Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*)


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 10:48:09 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Greetings...

I have been following the threads on 'contracts'. And I wished to ask people opinions on them. I have seen what people know about them, and all the legalities... but I am more interested in what people actually think about them. I have a really hard time trying to work out why slaves would want or even be allowed a contract?... To Me one seems to nulify the other? Contracts between Dominants who have bought and sold slaves(consensually) make some kind of sense (to me), But not between a slave and Dominant.

I do not wish to make a judgement... this is just my own personal view and I really would be interested in hearing from others and discussing it.

Thanks for reading this post, Be well.

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 12:20:34 PM   
NightDaughter


Posts: 264
Joined: 1/23/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		Well I do not see why people would like them, but I do know that several people find it a confort to have while otehrs wouldn't do a play without one, in one form or another.

Personaly I think its an individual deal, some it works for nicely others not so nicely.

Master and I do not have a Contract, nore do we wish to have one, we are comfortable with how we are and what we have going between us.

ND slave to Mysteron
BoundBodyParts - http://www.boundbodyparts.com
Master's and My Diary - http://www.boundbodyparts.com/blog

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 1:07:12 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I have a really hard time trying to work out why slaves would want or even be allowed a contract?


Oh my...contracts.

(I haven't been very active (for me, anyway) on the boards for last couple of weeks, and some of you know why that is (for the rest of you, that news will be breaking very shortly), but I just couldn't pass this topic up. *smile*)

If I read you right, you are looking for someone to explain the why of contracts, rather than the what or how. As someone who has a paperwork fetish as well as a general BDSM nature, they appeal to me on so many levels. I think perhaps the simplest way to explain how I am drawn to them is to list what I find so fascinating/rewarding about the negotiation, execution, and review of contracts.

1) As mentiond before, I have a paperwork fetish. I love the black and white evidence of a slaves submission. I love the checklists I have them fill out and the assignments they complete. I love reading the words and letting them play tiny scenes in my mind. Contracts satisfy this fetish in a way almost nothing else can. It combines commitment with structure and drips with kinky sex.

2) The negotiation of a contract is a great method of communication. It is easy to sort of be wishy washy in the beginning or relationships about how much you like one thing or another. Once it starts going down in black and white, it becomes much more real and brings up really good conversations.

3) Contracts stand as wonderful mileposts when looking back over a relationship. It is easy to see how the relationship has grown in trust and activities.

4) I love the structure provided by the contract. I like to know the lines and then play elegantly and creatively between them. I liken it much to a coloring book. Some people like to ignore the lines. I like to draw the lines and then color them in as my heart sees fit.

5) I think contracts allow for real growth. In all of my contracts, I set goals to be acheived during their execution. These goals become ways for both parties to push themsleves to grow and not remain stagnant in the relationship.

I could wax rhapsodic on my contract kink for hours, but instead I will just point to the 12 hour contract Berlin and I have negotiated for my visit in August (and that is not what has been keeping me busy these past weeks):

http://www.taggard.net/contracts/12Hour.rtf

Yours,
Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 2:19:39 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Hello Angel,

I'm sure it comes as no surprise to you that the view that you just put out there is very close to mine. Slaves in our subculture submit without conditions. Once a slave, they have no standing to contract anyway. At least that is how we see it. To be fair, though, submitting to unconditional slavery requires a level of trust and commitment on the part of the slave with which many (if not most) are uncomfortable. It is also fair to say that in a goodly percentage of cases trust like that would be misplaced even if it were given.

If the relationship stops short of absolute, unconditional submission, and, absent some of the attention to character that you and I have discussed, it probably should, a contract that spells out the conditions of submission is probably a good thing. If it is well written and unambiguous, it can at least provide clear boundaries that don't (or shouldn't) change in the heat of the moment or fall prey to convenient lapes of or embellishments on the recollections of one or more of the parties involved.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/5/2004 2:20:35 PM >

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 2:36:54 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

To be fair, though, submitting to unconditional slavery requires a level of trust and commitment on the part of the slave with which many (if not most) are uncomfortable.


"Unconditional" slavery also takes off the table some of the edgier, more risky, and in my eyes, more interesting aspects of the Master/slave dynamic.

When a slave can not have limits, how can one have an intelligent discussion on them? When a slave has no standing to say "I am here in my growth now", how can one understand when one has grown? I suppose a Gorean might argue that her Master knows, but I seem to remember reading that omniscience wasn't a Gorean Master requirement. Or maybe Gorean slaves don't grow. Or maybe the simple truth is that Gorean slaves really aren't pushed all that hard by their Masters. When you don't take very many risks, you don't need very many safeguards.

At least that is how we see it. *smile*

Yours,
Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 2:59:41 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

"Unconditional" slavery also takes off the table some of the edgier, more risky, and in my eyes, more interesting aspects of the Master/slave dynamic.


