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RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/28/2013 8:07:50 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustLust
Well I am new to all of this so my opinion is less valuable. But I am trying to learn. I thought this was more mental than physical. Isn't this about power sharing. The sub or slave has the power they are willing to give. Less power from a sub and more power from a slave? I think they all have their limits however. Am I missing something?

What country are you in? "Slave" is a much more freighted word in the US than a lot of other places, both because of our history of slavery, and also because of the history of BDSM in the US. I'll talk about the second for a minute.

As far as I know, it's the word "submissive" that is new. Back in the day (meaning soon after the second word war), there were masters and slaves (or "boys") in the gay leather BDSM groups. And, pretty much, slave meant total obedience, take any pain demanded of you, fuck and suck on demand. However, master-slave relationships in those circles didn't last very long -- a few months or so. Ever since the 1990s, people have been complaining about the velcro collars in cyber BDSM that are on one minute and off the next. But the origins of BDSM in this country had pretty velcro collars in real time.

It seems to me that the greatest contribution of heterosexual BDSM has been long-term power exchange relationships. And that''s created a whole new set of problems. It isn't that hard to put up with something for a few months, but for 20 years? That's different. Also, back in the day, people could work up from boy to Master, and everyone was supposed to start at the bottom. So the notions of True Dominant, slave heart, switches are confused, are very very new, popularized by a now-defunct website in the early 90s.

So we get to long-term relationships. The real world isn't a slave society. We don't live in the Beauty Books, or on Gor. So people have to compromise in their relationships to build something that withstands the pressures of real life. Hence, each Master/slave relationship is going to look different, with different types of power transferred in different situations.

Have fun :)

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to JustLust)

Post #: 61

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 5:03:39 AM

Rochsub2009

Posts: 2536
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Well, all those people are full of shit. Labels do matter, otherwise we cannot communicate with each other.

C'mon RS, why the name calling? It's not necessary. The two points of view are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

For example, I am in the "labels don't really matter" camp. Yet, I agree with your point that we need labels to communicate. What I DON'T agree with is arguing over definitions of labels. That's always fruitless. So rather than doing so, my default answer is simply "skip the labels and do whatever works for you and your partner". After all, that's all that really matters.

And if I did choose a label, half of the people out there are going to disagree with me anyway, so what's the point?

But of course, that's just my opinion. And I do acknowledge your point about the need to communicate. But can you acknowledge my point without saying that I'm "full of shit"?

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 62

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 5:38:24 AM

lilcracker

Posts: 243
Joined: 4/14/2012
Status: offline

quote:

Labels do matter, otherwise we cannot communicate with each other

How about human being; outside of here I don't label myself anything other than one with a submissive personality and the man and I communicate quite well.

quote:

You picked a gender label for yourself when you joined CollarMe and you can see where honesty about your gender is important to those with gender preferences.

You pick a label here because it is required when you join...if there had been an option not to pick one I would not had. And on that note...I could have picked I was a Dominant male because no Moderator is going to come to my house to see proof of my package. Remember that thread not too long ago where the poster put on the profile...he/she was a submissive female yet posted as a Dominant male...http://www.collarchat.com/m_4531828/tm.htm...see post number 3 and post number 6.

So what difference really does it make what gender or label you choose...really? If you are interested in meeting someone on here (real time), yeah it's probably a good idea to be at least honest about your gender...the label, it's up to your own unique definition and hopefully you will stumble across someone who agrees at least somewhat with your definition. And although I respect your definition...I don't agree with it.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 63

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 7:21:32 AM

Kana

Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

They can call themselves whatever they want, but I'm a gonna treat em the same,no matter what moniker they wear

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to lilcracker)

Post #: 64

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 7:56:32 AM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Well, all those people are full of shit. Labels do matter, otherwise we cannot communicate with each other.

C'mon RS, why the name calling? It's not necessary. The two points of view are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

For example, I am in the "labels don't really matter" camp. Yet, I agree with your point that we need labels to communicate. What I DON'T agree with is arguing over definitions of labels. That's always fruitless. So rather than doing so, my default answer is simply "skip the labels and do whatever works for you and your partner". After all, that's all that really matters.

