RE: What has happened? (Full Version)

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Aine -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 10:03:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I think bdsm is better today than it ever was before.  Before it was an esoteric field limited
to a few interested parties.  Today it is more democratic, more open, less formalized,
less dogmatic, less ritualistic, and less a religion with Popes of Rope.  I am happy at
it becoming more and more accepted.  In the past, there was little opportunity for the
average persoBDSM n to get into it.  It was almost impossible to find a compatible partner.
The old guard never recognized consensual nonconsensuality, or rather they played
with it, but condemned those who admitted to having an interest in it.   Many of the
old guard engaged in extreme edge play, and looked down on those who were not
looking for a 24 / 7 / 365   


I have no idea aside from what I've read or heard about through others older than myself when it comes to what BDSM used to be.  But in a way, I agree with what Whip says here.  Although things are certainly not perfect, never were and never will be, BDSM does seem to be more welcoming and more diverse and more open than it seemed to be in the past.

Though I see it as though perhaps back then, it was too closed off, and now it might be a bit too open to those that are not serious or just want to be trolls within the community.  It's a double edged sword if you ask me.




porcelaine -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 10:04:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?
 
Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?


I have wondered the same and wasn't born at that time. However, I believe it is the responsibility of the individual and the one they serve to implement the teachings and characteristics that compliment and bring value to one's character. It is a sad reality that many lack the capacity to entertain in a formal setting and have no knowledge of established etiquette practices or the art of conversation to name a few.

While it is easy to blame one's parents and surroundings at some point we are all accountable for what we never learned or experienced. What you speak of has not been lost or forgotten. The tenets and teachings many expounded are still practiced today. Probably not in the wide and open context that they were once shown in the past. Rituals and education are wonderful tools, but breeding and class are innately woven into our being. Some things simply cannot be taught.

porcelaine




SusanofO -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 10:15:37 AM)

This is probably a "petty detail" but - who really can tell how long bdsm has been around as a "life-style" really?

I know that there are some who might claim "it all started" w/either the Marquis DeSade (in a formal sense, as in being something one could actually name), or even w/the "Old Guard" guys in the 1970's. But - my guess is that it's an almost timeless phenomenon, going back to cave-man and woman days.

And, if that's true, which historic time period are we discussing here, as being the good old days? Are we restricting this discussion to "how things were" fifty years ago? I am simply one of those curious types of people.

If so, can someone please expound on what, specifically was better about this era? I only ask because I truly lack a frame of reference for this time period, as I wasn't yet born. No disrespect, or argument with the OP's POV is intended in any way.


If there is any question , I am the kind of person who truly does appreciate mannerly behavior, and try my darndest to exhibit same.
- Susan 




Fawne -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 10:20:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

Yes, I mean more the rituals, the elegance and the training in SM---it was so very formal. That is what I refer to actually---and yes there are many things from the past I would NEVER want to bring back. <smiles>


That elegance would be most charming.
 
I agree- today, on a whole rudeness ( especially lack of manners, respect) is accepted as a norm.
 
On this site, well, gulp... this girl is at times brutishly crude and vulgar.  Truly hope not to offend.
 
In RL, I am a nice, classy, lady of refinement..... you'd think butter wouldn't melt in my month [;)]

The late Princess Diana with a splash of Chris Rock...?
 
Thank you MH for promoting the civilized.
(Horses too!!)




LotusSong -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 10:29:57 AM)

Here is a way to decern the validity of "ways".. when you see an established D/s couple that have been together for longer than a few years... ask them what their "way" is.  Then evaluate it for yourself.  I think you will find a common thread amoung the successful and long term D/s relationships.




Sasy -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 10:30:01 AM)

I know I am diffeerent than many and alike some others. I  believe more in the discipline factors .. Not punishemnt... I believe that  with proper discipline it is not often that  true punishment comes into play. I also believe that a submissive must have good self esteem and self worth as well as be self disciplined. I am not high in the BDSM aspects and believe one should serve out of desire and be trained to her owners needs..... Thus maybe I am more to  the 50's ways of thinking that his house be kept in proper order .. she respond to him respectfully ... his meals should  be prepared and ready to his timing not what is convient to me.  His clothes should be to his desires starched or soften or all of the choices.  I also believe however there should  be kink involved to serve the needs of the couple ( okay 50's to a point ... I  prefer to share his bed *evil giggle*) Just sign me a kinky June Cleaver  Hmm and maybe all this done in dress and heels




onestandingstill -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 10:41:31 AM)

BDSM has changed over the years due to lack of effort, training, standards, self sacrifice and there are so very few people to use as good role models. I'd venture to say I only see like one in 2000 couples with any scrulples these days. It's a sad state of affairs that frustrates most of us for sure.
Suzanne




Emperor1956 -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 10:59:54 AM)

quote:

MH00314 said:  To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?
 
Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?


Not to piss in the breakfast cereal, but MH, where are your sources for this lost B/D/S/M nirvana?  Allow Me to suggest that it never existed.