I would have a hard time commenting on what you are talking about Taggard, unless you would like to elaborate on what you find to be edgy and risky aspects of "the dynamic", and why you think they are more interesting than other aspects of an M/s relationship.

quote:

When a slave can not have limits, how can one have an intelligent discussion on them?


That's a bit of circular logic, I'm afraid. I agree with you, I have never had an interesting discussion about limits with a slave who had none. I have, however, had many discussions with a slave about her fears, desires, disappointments, and aspirations.

quote:

Or maybe Gorean slaves don't grow.


Again, you'd have to define growth for me to comment. If growth means attaining a higher tolerance for pain and discomfort, I'd agree with you. They generally don't. Give me an example or two, and I'll tell you whether they do or don't.

quote:

Or maybe the simple truth is that Gorean slaves really aren't pushed all that hard by their Masters.


I think that most Gorean girls would say that they are. I see that a woman that I owned some years ago just joined the site. I doubt that she'll comment, but she would be in a better position to tell you how hard she thought she was pushed.

quote:

When you don't take very many risks, you don't need very many safeguards.


Well, again, you'll have to define risks. Nobody is going to take any kind of risk for which they see no compensating reward (if they are smart). It could be that the risks that we see as worth taking aren't the same as those you hold dear. Someone was telling me the other day about a scene where needles were inserted all around the base of the neck of a submissive to look like some kind of tribal collar when it was done. Sounds both risky to me, and about as much fun as playing with a Mr. PotatoHead. See what I mean?

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/5/2004 4:26:28 PM >

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 3:12:05 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline
quote:

I think that most Gorean girls would say that they are. I see that a woman that I owned some years ago just joined the site. I doubt that she'll comment, but she would be in a better position to tell you how hard she thought she was pushed.


That is just incredibly fascinating to me. Why wouldn't she comment?

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 3:18:53 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		No reason in particular, I have just never known her to post on message boards much. Besides, unlike me, she is rather opinionated (grin) and has been known to get into fairly heated discussions with folks on boards like this in the past when she expressed those opinions. She may post, but I'd be surprised.

Leonidas

(in reply to LadyBeckett)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 3:22:14 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline 		Perhaps if we ask her nice, and ask her twice. Besides, I rather enjoy those of like disposition, and mood swings, or...whatever...*waves hand*

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 4:04:29 PM   
afmvdp


Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		As someone else with a "paperwork fetish" so to speak, my problem is not with the contract but the idea and usage of the word "slave". Slavery denotes unwilling, wherein submissive denotes willing. A slave signing a contract immediately removes them from being a slave.

JMO as it's just my personal issue with words and meanings.

(in reply to LadyBeckett)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 4:08:08 PM   
WayHome


Posts: 237
Joined: 8/4/2004
Status: offline 		I think the contract that Taggard presented demonstrates another use of contracts--short term scenes.

In situations where a person does not "belong" to you and in fact might have significant responsibilities to others such as vanilla relationships, a contract can serve to intensify the experience of submission.

What I am saying is that a submissive may not want, need, or be ready for any sort of long term giving over of his or her self. This is very healthy!! Boundaries are important in everyday life and causally consenting to anything and everything might not be a part of the present relationship, and shouldn't be if there is not a deep, long term commitment. In these cases, a contract that covers a specific length of time (12 hours, 24 hours, whatever) can provide a sort of "vacation" from everyday boundaries and control as well as a useful tool for transitioning back to the state of free will when the scene is finished. Some submissives need help getting their heads right for return to the outside world and the delineation of a contract can help. This can also greatly intensify the experience for both people. The openning of Taggard's contract makes statements about reliquishing the body and choices of dress and such. This might be something the sub is hesitant about normally but knowing weel in advance and metally preparing can lead to a much more intense journey. Knowing the contract has a beginning, middle, and end can also help both dom and sub to get past any hesitation they might have about the commitment involved. Both the dom and sub can fully commit mind and body knowing that the commitment ends at a pre-ordained time without hard feelings or drama.

My wife and i had a vinilla relationship for many years before we got into the lifestyle. In the early days of our transition we often used "24 hour contracts" to help us step outside of old roles and patterns of behavior to experience true power exchange. This technique has also been useful with others where we have a non-BDSM relationship on a daily basis. It allows us to adopt a different role fully and completely with reduced difficulty of returning to the everyday mind.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 4:15:54 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		No argument here. If the nature of the relationship is bounded scene play, or if the nature of the relationship isn't always what it is inside the "scene" it's another example of where a contract makes perfect sense. Very good points made WayHome

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/5/2004 4:16:21 PM >

(in reply to WayHome)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 4:38:36 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Thank You, Taggard, for responding so eloquently.

I do understand Your point taking it from a paperwork fetish view... If thats something that Causes Your blood to surge, then I can fully understand such. And a contract between a Dominant and slave because its what the Dominant wants, makes sense to me.

And the layout You have written is quite beautiful...

