Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/6/2013 10:03:33 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Had nikki actually read feminism literature, he wouldnt have needed to ask that question.

Well, I don't know if that's true. Is feminist literature so monolithic than any two people reading different selections would of necessity come away with the same picture? Frankly, I have no background in feminist literature. What little I've read was decades ago. But I have to say, that glancing experience left me with the impression that some feminists thought the only mistake women ever made was not keeping men chained-up as source of labor and sperm.

At the time, I dismissed this view as belonging to the jaundiced fringe, assuming such ideas couldn't be characteristic of the movement as a whole. And having other more pressing interests, I never pursued it. So when I saw the question posed, straight-up and directly, I thought to myself, "Ah ha! Here comes a teaching moment," or in my case a "learning moment," but instead all I got was a pretentious crapfest of personal attacks. Not very encouraging.

That's educational in itself, I suppose, but it isn't what I was hoping for.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/6/2013 10:24:54 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 2:01:39 AM   
thezeppo


Posts: 441
Joined: 11/15/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

In feminist literature, is anything ever the women's fault?

That's an interesting question about feminism.

Do tell us what you found in your (no doubt) extensive research into feminist literature. And please don't forget to cite your sources.

I'd be surprised if you ever managed to read a book by a feminist from cover to cover. So go on, surprise me! Show us you know what you are talking about.

If that's your answer to his question, I think you just made his point.

I can't agree with that...

She didn't answer the question. Her facile suggestion that he isn't qualified to ask it is bullshit: naughtynick81 is not the topic.

K.


I see what you mean, although I still don't think that makes Nick's point for him as regards feminist literature. Sorry if I came off as attacking you, it wasn't intentional.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 4:23:46 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Well, I don't know if that's true. Is feminist literature so monolithic than any two people reading different selections would of necessity come away with the same picture? Frankly, I have no background in feminist literature. What little I've read was decades ago. But I have to say, that glancing experience left me with the impression that some feminists thought the only mistake women ever made was not keeping men chained-up as source of labor and sperm.


Some isnt all.

Its not a prevelant thought among feminists that we are blameless. For example....

Ms Abbott, the shadow public health minister, urged the left to recognize that problems such as obesity and alcoholism, often stem from such breakdown.

Feminists should be able to talk about these issues and they should not be confined to the pages of women’s magazines, she argued.

She told The Guardian newspaper: "As a feminist, perhaps we have been ambivalent about families.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/9779587/Feminism-partly-to-blame-for-family-breakdown-says-Diane-Abbott.html

If all we listen too, and believe, are the radical extremes, then we should believe that groups like WBC are the mainstream for our religion and that Limbaugh portrays how all conservatives believe.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/7/2013 4:29:26 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 4:35:38 AM   
thezeppo


Posts: 441
Joined: 11/15/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Well, I don't know if that's true...


Some isnt all.


I think that's the key point in this thread. Doubtlessly some feminists are as Nick describes, but for the argument to be more compelling I would want to see evidence that this was the prevailing voice in feminism. Maybe I missed it in reading the two threads all in one go, but I don't think that evidence has been produced here.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 4:41:24 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		On a kink site, I dont see how it would be the prevalent attitude. Sure, we have dommes who are into female superiority. But we also have female submissives/slaves who are quite happy with their dominated lives, to whatever extent they are controlled/mastered/guided/ect.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 5:28:06 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		I don't see how any one who has ever heard of Camille Paglia or seen a feminist analysis of Margaret Thatcher's political career and activities could think that feminists are not self critical or critical of other women at times. .

The issue of complicity - how women co-operate with and are complicit with the patriarchal structures and forces that oppress us - is and has been a burning issue within feminism since its inception. Just about every feminist thinker of note has had something to say on this issue. For example, many people will have heard of Naomi Wolf's book The Beauty Myth. Large sections of this text deal with this issue.

Complicity remains an unresolved issue inside feminism. As it's not a 'sexy' or 'hot button' issue, discussions of issues such as this where feminists are openly self critical rarely reach the popular media, and so rarely get aired outside feminist circles.

Finally the idea that feminists are not self critical or critical of females is tied to the false notion that feminism is a singular ideology with a single set of beliefs. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are many feminisms, competing and contesting for influence and it's fair to say that apart from the basics of promoting the welfare and freedom of women and girls in society, there's little that all the various streams of feminism agree upon.

.




< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/7/2013 5:40:16 AM >

_____________________________



(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 5:35:12 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Well, I don't know if that's true...


Some isnt all.


I think that's the key point in this thread. Doubtlessly some feminists are as Nick describes, but for the argument to be more compelling I would want to see evidence that this was the prevailing voice in feminism. Maybe I missed it in reading the two threads all in one go, but I don't think that evidence has been produced here.