And if I did choose a label, half of the people out there are going to disagree with me anyway, so what's the point?

But of course, that's just my opinion. And I do acknowledge your point about the need to communicate. But can you acknowledge my point without saying that I'm "full of shit"?

Sometimes things are exclusive. Either labels matter or they don't. And I call bullshit on you for sitting on the fence and agreeing with both sides. That's a crock. If we don't define, discuss or argue about a label's meaning, it has no definition and it isn't really a label is it? If I pick up a can of tomato soup and there is chicken soup inside, what was the point of having a label? So pick a side if your really you do agree that labels matter, how can you not agree that their definitions don't matter? I spoke on this topic before:

-=Letter=-

Dear anti-label coalition:

The recurrent sub/slave definition requests from newcomers always seem to rally your anti-label coalition and you say there are no real definitions instead of helping define the language and terms we do use in our lifestyle. Shame on you.

You preach that we should all meet with open hearts and open minds and not label ourselves at all. You are hypocrites because you gender label yourself as male, female or transsexual as well as listing your sexual relationship preferences as gay, straight or otherwise in order communicate who you are. Why should we stop there . . . because you do? Why not use the commonly accepted roles and definitions created by the needs of BDSM community to define ourselves like sub/slave/bottom/switch/Master/Dom/Top. I can’t believe you spread misinformation to newcomers about the lack meanings or definitions for common BDSM terms in relationship roles. Shame on you.

I know why you label your sexual preferences, because it is dangerous not to. I learned that lesson well in my youth because I grew up in the gay/pansexual community. Shemales (drag queens) were called women and lived life in that role. More than one fem fatale found herself beaten or worse because she (he) didn’t label herself properly to their prospective new lover or client. When the nut sack was discovered, they were beaten and some were even killed.

These poor young new shemales weren’t warned. They were insulated from the straight world and had their heads fluffed with things like “labels don’t matter” or they got role reinforcement like “you’re a real woman” like in my gazelle parable (see below). On behalf of all my young shemale friends that suffered and all the BDSM newcomers here on collarme that ask for definitions and will suffer at the hands of your lies and misinformation, I say you are dangerous! Shame on you.

My attitude that you are dangerous in your deceptions about labels being meaningless applies even though a slave or submissive may not end up dead from mislabeling or a lack of, they will suffer even though others in our broad pansexual kink family have found incorrect information fatal. Labels and definitions for our roles are good, use them well and let them define your base not confine your reach. Shame on those that claim they have no meaning or don’t apply!

Sincerely,
Kalon Eric

-=Gazelle Parable=-
To those that preach there is no definable difference or categorization difference between a slave and submissive, I disagree from a social perspective. I agree that personally, in the end, all that matters between just two people is whether or not they’re happy. It doesn’t matter if they call themselves goldfish, zebras, vampires or Martians. However when it comes to interfacing socially with others, I offer you this proverb I crafted:

There once were two young gazelles. They were sleek and fast and beautiful. They loved to play games and lived a passionate and fulfilling life joining the gazelle community. Once they joined in the gazelle community, some mean gazelles decided to trick them. The mean gazelles filled the happy young gazelles minds with misinformation. They said that being happy was all that matted, no matter what they called themselves.

The young gazelles decided to call themselves lions. They went out in the grass together and had role play, doing lion’s games and reporting back to their friends and debating about how lions “really and truly” lived. They believed they were lions.

One day while strolling along the road, an older lion was walking along when suddenly two happy young gazelles came up and jumped into his mouth proclaiming, “look we are lions too”. …so he ate them.

Moral: There are many successfully mutually mis-categorized relationships. God bless them all but, don’t preach your ignorance to others or you may get them killed (see letter above).

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to Rochsub2009)

Post #: 65

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 8:11:35 AM

lilcracker

Posts: 243
Joined: 4/14/2012
Status: offline

quote:

If I pick up a can of tomato soup and there is chicken soup inside, what was the point of having a label?

