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RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 7:45:15 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		what about trying to find out WHY the person reacted the way they did.. instead of simply saying 'you reacted in a way i find offensive/unfavorable (insert term here)... and therefore you are no longer deemed worthy to be with me.

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~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


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RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 7:48:59 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

so being tossed aside without consideration does what? imo only reinforces that feeling..


Well....if I were tossed aside because I displayed jealous behaviors...personally, I would do some real soul searching and figure out why I felt that way and what I could do to overcome it and avoid it in the future. I would try to understand the root cause of my insecurity and make positive steps to change that. I would be accountable for my actions and behaviors and do as I do with everything else in life...learn the lesson there is to be learned.

People in this world can't "make" you jealous anymore than they can "make" you happy....those things come from within.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 7:49:44 PM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

So insecurity ..... not trusting the one you're with.... isn't always the case..


Yes but see true...it's not about not trusting the one you're with...it's about being secure and comfortable within yourself. It's about honestly understanding your worth and value. Insecurity comes from within...not from without. If someone has the ability to make you (generic you) feel jealous...the character flaw is on your(generic your) end...not a result of any actions they have taken.






IMO, erin is right on the money here. Insecurities aren't caused from outside sources.

I, personally, would not be in a relationship with someone that's insecure. People do change over the course of time and there are instances where someone isn't feeling as strong or secure as they usually do. I'm not talking about the out of the ordinary instances that I think Celeste is mentioning. I'm talking about ongoing jealousy.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

I was married to a man that checked the caller ID when he got home everynight. Tried to listen in on phone conversations, and accused me of fucking every man or woman I smiled at including my family members. I learn from my mistakes.

_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


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RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 7:56:38 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

mistoferin is right. If you have the ability to become jealous, the flaw is within you. You are insecure with yourself.

quote:

For a person to learn to control jealousy, it is first important to understand what underlies the irrational thinking. Frequently, an individual who is prone to jealousy may have problems with low self-esteem, feelings of insecurity, fear of vulnerability, or fear of abandonment.

A person with low self-esteem may feel so undeserving of being loved, that he can't believe that his spouse could possibly remain faithful to him. Perhaps these feelings stem from some abusive past relationship in which he was unloved and made to believe that he was at fault. For instance, if a teenager is told, "If only you were more like your brother, then maybe you could get a girlfriend" he comes to believe that there is something wrong with him. Many times we are given messages, some subtle and some not-so-subtle, as we are growing up that shape our beliefs about ourselves.


For more information:

http://www.behavioralconsultants.com/Newsletters/jealousy.htm


so being tossed aside without consideration does what? imo only reinforces that feeling..



Well, I hate to sound harsh, but if you are a jealous type and I am your Dom, it is not My problem or My responsibility to sort through your head problems. I have enough things to deal with on My own.

Now, with that said and in all fairness. If I loved you then I personally, and I am sure I do not speak for everyone, would go above and beyond to try and work My way through it. I am sure I would get pissed off in the process, but I would do My best to work through the issues. I can say that because I used to be the one who was on the other side of the fence and have since found My way through to the other side.


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Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 8:00:16 PM   
valeca


Posts: 403
Joined: 1/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

what about trying to find out WHY the person reacted the way they did.. instead of simply saying 'you reacted in a way i find offensive/unfavorable (insert term here)... and therefore you are no longer deemed worthy to be with me.


I think this is reasonable to hope for...




...when combined with erin's post:


quote:

If someone is breaking your trust in a way that makes you question yourself or your position....that questioning soon becomes insecurity...which then equals jealousy. If you are secure in yourself and in your position...jealousy is not the result. If they continue to push those trust limits in that manner, more likely the result will be exactly as you stated...life is too short....see ya!



My personal opinion would be: both parties should be responsible enough to seriously review their own actions, and ultimately, what lead to the final results.