It's an old tactic, actually. Within any ideology or school of thought, it's relatively easy to find those who are on the fringe.

It's like in football, when sizing up the defensive line, you might try plays that would exploit whatever weaknesses or holes you might find. Similarly, the goofball fringe in an ideological group would be the weak link which the opposition can then attack.

I'm not sure if there even is a prevailing voice in feminism, but I think in evaluating any group, one has to discern their ability to "police their own," so to speak. Do they openly acknowledge their weak links? Are they willing to criticize and dissociate themselves from their weak links? Or do they refrain from doing so in the belief that they must show solidarity no matter what?

Sometimes, it might be wiser to make a tactical concession regarding the weaknesses of a position, in order to move past that and concentrate more on the strengths. Some people seem reluctant to do that as they see it as a sign of weakness, thinking that the best defense is a good offense. Sometimes, that may be the case, but if overused, it can be seen as disingenuous and arrogant.


(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 7:48:50 AM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline 		It gives you an endless source of posting material apparently.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 8:47:27 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Here's one of the problems in the debate.

Not all femininsts are batshit crazy extremists. Stuff like this http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html however is what gets printed.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 12:51:53 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The issue of complicity - how women co-operate with and are complicit with the patriarchal structures and forces that oppress us - is and has been a burning issue within feminism since its inception. Just about every feminist thinker of note has had something to say on this issue.

Accusing women who disagree with the feminist construction of reality of being "complicit with the patriarchal structures and forces that oppress us" is nothing more or less than crude propagandistic browbeating. I mean seriously, if that's one of feminism's "buring issues," I don't think I'll need to catch up on my reading anytime soon.

complicit [adj] - involved with others in reprehensible or illegal activity

K.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 2:53:20 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The issue of complicity - how women co-operate with and are complicit with the patriarchal structures and forces that oppress us - is and has been a burning issue within feminism since its inception. Just about every feminist thinker of note has had something to say on this issue.

Accusing women who disagree with the feminist construction of reality of being "complicit with the patriarchal structures and forces that oppress us" is nothing more or less than crude propagandistic browbeating. I mean seriously, if that's one of feminism's "buring issues," I don't think I'll need to catch up on my reading anytime soon.

complicit [adj] - involved with others in reprehensible or illegal activity

K.


Hell, K, it's a very long-standing theme in feminism. It's probably existed since as far back as the suffragettes. I'm surprised that your reaction is strong, to be honest. Does the idea that 'women turn *themselves* into "Stepford Wives"' seem so far out to you?

Myself, I see evidence of women deliberately making themselves fragile and vulnerable, because that's what they think makes them 'feminine', in all sorts of ways, everywhere. Gawd, even my dad makes that point, and he's a fire-blowing old Tory.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 3:07:39 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Not all femininsts are batshit crazy extremists. Stuff like this http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html however is what gets printed.


It's peculiar how some 'isms' in politics get such a free ride, while others have to keep their noses so clean, isn't it? I mean, people who've labelled themselves 'conservative' or 'liberal' have said or done some of the most heinous things in history, yet few people will say 'Yes, well, that was just conservatism or liberalism in practice. Conservatism in general, liberalism in general - both are to be characterised by what those guys did'. Few say 'every Republican is a Nixon' or 'every democrat is a Clinton'. Certainly the newspapers don't. But I've read so many who've said, or implied, that every feminist is an Andrea Dworkin and most of the worst newspapers will blithely speak that way.

When I read these threads on feminism, it seems that the definition of the word is assumed by most to be as untroubling as the definition, say, of combustion engines, kangaroos or proteins. There's no propaganda involved in the way those definitions are shaped, it seems to be assumed.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 4:55:30 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I'm surprised that your reaction is strong, to be honest. Does the idea that 'women turn *themselves* into "Stepford Wives"' seem so far out to you?

So the choice is between being a feminist or a "Stepford Wife"? Isn't that kinda like the choice between being a born-again Christian or a minion of Satan? Apparently feminism and the Christian Right have the same "burning issue". Not everybody agrees with them either. But maybe you have a point. It must be tough to be in possession of the Truth and find that your message isn't appreciated. I'll try to have more sympathy in the future.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/7/2013 5:11:55 PM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 5:28:02 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

In the western world?

It's an open discussion.


Huh?

(in reply to naughtynick81)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 5:45:14 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

So the choice is between being a feminist or a "Stepford Wife"?


Actually, yes, it sort of is, for me. But that's because I hold to the definition of 'feminist' as someone who believes in freedom and equality for women. That's it - no more and no less. So, most women and indeed most men *are* feminists, because they claim to hold to the same definition. (Oh horrors - lots of women and even more men are in danger of cropping their hair, wearing boiler suits and monkey boots and burning their bras - even if they're men and don't actually own any bras!)

