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RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/28/2007 4:25:54 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

The MPs at Abu Ghraib knew what they were doing was wrong.


That's because they were given training and orders to do it.

Now, the person who brought Torturing Prisoners to Abu Grahib and GITMO ( And WHO KNOWS HOW MANY OTHER SECRET PRISONS??? )

Whatever happened to him?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to EldroRolod)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/28/2007 5:21:28 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

As for searching out whether what you say is true or not, I should not have to.  If you say something is true, should you not be able to point to the proof of it? 



You are the one who referred to people as "terrorists" and "spies" and not being covered under habeas corpus.

I am not the one assuming guilt where no proof of guilt exists.

Since the legal presumption is "innocent until proven guilty," the onus is not on me to prove their innocence.  The onus is on you to provide evidence of their guilt.

Feel free to revise your accusations OR provide some proof that they are actually "terrorists" and "spies."

As far as the people I am accusing of guilt, anybody with a 3rd grade reading level could figure out that all detainees at Gitmo are being held in defiance of habeas corpus, making all people involved in their detainment potentially guilty of unlawful imprisonment.  I have provided links in the past, I am not interested in providing them again if you failed to read or understand them the first time.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/28/2007 7:08:46 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dragone

HOLD ON THERE KittinSol, JUST ONE DAMN MINUTE, if you please. Now, why did you dredge up this amensty stuff from 1944? 

AS I was admonished by a member, for bringing up...a soldier's handbook.......I NOW ADMONISH ...YYYOOOOUUUUU.


Noooooooooooo, dragone, this is a piece published on the Amnesty International website  .



_____________________________



(in reply to dragone)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 12:49:58 PM   
Lordandmaster


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By the way, if anyone wants to find the Taguba report, it's available online (even though it's technically a secret document):

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/tagubarpt.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Just read the fucking Taguba report.

I know, it's a lot easier to keep shouting that something doesn't exist than to take the time to find the evidence that it does.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 1:30:09 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

And from what I remember from reading about the trial, about half the charges cited in the Taguba report were thrown out as being unnecessarily exaggerated and in some case, just plain false. 



.......half were thrown out eh?.....so half of them were wholly justified.........where's your balance then? You speak of truth in the middle ground yet every word you type takes a side.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 2:19:47 PM   
thornhappy


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Joined: 12/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: dragone

hello Dere; sure, we are all going to spend our hours, researching just for you, what is, already known, worldwide; all over the internet; hell, even HolyWood Video has Docu-CD's on the stuff. You want the info, so why don't YOU serch it out, see if what we say is tue or knot; YOU take the time.


What is curious about the people justifying the behavior of the Bush administration and denouncing the existence of any evidence to suggest anything unbecoming was done, is that a bunch of high school students (which is what this thread is about) were able to track it down for themselves.

Says a lot about the people who insist no evidence exists that the United States is actively engaged in committing war crimes and violating constitutional standards.

Sinergy

And remember folks... the US declared water boarding a war crime way back in 1947.

And we used standard police methods to prosecute the people responsible for OKC, WTC I, etc.

thornhappy

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 2:22:56 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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Leave the poor guy alone for cripes sake, he's a Lame Duck!

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to thornhappy)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 5:42:26 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Leave the poor guy alone for cripes sake, he's a Lame Duck!


You misspelled "alleged felon"



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 5:46:11 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Leave the poor guy alone for cripes sake, he's a Lame Duck!


yeah I am sure he is heartily bereaved over the loss of prestige.  Mothers may feel a deeper bereavement, but they won't stand in history next to Adolf Hitler.


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 5:49:36 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EldroRolod

What the MPs did was NOT torture. 



In the same sense that Clinton did not have sex with that woman?

quote:



The one poster is correct; terrorists and spies are NOT afforded protection under the Geneva convention. 



Of course, since we dont know they are terrorists or spies until they are tried and convicted by a jury of their peers, your assertion is meaningless.

quote:



As for our enemy: They dont just hate us, their political and religious leaders have mandated our destruction. 



Who cares?  They probably think we will go there and destroy them.

Wait, didnt we already do that in Iraq, Panama, Grenada, etc?