< Message edited by valeca -- 2/20/2006 8:02:02 PM >

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RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 8:04:31 PM   
soulie


Posts: 9
Joined: 3/1/2005
Status: offline 		Seems most only see jealousy as one thing. I am a very secure person in who I am and what I have to offer to soemone. When a Dom constantly says prove your worth and other women call, who is playing the head games. But once your heart is in it, it is not so easy to walk. If the trust in the relationship becomes shattered, then jealousy comes into play. It does not only come from insecurity as many of you have posted, it also comes from a lack of trust, which is a big issue. but each has thier thoughts, those are mine. A secure loving relationship with trust, you do not find jealousy as an issue.

soulie

< Message edited by soulie -- 2/20/2006 8:12:12 PM >

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RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 8:15:35 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

i was reading on another thread the topic of jealousy... and was truly saddened to see all the posts that said 'dismiss him/her'... is this typical? if a submissive/slave is jealous they should be tossed aside?

Sometimes.

To me it matters more how they deal with jealousy, and whether it's a sign that the person really isn't oriented for that relationship.

The actual feelings are rarely a full green or full red light.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 8:25:56 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Removes post - changed my mind :)

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 2/20/2006 8:57:47 PM >

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RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 8:31:01 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I am sure that there are some who could be understanding and want to work past it. I am sure that there are some who would see it as a challenge that they would like to see if they can help their sub overcome. I am sure that there will be those who see it as a punishable offense that can be "trained" away. I am sure that there will be those who feel it is a deal breaker. There will be as many individual answers to this are there are people.

For myself personally, I feel that jealousy is an utterly wasteful emotion that is born of insecurity and I could not nor would not be in a relationship with anyone who exhibited this behavior.


Hard to believe i'm going to post again.. but figured what the hell again...

I agree Mist.. there's going to be alot of individual responses to this... and should be interresting....

Jealousy... TO ME... and to me only.. is a waste of time and energy. I'm not all that sure insecurity in the only problem though Mist. Though I feel secure in my relationship with Master...

In the past.. i've dated a few that thought it would be fun to see if they could make me jealous. And have actually gotten pist.. and thought I cared not 1 damn bit..about our relationship..because I refused to show anger... jealousy...

So insecurity ..... not trusting the one you're with.... isn't always the case.. specially when the other sets out to try to make you that way... and that's just another waste of time and energy in my book a well.



i'm not sure i'd generalise that the emotion is always borne of insecurty or that it is always useless. i have boundaries, wanting and needing a monogamous relationship. A twinge, i might discuss. An avalance, i would probably leave; for only a major violation of our relationship would bring on such strong feelings. There is one exception i admit: the predatory female who wants your Man. In such circumstances, both parties should recognise she does not respect the relationship and divest themselves of her company....but insecurity does play a role. At least IMO.

candystripper

(in reply to truesub4u)
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RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 8:39:29 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

first off i would like to state i DO think it is a waste of energy... i also believe it comes from insecurity... if am with One that is AWARE of my proclivity to be that way... does He get to activity try to enforce that emotion from me? and then toss me aside when He got the exact reaction He was looking for?


Chronic, self-generated jealousy of the "where were You?" varierty is self-destructive, driving one partner batshit and most often, leading to a beak up. But a Man should not "play" with a woman's jealous tendencies in an effort to "train" her not to experience them. They are rooted in insecurity, and it should be dealt with as such. IMO.

candystripper

He might have that right... as some would say... but he'll damn straight know.. when I get tossed... I leave marks behind... specially when he's the one that drew them out on purpose.. LOL




< Message edited by candystripper -- 2/20/2006 8:40:11 PM >

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RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 8:45:49 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

mistoferin is right. If you have the ability to become jealous, the flaw is within you. You are insecure with yourself.

quote:

For a person to learn to control jealousy, it is first important to understand what underlies the irrational thinking. Frequently, an individual who is prone to jealousy may have problems with low self-esteem, feelings of insecurity, fear of vulnerability, or fear of abandonment.

A person with low self-esteem may feel so undeserving of being loved, that he can't believe that his spouse could possibly remain faithful to him. Perhaps these feelings stem from some abusive past relationship in which he was unloved and made to believe that he was at fault. For instance, if a teenager is told, "If only you were more like your brother, then maybe you could get a girlfriend" he comes to believe that there is something wrong with him. Many times we are given messages, some subtle and some not-so-subtle, as we are growing up that shape our beliefs about ourselves.


For more information:

http://www.behavioralconsultants.com/Newsletters/jealousy.htm


so being tossed aside without consideration does what? imo only reinforces that feeling..