In researching the "Old Guard" about 9 years ago ( in response to this same hearkening back to some "golden age" attitude in some local Chicago groups that I was a part of), I learned that the supposed history of ritual, training, Old Guard leathers, etc. was greatly exaggerated in the gay leather community and virtually nonexistent in the straight community (what there was of one). 

Taking your "50 year" mark, you'd be square in the period of  say 1952 - 1960, and going slightly forward.  In fact, in the USA there was virtually no open B/D/S/M activity at that time, and what deeply closeted behavior existed was almost entirely in the gay culture.  In Europe there were a few very scattered "houses" that claimed to train Dominas and occasionally Dominant men; most of these were in fact brothels which had a woman or two to cater to "special needs". 

There were, surely, B/D/S/M oriented motorcycle clubs/bar groups in this period.  These were almost entirely gay, and pretty deeply hidden.  While there were "leatherman" rituals, there was little as I can tell of formal training.  These organizations have a critical place in the history of WIIWD (regardless of gender orientation) but they absolutely did not promote the sort of "high tea and hankerchief" etiquette that I suspect the OP and others are longing for and claiming we have somehow lost.

Where does the myth of the "golden days" come from?  Well "Story of O" has a lot to answer for; "Roissy" became the high-brow fantasy training camp.  "Old Guard" gay leather culture forms another source (Remember, that Larry Townsend's "Leatherman's Handbook" was published in 1972 -- but you'd be amazed at folks who SWEAR it comes from 1955).  In the gay culture, the retro looking "Tom of Finland" graphics and such leads to a fantasy of some pre-AIDS, pre-Stonewall golden time.  John Norman and Laura Antinou both should probably be called to account, although in all fairness I don't know that either of them actually claim a historic tradition.  It is their readers who confuse fiction and myth with history.

So by all means, advocate for a more civil society both in and out of B/D/S/M.  I'd love to have a venue where WIIWD includes a formal tea, a ritual collaring space, some traditions and mentoring.  But don't claim that we've "lost" anything from a history that just doesn't exist.

E.

(Note on sources:  When I began looking at this stuff, I was totally lost.  The Internet was both wonderful in its breadth, and also totally inadequate in its authenticity.  I am trained as a researcher and investigator, and I learned early on that (DUH!) you couldn't reliably research sex, deviance, homoerotica etc. on the Web.  I got lucky, tho, and stumbled into the Leather Archives & Museum here in Chicago.  With the help of some dedicated and very smart folks, I was able to read materials in the collections.  I also spent a day at the Kinsey Institute researching "old guard" leather and hetero clubs.  Both of these organizations are wonderful and deserve your visit and your support.)







KennelDeSade2 -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:07:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?
 
Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?


Once there where legends of such things, long since debunked.

Just as a "Mona Lisa smile" really hid bad teeth.




SexyRed -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:08:22 AM)

I agree with some posters that the things that I miss from the "old days" are manners and respectful behavior to others (a quality entirely lacking online) and in the getting to know someone process.

Due to the instant gratification that many expect, so many people are alone and not able to connect simply because they expect someone to fulfill their dream of fantasies, without taking the time to actually get to know the inner being.

I really blame the internet for this. Not that people did not harbor fantasies throughout time, but I found that when I met people in the old days, we actually talked in real life, not the few second judgemental crap that happens online when someone wants to go directly to IM after a one line emai is sent.

And I think it is worse for those in the BDSM world. Because there are such strong needs here, the desperation which drives so many people, makes them unable to concentrate on what is important, the compatibility of each other, rather they concentrate on the BDSM aspects to such a degree that most often, communication breaks down and rudeness occurs.

This did not happen as much when people knew how to court each other.




Submotive -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:11:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

MH is a cultured, refined and beautiful lady whom many would do well to emulate. Plus, she used to be a cop and could probably billy club the crap out of most of us.

LMAO - regarding the "billy club". Ahem - however, yes MH is refined and cultured and beautiful and a wonderful friend and mentor.
[sm=flowers.gif]




MHOO314 -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:11:27 AM)

Actually, I am going to disagree with you, there was a very large center for SM in the San Francisco area for several years around the 50's 60's and 70's---though it was of course a secret "society", it was far from the gay community--and it was filled with ritual, etiquette, etc.  I would not expect that people from this world would be public or vocal---it simply would be out of character.




Mercnbeth -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:19:30 AM)

Damn - I'd ask, longingly, what happened to all the sleaze!





Wildfleurs -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:28:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?
 
Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?


Unless you are hitting about seventy, neither of us really know about what the SM community was like except from stories and articles (either written or verbal).  I think there is always a tendency to romanticize things of the past as having been all that much better.  The key question is always better for whom exactly? 

People romanticize how much easier it was to buy a house post WW2, except that it wasn't all that easy for blacks with the redlining of neighborhoods and blatant economic opression.... I know thats not quite on the topic but the point is that I find that there is a lot of glossing over of history that happens when the false nostalgia starts rearing its head.

I saw people mention things like formal teas, etc.  There *are* similar sorts of efforts/events in different parts of the US (in California there is a group that does formal dinners, plus a ladies group that does formal teas... in Maryland I *think* there is a ladies group that does formal teas... hell I'm doing a service D/s oriented wine tasting up here in New England as a preamble to doing a formal dinner in the future... I can't imagine that this is an exhaustive list of such efforts).   

