RE: What has happened? (Full Version)

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AAkasha -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 8:39:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Hathor,

You drop in a post about a secret society to back up your contention that S&M has gone to hell.  You going to back that up?


And betray the privacy and secrecy? NO.


One could argue that even if it were like it was in the times you're talking about, the secrecy and selection process would have weeded out those that lacked tact and sophistication. Such "secret societies" very  likely still exist today, but they don't go around posting munch notices and open their doors to anyone.  You have to be invited by someone who is already in the group, and you have to abide by their strict rules of privacy.   The problem is finding these groups, because they don't advertise, and they don't go to the munches and handpick who they believe might behave themselves in a different setting.

Certainly people don't think the public munches and play parties are the only bdsm society that exists?  Where do all the politicians, supermodels, actors and millionaires network for kink?  Certainly not out in the open. 

Akasha




MzTlaz -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 8:43:53 AM)

I'm all for elegance, refinement, class and rituals in the scene....anyone seeing me at one of the dungeon clubs would probably attest to that as I tend to stick out like a sore thumb...lol!  I see a lot of people mimicking what they see in BDSM porn, in attire and behaviour, which really isn't the best example to imitate....it's just a sad fact that this is how the Lifestyle is portrayed these days and so much more so with the web.

Not having been around fifty years ago I don't know if the formality written about in books like "The Story of O" really existed or was just fantasy but I do think a lot of us are attracted to that kind of style and would love to see and partake in it.  I have a feeling it exists in more of a private arena, where there can be more control because I think it's the minority of people who want that...it seems so many just get into BDSM for kinky sex and the D/s, M/s element isn't important.

I'm also one who believes the Lifestyle is based on some important qualities....honor, integrity, respect and trust....but it seems that to so many these are just words.  How often I hear people say "How dare you question my honor/integrity?"  but....I welcome people to question mine, you don't test the integrity of a ship without putting it in the water!  




MHOO314 -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 8:45:01 AM)

and the point of this post is NOT to determine the efficacy of secret societies--it was to discuss the loss of elegance, dignity and ritual that gave way to the vulgarity, brashness, and crudeness of today.

and as Akasha says, where do you think the famous people go?




Homestead -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 8:46:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Hathor,

You drop in a post about a secret society to back up your contention that S&M has gone to hell.  You going to back that up?


And betray the privacy and secrecy? NO.


One could argue that even if it were like it was in the times you're talking about, the secrecy and selection process would have weeded out those that lacked tact and sophistication. Such "secret societies" very  likely still exist today, but they don't go around posting munch notices and open their doors to anyone.  You have to be invited by someone who is already in the group, and you have to abide by their strict rules of privacy.   The problem is finding these groups, because they don't advertise, and they don't go to the munches and handpick who they believe might behave themselves in a different setting.

Certainly people don't think the public munches and play parties are the only bdsm society that exists?  Where do all the politicians, supermodels, actors and millionaires network for kink?  Certainly not out in the open. 

Akasha



I do not participate in uncontolled public venues. My friends in kink and myself pick each other, and I tend to be neither formal or crude.




CrappyDom -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 8:48:14 AM)

quote:

And betray the privacy and secrecy? NO.


Uh, YOU already did that! 

Sorry but I am going to tack you up with those who belong to secret European BDSM houses who's only actual secrets are that they don't exist.

To ME, to call it a "society" it has to have members in more than one area and has to have a few hundred members.  Considering the drama that surrounds S&M groups, I find it hard to believe that one could exist for 50 years and not have a single jilted ex out the group.  Not to mention keep it secret in an area as small as the San Francisco Bay Area.




gooddogbenji -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 8:52:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

and the point of this post is NOT to determine the efficacy of secret societies--it was to discuss the loss of elegance, dignity and ritual that gave way to the vulgarity, brashness, and crudeness of today.



And, as many have said, that is either still here or never was here, depending on which parts of it you look at.  It was you who brought up the secret society thing.