Yes, experiences of any sort which leave one wondering why they were not worth more to another are troubling. Ultimately, a balanced person comes to understand the other lacked the skill to handle an incompatibility issue better, and it does not relect on them. But that takes time, and those in great pain from self-doubt may not get there. i think care and concern should be shown at break-ups between adults. i'm not so sure any of us is entirely free of self-doubt.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 2/20/2006 8:46:40 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 9:01:22 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		I agree with the care and concern. I do not believe you should just give them a good swift kick (as tempting as it may be) and slam the door on them. There is, after all, such a thing as diplomacy.

"You suck. Thanks for playing" might be a WEE bit cold. hehe

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 9:16:25 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

There is one exception i admit: the predatory female who wants your Man. In such circumstances, both parties should recognise she does not respect the relationship and divest themselves of her company....but insecurity does play a role. At least IMO.

candystripper



Candy this is what I was refering to with the "other party"... she may not know of my existance... but then again.. if she does.. he needs to tell her.. if he fails to do so.. it's his game... not mine... because I personally won't play the game.

Now there are a few out there... like you said.. won't respect the relationship.. and continue advances towards him... (a little flirting never hurts no one really... but also depends on the extent of that too)... but if she continues.. after he said no thank you, I have what I want. Well hell ..... that's not jealousy kicking her ass sweetie... that's just a little schooling in manner and respect... LOL

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 9:18:06 PM   
DragonNphoenix


Posts: 617
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

first off i would like to state i DO think it is a waste of energy... i also believe it comes from insecurity... if am with One that is AWARE of my proclivity to be that way... does He get to activity try to enforce that emotion from me? and then toss me aside when He got the exact reaction He was looking for?



First off... I have to agree that jealousy is a waste of time and energy. Does that mean that I have never been jealous... hell no.

Second... I personally dont believe that jealousy is a reason to just 'get rid of' a slave. I would suggest trying to talk through the issues and trying to resolve them first.

Third... If a Master is trying to provoke a jealous reaction from his slave... maybe she should be the one to leave him.... Maybe realse is not such a bad thing in this event....


Sorry... just my personal thoughts on this subject.


1st Girl Phoenix



_____________________________

**Pain is just pleasure with a twist**

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 9:37:39 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, the basis of it is the most crucial thing -- but the basis is rarely where the individual in question sees it as being. The individual in question is liable to blame some aspect of the current relationship for his or her jealousy, when more often, it is something else entirely, usually something within the history of the person and his or her response to that history, that elicits the particular fear/insecurity/anger/bitterness formula that is called "jealousy".

For those who are experiencing true jealousy, and not just the bit of insecurity and the sorting-out of hierarchy in the relationship that always comes at the beginning of a new relationship, being -in- a relationship is the -last- place that they need to be. True jealousy is a sign of some pretty deep insecurities, and it is nearly impossible to sort those insecurities out while trying to start a new relationship or maintain an established relationship under the strain of a new dynamic or with new parameters, in particular because the current relationship often will be used as a conveniet scapegoat, rather than the more accurate description as a "trigger".

In a way, it is a blessing to the individual who is given an "out" because of jealousy. He or she is being given an opportunity to take time to figure out the root cause of the insecurity, and figure out what he or she needs to re-establish some trust in him/herself, in order to be a healthy member of a family community -- whether that family community is made up of a core of 2 adults, or whether it is something larger (either with the addition of unmentionables or other adult members.) The problem is that most people won't see the gift that is being given to them.

Lady Zephyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

what about the basis for it? does that not come into play?


< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 2/20/2006 9:40:19 PM >

_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 9:39:23 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		jealousy is an emotion... just like love, anger and everything else we as humans feel... would you (generic you) dismiss one simply because they 'loved you'? my whole point in this thread was to find out why so many were so quick to say 'toss him/her' aside... without knowing where that particular emotion stemmed from.. it's easy to say 'oh hell just walk away'... sticking it out is the difficult part.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 9:42:58 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, jealousy is not an emotion in and of itself. It is a -collection- of emotions and external behaviors that we -define- as jealousy. This is one of the big problems when people try to -resolve- jealousy... it is seen as a separate, individual problem... when it is actually a symptom of much more complex interactions of emotional interpretations and responses.