C~

P.S. I've also done quite a bit of research on the evolution of the SM scene (I was blessed as an undergraduate with a passing interest in being a sociology major and going to a university with one of the oldest libraries in the nation) and while there was an SM scene in  San Francisco it was a leather scene that was 1) gay 2) clubs where you played.  Life Magazine (of all magazines) did an article/pictoral sort of thing of it in 1965, its really interesting to look at. 

But randomly mentioning a secret society, without a name or even a time period more specific than thirty years isn't really the best road to credibility on pining for the "good old days."




Emperor1956 -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:33:20 AM)

Evidence, Mistress?  Proof?  Pictures, journals, even oral histories? (the Leather Archives & Museum has a wonderful collection of oral histories which helped Me in my research).   Other than your statement, have you evidence of this supposed large center of S&M?

E




Submotive -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:37:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?
 
Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?

Greetings MH - once children called their mothers Ma'am and their fathers Sir. Haven't seen that in a long time either. Personally i believe that correct spelling, a degree of etiquette, even online, helps to promote the kind of world Master and i enjoy, and i believe You do as well.
 
i, for one, do hope to meet O/others of like mind who enjoy the more refined and ritualistic aspects of M/s, as it is truly where this girl's heart lies. i remember once literally sobbing after a munch because i felt that what i truly desired - reverence, respect, ritual, didn't exist anywhere. But, i have found it within the expectations and desires of my Master. And i agree - those of U/us who want it will just have to join together to create perhaps a "new society".
Warm regards Ma'am.
[sm=flowers.gif]




cloudboy -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:45:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

The dilemma with etiquette comes when it clashes with contemporary social agenda;


Everything's gone to pot since Duels went out of fashion. To compensate, I may take up fencing.




CreativeDominant -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:51:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?
 
Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?


While I wasn't around for exposure to D/s BDSM culture in the 50's (having been born in 55...ahhhhhhhhhh, such a young one I am), I do remember some of what was going on when I began getting involved just 10 years ago.  The group of dominants and submissives and switches I was involved with at first was a small group consisting mainly of people out here in the 'wilds' of eastern Colorado and western Nebraska.  Even had a few from that sinful state of Kansas.  There was a certain amount of decorum involved in these gatherings:  not necessarily involving calling a dominant "Sir" or "Ma'am" when you had only just met them but at least being courteous in manner towards each other.  And yes, when someone had gotten to know you and, if you had shown that you were worthy of it though it might be in other areas than just D/s and BDSM, you just might be accorded that slight show of respect.

There were arguments over many things...ritual, protocol, pain, pleasure, the importance of feelings, etc., etc., but they were carried on an intellectual level with not one person dismissing another's ideas as "horseshit".  Your expressed ideas might be greeted with "that's wrong...AND here's why" or "that seems like abuse to me...and here's why" or "how's that working for you?" (yes, the phrase does pre-date Dr. Phil) but they were listened to and you were helped to further them or shown why you should not.  As places opened up in Denver and N. Platte and somewhere closer than Kansas City, the group sort of fell apart but I remember it fondly and it was only 10 years ago.

Someone noted the need for instant self-gratification and the rudeness that exists not only in D/s and BDSM but in society in general.  It is true and not just among the younger folks, dismayingly.  At least with some of the younger folks, one could point to the disdain that many of the young of any generation has had for the ways of those who came before.  What do you say to those folks who were taught better and yet have embraced the idea that manners and courtesy are just a "false veneer" and "we like keeping it real, man".  Keeping it real?  Does that mean that in reality, life is not meant to be made a little better for the next person you deal with by being nice but instead it is better to state what you want, when you want it, however you wish to state it...and tough luck for the person who expects you to behave cordially because for you, that isn't "real"?

I like civility.  I like manners.  I think my posts have sometimes shown that I have no problem arguing a point with someone but they've also shown that I can do so without resorting to rudeness in the form of name-calling or dismissal of another.  The submissives I have been involved with, either long-term or short-term, have understood this and have felt the same way.  They liked being treated like a lady even as they were treated like a slut because the time they were treated as a slut was enjoyable and made more so by the recognition of the fact that they were a lady, deserving of treatment as such as long as they acted like one.




Emperor1956 -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:59:15 AM)

quote:

Everything's gone to pot since Duels went out of fashion. To compensate, I may take up fencing.


Ahhh...pistoles at 20 paces, Senor?   Well, a good round of duels would probably clear out the Dom population around here!

In a similar note, I can't read this thread without hearing the duet from Chicago, "Class"

E




LotusSong -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 12:36:04 PM)

I think what is most frustrating to the newbys is.. when they ask "how to do it"- they are given so much info and the "it's all good" attitude they feel a bit lost.  They talk about a "real" dom/me or sub/slave and they want to know what "real" is - and there is no consensus as to get there.  Then people get defensive when questioned about were they got their training and such.  Heck- like everyone else..  make it up as you go along.




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