upon hiistory every now and then, to know where we are, and where we are going.

Your statement of prisoners at Gitmo & Adu Grade being quickly released is more bullshit. Your implication being it's all a minor inconvience to those prisoners, they were detained a few days, so what.

The real shame of all this, is, that it was released to public scrunity, and has brought embarasment to the Bush Government. The shame is the US professes itself to be humain, fair, and upright in all it's dealings, protecting the rights of the individual; when revealed all is a hoax, and hypocrasy. Propaganda to sell it's fabricated rightousness, while this government recks havoc for greed's sake.

War is War, you take prisoners, you torture them to get information, demoralize the enemy, take revenge, and some really enjoy it, the americans do it, have done it, and the enemy does it; it is the nature of the beast unleashed. There is no moral ground here, or 'giving them a taste of their own medicine'; this side does that, so we do this.

To 'bean count' the types of tortures, the acceptiblity of torture, who is best at it, using it as a tool, is ridiculous to the max.

Torture is the nature of the beast, uleashed at it's worst. Or...am I distorting it all to being ridiculous.

BTW; the US government outlawed the CPUSA with the Communist Control Act in 1954; you are wrong.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 55

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 4:27:49 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

I was not ignoring anything. Article 4 section A.2 does not specifically mention terrorists.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 56

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 4:43:40 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

The use of torture also means loosing the support of allies, increasing the ranks of a nation's
enemies and making more martyrs for for the terrorists.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 57

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 4:54:41 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Plenty of of statistics on this pdf, here are two -

"About 775 detainees have been held in Guantanamo since 11 January, 2002.

About 430 detainees of over 35 nations were still held in Guantanamo in late 2006."

http://www.amnesty.org/resources/pdf/closeguantanamo/03Gitmostats02.pdf

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 58

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 5:18:02 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Casie

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Casie

Haha, sorry had to giggle. But the terroist perform torture, cause permint bodily harm and usually death to our soliders. What we do to get information is a far leap from torture in my opinon

Then you'll volunteer your Mother and/or Children for it?

Maybe in 5 years you will see them again. Maybe not.

If it's "not torture", then it's perfectly fine to subject YOUR FAMILY to it, isn't it?

If it's not for everyone, then it's not Equal Protection OR Due Process.

If my family new things that could save lifes and refused to speak or if they were a part of a radical group than yes,

That's a dishonest qualification, I didn't say that anyone KNEW ANYTHING.

And SINCE NOT ONE of the prisoners has been given an ARRAIGNMENT ON CHARGES, it's dishonest to suggest for even a second that they *do* have information which could save lives.

Remember, no-one being held as an "enemy combatant" has had ANY charges files, ANY competent counsel, or ANY day in court, and no one knows if THEY know anything?

They're NOT GUILTY OF ANYTHING until found so in a Court of Law.

Why should YOU be treated any different from them?

So, back to our scenario.

Since whether or not there is even any worthwhile intel to extract, let's say, if your father *supposedly* knew *something*, should...

Should your mother be raped to induce him to talk?

Should *you* be snatched off the street by US Gov't Agents, raped and threatened with death if it would induce him to talk?

It's only one or two more lives vs. thousands, according to your logic, isn't it?

Excuse me...

I really try to stay out of political discussions but can you show me the last objectively documented instance of U. S. Government agents snatching someone off the street and raping them? Can you show me the last documented instance where U. S. Government agents snatched someone up off the street and cut off their fingers without a trial? Even with a trial? Can you show me the last documented instance where U. S. Government agents snatched a journalist up and beheaded them? Can you show me an instance where U. S. Government agents or British Government agents snatched a female terrorist or solder and stripped her almost naked and then put her in a cell with men?

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 59

RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/27/2007 5:20:24 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Can you show me an instance where U. S. Government agents or British Government agents snatched a female terrorist or solder and stripped her almost naked and then put her in a cell with men?

...Abu Ghraib? Except they were mostly civilians........

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 60

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture.

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.070