Lady Zephyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

jealousy is an emotion... just like love, anger and everything else we as humans feel... would you (generic you) dismiss one simply because they 'loved you'? my whole point in this thread was to find out why so many were so quick to say 'toss him/her' aside... without knowing where that particular emotion stemmed from.. it's easy to say 'oh hell just walk away'... sticking it out is the difficult part.


_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 9:51:04 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DragonNphoenix


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

first off i would like to state i DO think it is a waste of energy... i also believe it comes from insecurity... if am with One that is AWARE of my proclivity to be that way... does He get to activity try to enforce that emotion from me? and then toss me aside when He got the exact reaction He was looking for?



First off... I have to agree that jealousy is a waste of time and energy. Does that mean that I have never been jealous... hell no.

Second... I personally dont believe that jealousy is a reason to just 'get rid of' a slave. I would suggest trying to talk through the issues and trying to resolve them first.

Third... If a Master is trying to provoke a jealous reaction from his slave... maybe she should be the one to leave him.... Maybe realse is not such a bad thing in this event....


Sorry... just my personal thoughts on this subject.


1st Girl Phoenix





i agree here. The post i pulled was similar, only it had more personal information which i decided not to share. In short, people have insecurities. This is not an unknown fact. This can be especially true with submissive people, who want to be pleasing. 'If a Master does not know of a submissive's insecurities and fears before taking ownership of her (or him)...why not? And why is she insecure/jealous? Can it be worked through? i will just say i am one grateful slave that my Master saw what was behind my fears and put in the effort to develop the potential in me that he saw.

(in reply to DragonNphoenix)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 9:52:02 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

jealousy is an emotion... just like love, anger and everything else we as humans feel...


Yes you are correct, it is. There are negative emotions and postive emotions. What I am trying to suggest is that it is "we" who are responsible for our emotions and it is we who own them. We can choose to wallow in negative or we can choose to find the positive in every life experience.

We all have experiences in life that cause us to feel emotion. It is "our" choice however, what emotion we wish to attach to any particular experience. If you have a traumatic experience for instance...you can walk away from it feeling like a victim...or you can choose to walk away from it feeling like a survivor.

It is a personal choice and it just amazes me how people will so easily give up their own personal power....or never even understand that it IS something that is within their power in the first place. It is more difficult to accept the concept of being personally responsible and accountable for oneself, one's behaviors....and yes, ones' own emotions....but it is certainly worth the effort.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Jealousy - 2/20/2006 9:56:28 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

jealousy is an emotion... just like love, anger and everything else we as humans feel... would you (generic you) dismiss one simply because they 'loved you'? my whole point in this thread was to find out why so many were so quick to say 'toss him/her' aside... without knowing where that particular emotion stemmed from.. it's easy to say 'oh hell just walk away'... sticking it out is the difficult part.


Was trying to think of something to say about this part of the thread as well Angelic... but something was said earlier.. i can't get past... the word.. FLAW...

Flaw... another flaw... I too do not understand why because someone has 1 little flaw.. you would toss them to the side... instead of trying to "fix that so called flaw"... if fixable. Granted.. as SirKenin said.. got enough to do.. don't need no more.... does this one "flaw" stop you from having something... someone.. so good in ones life?...

When I first met Master.. as stated before.. on the "vanilla" side of this all... not knowing he was a Dom or even remotely into BDSM. I noticed a few times.. what appeared to me.. as little signs of jealousy. Did I toss him to the side because of this?.... NO... I talked to him about it.. just as I would any other Dom or non BDSM male i'm being sought out by. His reply was simple... yes.. to a point.. this is what I had seen.

Now I didn't see him jumping up and down or ranting and raving... I just noticed some withdrawing.... getting quiet... less involved in things we were doing at the hangout. Apparently.. being the flirt I've always been... he didn't like it... worse yet... he didn't so much as see my flirting.. as he seen me receiving the flirting in return...Where on the other hand.... Master too is a flirt... and doesn't see it being harmful... but then again neither do I... I love to watch this actually.... ... And we also was just getting started on our relationship.. and neither knew where it was.. or was going. Now sense taking the time to work this out with conversation..... and a little compromising on each others behalf.... we've worked it out... got past this.

Some can.. some can't... some take the time... some do not.. it's added work.. they don't want to deal with it. That's great.. for each individuals needs in wanting to put up with.. or not put up with. Something we don't all... always agree on either.

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 40
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