Point taken, but is tomato soup REALLY tomato soup if it is not creamy or low sodium or some other brand other than Campbell's...and honestly if your chicken soup is labeled tomato and you are hungry and like chicken soup more than likely you are still going to eat it.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 66

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 11:00:28 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

RS, I think what's going here is very much like the distinction between someone who is "religious" and someone who is "spiritual but not religious."

Before 1980, the primary way people were introduced to BDSM was through a pre-existing social structure, like a leather family, or a fetish convention. Today, by far the most common introduction to BDSM is through internet pornography. So kink, instead of being primarily social in nature, is now primarily individualistic.

It's as though you're in a very orthodox branch of the Roman Catholic Church -- Opus Dei, say -- and you're having a conversation with people who "don't believe in church, but believe in a higher power." Nobody's an atheist in the conversation, but that might be the only thing anyone has in common. It's so easy to see each side as "cares about the rules more than about God," and, "New Age hippies who just want an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway." And both criticisms might be right sometimes!

Anyway, I see a lot of parallels between those conversations, and these conversations about kink. It's much more than not agreeing about what "slave" means. I don't think anyone else on the thread means the same thing as you when you say "kink," with the possible exception of Lady Pact, because you share a similar kink background (in some ways).

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to lilcracker)

Post #: 67

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 11:38:09 AM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

FR

Slaves are fatter.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 68

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 12:58:29 PM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Slaves are fatter.

Bollox!!

Attachment (1)

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 69

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 1:38:34 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Why not use the commonly accepted roles and definitions created by the needs of BDSM community to define ourselves like sub/slave/bottom/switch/Master/Dom/Top.

As I see it, the crux of the problem lies here. When you say commonly accepted definition of the BDSM community, you are in fact referring to the smallest section of the community. The New Guard/leather group.

Most of us, those who came in during the past 20 years, have not had any exposure to your community. So expecting the majority of the people to accept the definition of the minority is naive.

Whether you like it or not, the largest community is the online one. And the online community does not have a commonly accepted definition.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 70

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 3:09:45 PM

Rochsub2009

Posts: 2536
Status: offline

RS,
And there you've proven my point. This discussion is fruitless. Moreover, you are so adamently locked into your position that you cannot see or accept the valid positions of others.

These are human relationships that we're talking about, not canned foods. So your analogy is both imprecise and inaccurate. The thing about human interaction is that each one is slightly different. No single label can accurately describe all of the permutations. It's simply not possible. And any label that could encompass all of the variations would have to be so vague as to render it useless.

While I acknowledged your point about the need for communication, I don't think these labels communicate as much information as your argument would imply. In fact, I think they communicate very little.

In short, the label aren't overly important, since we can't get people to agree on them anyway.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 9/29/2013 3:13:17 PM >

_____________________________

"The thing about smart mother fuckers is that sometimes, they sound like crazy mother fuckers to stupid mother fuckers".
-Robert Kirkman, The Walking Dead

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 71

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 3:11:04 PM

Rochsub2009

Posts: 2536
Status: offline

Oops. Accidental duplicate post.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 9/29/2013 3:12:48 PM >

_____________________________

"The thing about smart mother fuckers is that sometimes, they sound like crazy mother fuckers to stupid mother fuckers".
-Robert Kirkman, The Walking Dead

(in reply to Rochsub2009)

Post #: 72

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 6:04:40 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

To Roch & RedMagic

Yup, you guys are right. Labels don't mean shit. In fact, I am going to take my profile picture down and put up a picture of someone else . . . because like canned food, it doesn't matter if what you get looks like the picture on the cover.

Since when do labels have to "encompass all of the variations"? You mean like gender labels or the difference between a car and boat? I that communicates a lot. As I said, "labels and definitions for our roles are good, use them well and let them define your base not confine your reach." So all soup is not chicken soup. We all understand that. That's why we use more than one word to describe our roles. At least I know chicken soup won't be a canned ham.

Today I find myself saying the same thing again with different words explaining that like any term in the English language, our labels serve as a commonly understood benchmark. It is NOT commonly misunderstood except online. So share the meanings of the terms we use instead of using the internet to create an identity misunderstanding for newcomers like in the gazelle parable.