As far as I'm concerned a woman doesn't *get* to froth prettily and poutingly about how she's a a lovely, perfumy and fragrant flower who only demands that she not get abused in her relationship, nor be paid less for the same job, nor have the same political rights in general, because that's only natural. It *became* 'only natural' because of feminists. I can't stand farty old anti-feminist men, it's true. But, to be honest, silly little anti-feminist nitwit females who have no idea how their bread first got buttered irritate the swivelling nuts off me even more, if that were possible.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 5:52:38 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Not all femininsts are batshit crazy extremists. Stuff like this http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html however is what gets printed.


It's peculiar how some 'isms' in politics get such a free ride, while others have to keep their noses so clean, isn't it? I mean, people who've labelled themselves 'conservative' or 'liberal' have said or done some of the most heinous things in history, yet few people will say 'Yes, well, that was just conservatism or liberalism in practice. Conservatism in general, liberalism in general - both are to be characterised by what those guys did'. Few say 'every Republican is a Nixon' or 'every democrat is a Clinton'. Certainly the newspapers don't. But I've read so many who've said, or implied, that every feminist is an Andrea Dworkin and most of the worst newspapers will blithely speak that way.

When I read these threads on feminism, it seems that the definition of the word is assumed by most to be as untroubling as the definition, say, of combustion engines, kangaroos or proteins. There's no propaganda involved in the way those definitions are shaped, it seems to be assumed.

Did you even bother reading the batshit crazy rantings of the post I referred to?

I would assume no as you didn't bother to mention them.

Let's give the folks a taste of this lady's thoughts.

"I feel awful for Joss Whedon's wife. From what I've read about him and the interviews I've watched, I'm fairly certain that he rapes his wife and abuses her in various other ways. I honestly can't think of anything worse than living with a man like Joss who thinks of women like the way he portrays in his tv shows. How awful. The comment about the money was meant to be about how I personally could see no benefit from being with a man like Joss OTHER than money. Joss uses and abuses her. Probably rapes her and thinks of women as whores etc, etc. Obviously, Ms Whedon has her own reasons for staying. Fear, patriarchal concepts of love, etc. But I would argue that she gives everything and gets nothing. Money is the only concrete thing that she could possibly gain. But as I said money is worth nothing compared with self-integrity, self-esteem, love (sister/lesbian/gynaffectionate love) etc. So she still loses out. Poor woman."

Yes, kids, this is what passes for feminism these days.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 9/7/2013 5:54:42 PM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 5:54:57 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Did you even bother reading the batshit crazy rantings of the post I referred to?

I would assume no as you didn't bother to mention them.



No. Why should I have bothered?

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 5:58:08 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Did you even bother reading the batshit crazy rantings of the post I referred to?

I would assume no as you didn't bother to mention them.



No. Why should I have bothered?

Because it was subject of the fucking post you answered.
Tell me, are you here to actually take part in a discussion or white knight whatever feminist Domme might be wandering thru so she might take a fancy to you?

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/7/2013 6:08:04 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		I'm sorry, HW, I guessed that you'd cited a looney woman who'd self-identified as a feminist, so I didn't bother to read it. I've seen quite a few of those.

Mind you, I've seen far more loonies who've self-identified as conservatives, liberals and socialists - but I don't bother to read them, either. Nor headbangers who call up 'spiritual' or 'religious' ideas to justify their headbanging mental states. Such people I don't take to be representative - they're just loonies. No need to waste any time on them.

As you said, it might 'pass' for feminism these days - especially for those who just love to see feminism as something like that - but it isn't feminism. It's just lunacy.

ETA:

"Tell me, are you here to actually take part in a discussion or white knight whatever feminist Domme might be wandering thru so she might take a fancy to you?"

You dickhead. Wake up.



< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 9/7/2013 6:12:42 PM >

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? - 9/8/2013 12:31:02 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Yes, kids, this is what passes for feminism these days.


No HW. The insane and inane rant you posted is not "what passes for feminism these days". It is what passes as an insane and inane rant. It appears to be the personal blog of the poor troubled soul that wrote it and that's about all it will ever be. About as representative of feminism as WBC is of Christianity, or Al Quada is of Islam.

If people are really interested in what "what passes for feminism these days", there's a mountain of literature available for any one who wants to find out. Any decent bookshop will have a section devoted to feminism or womens' issues. That is where you or any one else genuinely interested can look and find a representative sample of "what passes for feminism these days".

Happy browsing!

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/8/2013 12:32:52 AM >

_____________________________



(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 100
Page:   <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: What does contemporary feminism do for men? Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109