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to EldroRolod)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 5:51:22 PM   
dragone


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Yeah, okay...but, but; this stuff is old, 1944...how could anything that old have any meaning, or be related to anything now...hey you......they didn't even have internet then, and, and what about McDonald's;  so, what do you have to say about that. Ya know, I get pretty weary reading this 1944 stuff, and...well it's 9-11 stuff now, not any nazi stuff. What the hell do the nazis have to do with anything? I mean; did Bush sr.; have televised in split screen Hitler and Saddam ranting like madmen...did he; did they show a split screen in promoting a reason; HA, and double HA. The Reichstag, in the 1930's even, hey you, you...that's a century ago,it got burned down so what, a communist was tortured and confessed, UNDER TORTURE, I might add; so you know, KNOW he was telling the truth and just not lieing to stop the beatings and pain. He had to confess, cus; confession is good for the soul. And hilter had to stop the commie red pinkos from taking over germany, and had Hindenburg pass the 'Emergency Decree' which suspended all articles which guaranteed liberty & freedom, giving police right to seize property, hold people without trial indefintely; then the Enabling Act; to protect Germany from any such future attacks, and to protect and guarrentee the German way of life, and children....  and you know the rest from the movies; And what has any of that stuff have to do with our constitution, which after all is just a piece of paper.

I mean, you bring to our attention something that is on an obsure website from a group not even remotely current and mainstream like us here on CM, and citing some piece of paper as some sort of authority.

Really, why would they have that old stuff on their site? What does it prove?

Bush said Saddam did it; and the WMD's were there, just well hidden, because those guys are good at hiding things. And, and, the next day, all the news media had photos, and names, and, and bios on those terror guys. The next day, so there, God said it, I believe it, that settles it.

My head hurts, I think it's time for my meds and a nap.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 5:59:48 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dragone

My head hurts, I think it's time for my meds and a nap.



Good call!

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to dragone)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 6:09:23 PM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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"In the same sense that Clinton did not have sex with that woman?"


Since when did a blow job become SEX!!!!!..BOUNTY

< Message edited by BOUNTYHUNTER -- 6/29/2007 6:10:00 PM >


_____________________________

US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 6:18:04 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

"In the same sense that Clinton did not have sex with that woman?"


Since when did a blow job become SEX!!!!!..BOUNTY


...since Republicans spent a vast amount of cash proving it was?

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 6:35:00 PM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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DID they prove it??? She could have just gave him a hand job or the excitment of having a young woman around he may have just had an "accident "smile...

_____________________________

US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 6:39:08 PM   
dragone


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LOL, LOL, I need that ,LOL

what a fool you are.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 6:40:10 PM   
EldroRolod


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Joined: 6/12/2007
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Dear Sinergy,
You are incorrect.  Terrorists and spies, captured on the battlefield, are also not afforded a trial by their peers.  Maybe we'll round up Al-qaeda for a jury pool.  and well... 

as for Dragone, the fact of the matter is that Bush never said Saddam was behind 9/11, so I'm not sure what statement you are referring to, but...

Saddam DID have WMD.  Everyone knew it going back to Reagan.. yes, Clinton knew it too.. and stated so much while HE was president.  Since he had used them in the past, only an idiot would stand and say he didnt have them.  Now, we gave Saddam 16 months to do whatever he was going to do with any nasty items he had in his possession prior to our invasion.  Thats a lot of time.  There are intelligence reports, no, not from us, that clearly state that both chemical weapons and VX gas containers were shipped via truck and aircraft into Syria.  And, the Jordanian government STOPPED a shipment of chemical weapons being brought into Jordan with Iraqi markings on the containers.  The information is out there and it isn't the Bush administration saying it.  In fact, the current administration won't even mention that intel because they know that their credibility on the issue has already been destroyed.  Hell, even a few road-side IEDs were constructed out of sarin gas mortar shells.  Luckily for our guys, the tangos were too stupid to realize the explosion would destroy the sarin, reducing the bomb to a more conventional weapon.

Look, civilians will never know all of the information.  That is the nature of the beast in intelligence and warfare.  It may piss people off, but its just the way it is.  Many years from now, when the current leaders are dead and gone, some of it will come out.  Eventually, the whole story will be known.  Take a lesson from the current CIA revelations that they were plotting to kill Castro.  40+ years ago.

Terrorism is a subject I have been teaching for 20 years.  Iraq has always been a part of those classes and lectures.  Always.  There are intel reports from european agencies that clearly state that mohammed atta met with Iraqi intelligence agents twice in the former czech republic prior to 9/11.  It is unrefuted.  People just dont talk about it, but the information is public.  Two of the world's most sought after terrorists were found in Baghdad when the US invaded.  They were living in the lap of luxury in Saddam's palaces, with his blessing.  Abu Nidal was murdered by Iraqi secret police just prior to our invasion.  For those who don't know the name, Abu Nidal was the number 1 most wanted terrorist in the world and had been long before anyone ever heard of Osama Bin Laden.  Iraq was his base of operations several times during his career and Saddam gave him safe haven in his aging condition until he knew we were coming.  Saddam didnt want us getting our hands on Nidal alive.  Abul Abbas, the terrorist mastermind behind the hijacking of the Aquillie Lauro (sp) cruise ship and murder of US citizen Leon Klinghoffer was arrested by the US in Baghdad during the invasion.   Saddam's own secret service was listed as a terrorist organization by the State Department going back 20 years ago.