I can't believe how mean spirited you are and how much damage you want to do by dissolving the meanings behind BDSM terms for newcommers. I think you underrate the general gullibility of someone that would post a “what’s the difference between sub & slave” thread. BDSM, kink and the passions, rapture and the euphoria it creates is like drugs. Newcomers should be extended the same care and consideration someone getting stoned on drugs for the first time would be given because they will believe the most incredible things. It is this kind of online fuckery that got D/s crammed into the BDSM acronym in wiki. Shame on both of you for participating in the confusion instead of bringing clarity.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to Rochsub2009)

Post #: 73

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 6:12:24 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

I don't argue on the internet, so I'll respond by saying that I read everything you wrote. Also, I do agree with this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
BDSM, kink and the passions, rapture and the euphoria it creates is like drugs. Newcomers should be extended the same care and consideration someone getting stoned on drugs for the first time would be given because they will believe the most incredible things.

It's something I believe some posters don't recognize. I don't handle it in the way you wish, I understand that, but I do feel a certain responsibility when posting. People are going to read what I write, and some people are going to believe it because they are grasping for anything to make more sense of the emotions they are feeling. So I'd better not write crap.

I hope you have a great night.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 74

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/29/2013 8:24:05 PM

Rochsub2009

Posts: 2536
Status: offline

Sigh. I'm sorry that you see my behavior as mean-spirited. I certainly don't mean to be such, and I'm not trying to lead newbies astray.

I agree with you that newbies (and veterans) should have a basic grasp of terminology. As you've stated, that helps to foster communications. But I've been around long enough, and seen enough rehashes of the "what's the difference between a sub and a slave?" discussion to know that it never gets us anywhere. We never reach concensus (just like this thread isn't). The same happens on Fetlife.

Your answer is to redouble your efforts in fighting for the definition that you believe in. My answer is to say that we'll never all agree, so choose the ACTIVITIES that work for you and your partner, and don't get too hung up with the labels. So long as you and your partner are enjoying it, that's all that really matters.

Let's simply agree to disagree on this one. But please understand that my goal is NOT to do harm to newbies. In fact, it's quite the opposite. And I think that my posting history, and Redmagic's, will bear that out. We each take the time to provide helpful answers whenever we can.

On a different note, I agree with your point about lumping D/s in with BDSM. They're different, and I always try to make the point that I am into D/s, but not BDSM.

Be well, my friend. :-)

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 9/29/2013 8:27:12 PM >

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 75

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/30/2013 7:17:07 AM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

I have also seen the sub/slave rehash hundreds of times. The real life discussions usual get into detailed nuances about sacrifice or suffering and the motives behind them. But the universal agreement has always been that unlike slaves, submissives have a point of negotiation in there somewhere. Seemed like the one thing that could be agreed upon to define the difference. My personal queue for the difference is that for slaves, suffering isn't optional.

Another point is the differences between slave lifestyle and slave role play. Toss that in the mix and get a whole new can of worms. But, as far as how we treat newbees when they ask this recurring question, I do not understand why we have to confuse them with the conflicts that fall outside the norm instead of just telling what the word means 99% of the time when used in general conversation. That is what I am talking about. Give the poor guys a clue of what someone means when they use the term slave.

I have strong personal stance about labels. For 42 years I watched how the community has eked out its sub groups in the BDSM branch of the kink umbrella. For many of of those years I was actively supporting and helping define what we are. Then to see the internet come along and spread mass disinformation at the speed of light, until wikipedia doesn't even define our acronym properly, it's like watching someone shit on the cake you helped bake.

It feels like we are discounting the foundation everyone worked to build . . . BDSM means whatever the latest Castlerealm puppet masters say it does. BDSM now stands for D/s and there is no difference between a slave and a submissive.

I think both of you, Roch and RedMagic, are responsible publishers that give thought to what you say. I met RedMagic in person when he flew in for a CollarMe gathering here in Florida. He is very sincere. I am glad that you both express your view points . . . even if they are contrary to my own.