But, I still do not see how that works for a slave?... I am trying so hard to comprehend how a slave can make an informed decision on something she has no say in afterwards? If what You just wrote was between a Dominant and sub or two Dominants negotiating a slaves purchase, to Angel it makes sense... but the dynamics of a slaves surrender is one of releasing of herself to become anothers... therefore a contract (technically)would become meaningless. I completely understand the desire of a Master to see His slave grow... but a contract is surely void in a Dom/slave dynamic unless its binding, with no escape clause? A journal or diary kept is something that can be used as an aid for the Dominant and is something that allows Him/Her into the slaves head.

I do not doubt that contracts can work... I just cannot see how a slave can make a willing decision on a contract, as that gives them choice. For when a slave becomes a slave to Someone, they surrender choice.

Please understand that I am not trying to force an opinion...just trying to make sense of a Dominant/slave contract.

< Message edited by dark~angel -- 8/5/2004 4:39:28 PM >

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 4:39:55 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

TallDarkAndWitty:
Oh my...contracts.


My new nickname for you shall be Contract Slut. ;)

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 8/5/2004 4:40:28 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 4:43:42 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Leonidas

Thank You for Your input as always its something that makes Angel think...

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 4:48:45 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Greetings Jacean

Thank You for Your response. I believe thats how I feel and I am trying so hard to understand the concept.

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to afmvdp)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 4:53:10 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
WayHome...

Thanks for a really thought provoking reply...

It has helped me understand the need for such a contract in the short-term.

I still have problems with understanding for a longer period though. In such a respect... if a contract is agreed upon and all its requisits are fulfilled, then the slave could just be released or sold on? And that is something realised by a slave then?

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to WayHome)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 5:09:20 PM   
afmvdp


Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		Yes I think that you understand My point of view on the matter quite clearly per our discussions.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 8:26:20 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
I completely understand the desire of a Master to see His slave grow... but a contract is surely void in a Dom/slave dynamic unless its binding, with no escape clause?


Why would this be so? Why do things need to be permanent and without limits to be binding? A realistic contract with clearly set limits and boundaries is so much more binding (in my eyes) than some fictional "unconditional" surrender.

No one surrenders unconditionally with no escape clause. It isn't even legally possible in the US or UK. At any time they can call the police and be escorted to safety. People can pretend, or they can embrace the reality of life and draw the lines clearly. I think it goes alot to personal choice. Do you want to pretend that you are a slave with no limits, or do you want to embrace the limits.

quote:


Please understand that I am not trying to force an opinion...just trying to make sense of a Dominant/slave contract.


If you are serious in trying to understand, I think your first step should be to understand that not everyone views consensual slavery as you do. For some of us, it, like most other things, works on a sliding scale.

In my mind, a slave is one who loves to be owned. They may only want to be owned occasionally, or in scene. But when they play with those desires, they are desires that make them enjoy being owned. Being a slave doesn't mean wanting to be a slave all the time. A contract allows them to be a slave when they want, and then not be a slave outside of the contract.

Yours,
Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/5/2004 11:11:43 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

People can pretend, or they can embrace the reality of life and draw the lines clearly. I think it goes alot to personal choice. Do you want to pretend that you are a slave with no limits, or do you want to embrace the limits.


So it's your way, or it's pretend? I thought we were past that. Guess not. First it is "well, they may have no limits, but they baby their slaves, and they don't do the really good, edgy, risky stuff, so they don't need them". No reply about what the really good, edgy, risky stuff is, but that's OK. Now it's "no limits doesn't really mean no limits because chattel slavery isn't legal, so it's all make believe anyway". Do make up your mind as to why you are superior, would you? I have no need to run down what you do. I'm not at all threatened by the way that you do things. I'll just tell you that what you do doesn't happen to be for me. I have defended the way that you do things twice on this thread. I think that what you do is fine for you, and probably the right thing as far as you are concerned. It just isn't for me.

Being a slave without limits isn't really hard to understand. A woman kneels and begs a collar. For a period of months, or years, or decades, or longer, she is her master's property. She didn't make any exemptions, or exclusions. She didn't set any limits. She didn't say "I'll be your slave for the weekend, but only if X, Y, and Z, and only if we have two breaks a day when I can go "out of character" and not be a slave for a while. She didn't ask for 19 assurances in triplicate. She wanted to be his slave, and so she begged to be. From that time, until the time that she is released, or begs to be released from that collar, she is his, to do with exactly as he pleases. She can walk away at any time, but until she does, she is every bit a slave. It's been going on since about the time that you were in Jr. high that I can attest to first hand. Much longer, I'm sure. The fact that you don't understand it doesn't make it pretend.

You will have to pardon us, Taggard, if we don't choose either to embrace your way or face the fact that we are poseurs as you suggest. You see, we've been doing it way too long to buy that, or take you very seriously at all when you say it.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/6/2004 5:00:36 AM >

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.141