Were there, and are there still, bigger fish to fry in the War on Terror?  Yes!  Our second stop after ousting the Taliban should have been Iran, who is the largest supporter of international terrorism in the world today.  We will face Iran one way or another.  I just hope its on our terms, not theirs.

If anyone is surprised about the government being able to identify the terrorists of 9/11 within a day or two, they really are uninformed about the capabilities of our systems of surveillance.  The average person today is photographed or videotaped more than 20 times per day via various devices in stores, workplaces, government buildings, street corners, banks, ATMs, etc.  When you become a suspect, it doesn't take much to find out where you've been and what you've been doing.  This of course is after the fact because they weren't paying attention to you until you decided to blow something up.  They know the profile:  arab men in their early 20s to 30s traveling alone or with other men... blah blah blah...  it would have been very easy to figure out who the suspects were once you began examining the passenger lists and comparing them to the video.

Everyone is so eager to blame US for what happened.  They simply dont get it.  They've been blind to what's been going on in the world for so long....  like since the 50's for those of you who flunked history...  that they just cant believe there are evil people in the world and their goal is world domination, just like the evil villians of old..  our fathers' and grandfathers' time.  The evil of the world did not die with Hitler.  And oh by the way...  another history lesson..  the radical muslims fought on Hitler's side during WWII.  The grand imam even helped Hitler formulate his "Final Solution."  But, everyone will ignore any actual facts regarding what is happening today and what our nation faces as an enemy. 

As one who serves this country with pride and honor, it saddens me that our citizens are so ignorant of the facts.  It saddens me that their only source of information comes from anti-government and anti-war blogs or websites paid for and supported by billionaire Marxists.  Yes, you can look that up too. (move on dot org)  It also saddens me that the current administration is unable, or unwilling to stand up and tell the world the truth about this war and why it is so important.  No, its not oil.  Its our very survival as a nation.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 6:42:46 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
I wonder sometimes if the presidential cigar will be ensconced in the presidential library in Fayetteville in some rube goldberg security system like the declaration of independance.

Gawd, america is the greatest country on earth.  I gotta sign off for a moment, I am tearing up here.

One last thing before I go, can you imagine the air handling system that is gonna have to handle that little macanudo in 50 years?




< Message edited by mnottertail -- 6/29/2007 6:45:05 PM >


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to dragone)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 7:10:33 PM   
dragone


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Status: offline
Hello; A real informative post; hey; I can't point to the exact place, and time; but It had to have been said via media; Both Bush's were at war with Iraq. On TV accounts Bush 11 says, Saddam was hiding WMD's, damn if I didn't hear it. Okay, I give it a rest, since I'm not willing to go hunt for it. Okay. You win.

The fact is, we are at war, undeclared; but we are there, breaking things.

Why aren't we informed by the media? Take a wild guess? Is it because the media wants us not to know. A controlled media; I think yes. We get what they want us to know, that is all; any debate is based on ...what we have been told, nothing more substantial than that. Proof has to be gleamed from actual transcripted data .People are believing what they choose to believe, few want to know the real reasons, and those that do, are searching by whatever means they have, from whatever sources are available to them; and each source is controlled by those who have vested interests who demand censorship; due to their own agendas in they are reporting.

AS far as your history data, I have no arguement; however, these terrorists are not the only terrorist around; and for me, I cannot accept that this government is doing what it is doing simply because we are good, and are looking out for the good welfare of the country...out of the kindness of our hearts; no monitary adgenda at all.

As for, things coming to light years later...prehaps; depending upon what documents are destroyed; what is written, what is accepted to remain; not all will be known. All depends upon who it is that maintains control of the century to come. The Pope Benidict is a classic example of 'record keeping and truth'. All that is known of him, he has written himself, along with his brother; all records have vanished, of anything which may have incrimidated him in any way.  Either way; this generation, will be gone, and our desendants will know....what, about anything? What has been designed for them to know.

(in reply to EldroRolod)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Presidential Scholars Pimp Slap Bush over Torture. - 6/29/2007 7:42:23 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dragone

LOL, LOL, I need that ,LOL

what a fool you are.


Thanks,

I think.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to dragone)
Profile   Post #: 100
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