Luv ya both

More on the topic in this old thread: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=-

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to Rochsub2009)

Post #: 76

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/30/2013 10:18:52 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
It feels like we are discounting the foundation everyone worked to build . . . BDSM means whatever the latest Castlerealm puppet masters say it does. BDSM now stands for D/s and there is no difference between a slave and a submissive.

One thing that might be said in favor of CastleRealm is that it was a labor of love, so to speak. Lord Colm is living in the SF Bay Area now, organizing occasional BDSM events. I'm sure he didn't get rich off of his internet fame.

So today is worse, in the sense that money is driving people's first exposure to kink.

I think the puppet master now is commercial interests: either internet porn, or 50 Shades book publishers. So whatever generates the most sales is the myth they will try to build and perpetuate. This is why "dominant female" porn is for the man's pleasure, and the "master" in 50 Shades of Grey was a pussywhipped service top. The men watching porn and the women reading fap-books aren't interested in submitting (or dominating); they just want to get their freak on.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 77

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/30/2013 10:36:31 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Give the poor guys a clue of what someone means when they use the term slave.

Considering that most seem to think slave equals having their laundry list of kinky sex things done to them...I'm not sure that would help.

quote:

BDSM now stands for D/s and there is no difference between a slave and a submissive.

I agree about the BDSM thing. It has to be the only acronym where a group of people have attempted to stuff two meanings into one acronym. However, since I don't believe in consensual slavery, in my mind the grouping falls more into bottom or varying degrees of submission.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

One thing that might be said in favor of CastleRealm is that it was a labor of love, so to speak.

And according to some it was fiction.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 78

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/30/2013 10:55:33 AM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ROPENHIGHHEELS

Am I correct when I say that a submissive is a person with limits while a slave is a person without limits? When I see profiles on here which say "I'm looking for a submissive that's a slave" it makes me wonder if they have any clue about the lifestyle. Or is it my understanding of the two words that is wrong? Explanations are appreciated.

Ahhh the sub/slave discussion strikes again...

Allow me to clear this up for you... If you wanna call yourself a sub...ok you are a sub..by the same token if you wanna be a slave... guess what you are now a slave... clear as mud?

You can self proclaim anything it's up to the other person to determine whether or not you fit their description of what it is you self proclaim.

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to ROPENHIGHHEELS)

Post #: 79

RE: Difference between sub and slave. - 9/30/2013 11:30:47 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

This is why I never come on these threads until a few pages have gone by. That's when you start to get to the good stuff.

OP, in My personal opinion, I tend to use the term submissive for somebody who has given Me *some* authority in the dynamic. I term someone My slave when I have more. Here's the kicker though. Where My line of 'how much authority makes the difference' is probably different than a whole lot of people's and since it's hard to quantify things like authority, power, control, etc, that's when the whole discussion becomes difficult.

I'm not on the side of the debate that says labels don't matter. I also don't see consensus as the point of such discussions. The only thing people can give in the 'sub vrs slave' rehash is a basic blurb because that's what we started with and those definitions, for some of us, actually expanded over time. One of the things I happen to think that I've acquired with that time factor is the difference between common definition and personal definition. My personal definition is a lot more in depth, but I spent fifteen years building it. The nuances that I associate with each word came from participating in dynamics with others and it's not possible to explain that kind of thing on the internet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
They can call themselves whatever they want, but I'm a gonna treat em the same,no matter what moniker they wear

I don't. Not at all. There's a much different way that I interact with a bottom vrs a sub vrs a slave. Playing with someone casually (top/bottom) doesn't give Me the same rights and authority as when I own someone's behind. Playing with a submissive is going to fall somewhere between the two ends of the scale. I'm not somebody's Mistress just because I'm topping them and the having earned leather thing is a separate issue. My Dominant personality isn't something that is necessarily going to be reflective in that, either.

One of the reasons that I think I split these labels differently in My head is because I'm a later in life sadist. There was no topping and bottoming (the BDSM stuff) in My first dynamic. I just had all of the authority. Basically, I was Jeff without his particular willingness to top Carol if she found that it was a need for her and he decided it was what was best for their relationship. If I recall correctly, Kana, you've always had your sadistic side, so you may be more likely to blend it those things together.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 80

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