I agree with other posters - in my research, I have found no real evidence of a "better" way 50 years ago.  I have spoken to older Dommes who were part of a better group than the norm, who were properly mentored & trained, but the group of people I associate with also believe in mentoring & training new Dommes.  Not much has changed with these people.  We are not overly formal, we do not call each other by titles or what not, but elegance and dignity certainly still exist among my group.

Granted, there are lots of people we choose to not associate with.  Rude, dishonest, unsafe, borderline retarded people.  But I am sure those have always existed.

Yours,


benji




CrappyDom -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 8:53:53 AM)

quote:

discuss the loss of elegance, dignity and ritual


As someone who makes a bit of a fetish of the above three, I have found that the problem with them and the reason I doubt you are telling the truth is that I have found that while many love the above words, few see them as having the same meaning.  So creating a society dedicated to them means finding a large group who like the same rituals, like the same sort of elegance, and see dignity in the same fashion.

As the threads here show time after time, everyone has a VERY different opionion of what those words mean.  I founded my own group to explore those concepts and found that there was no common ground but found other ways to explore those things.  While that could certainly be my failing, I think that the discussions here about what those things mean shows otherwise.

Now, I am sure you could elaborate on the rituals and levels of elegance this so called secret society has set as standards without violating anything and I would think the resultant discussion WOULD be educational for all.




CrappyDom -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 10:19:21 AM)

Don't you just love people who talk about secret societies they can't talk about.




Homestead -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 10:22:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Don't you just love people who talk about secret societies they can't talk about.


I can't really talk about My vast collection of magical fairy dust either. Tinkerbelle will smite me, if I utter the secret words that summon her, to others.[:D]




BuxomGoddess714 -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 11:02:41 AM)

One word:

THE INTERNET

When I became involved with BDSM 32 years ago, there was no information out there.  I searched thru European newspapers just so I could read what people were into who were like me.  We bought our toys at the hardware store and the pet store.  Now, people see BDSM scenes, get horny, decide they are into BDSM, give themselves a label (or many to cover as much ground as possible in their fake profiles) and INSTANT GRATIFICATION MAGIC just like their Ipod, Microwave, SpaceShuttle, PlayStation and jerking off instead of finding a relationship they are into BDSM.

No, that is NOT how it used to be.

Kid yourselves all you want.  And yes, We control who we surround ourselves with.  So be very picky.

There are just as few TRUE lifestylers in society as there were 30 years ago.  The internet has just made it slightly easier to get in contact with eachother.  But W/we also have to weed thru and listen to alot of BS from weekend warriors, people playing online games in online relationships (what the hell is that all about? BDSM is NOT a fantasy life, it is VERY much about a severe, daily 24 hour reality people), people jerking off, posers, Tops pretending to be Dominant, Bottoms pretending to be submissive, and a whole bunch of people that don't know the difference.  It's not an age thing.  It's a lack of Realness and Truth.  I have met very sincere young people who wanted to learn the Lifestyle.  They submitted to the knowledge of those wiser then they.  THAT is what the lifestyle is about.  The 19 year old girl on here who calls herself "The One True Goddess" and is "Dominating" (scening) with boys for money....  THAT is shameful and disgusting.  The One True Goddess is the Creator of the Universe for people who believe in that.  One doesn't take money to be Who She is.  It's not about scenes.  It's not about sex (DO NOT FLAME ME AND SAY PRO DOMMES DONT HAVE SEX... LOL  ITS ALL ABOUT SEX, JERKING OFF IS SEX GET A REAL JOB).  It is about a 24/7/365 Life and when You live it for 32 years, your close friends will ALL be Doms and/or subs, many with Poly households because it IS a LIFESTYLE.
 
Goddess




Slipstreme -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 11:16:32 AM)

Funny thing about rituals, one can say that if done without meaning, or purpose they are useless. So to be drawn to the act is one thing, being drawn to the meaning, in my opinion should be the reason for the ritual. You could also say that when the original meaning is lost, or converted to fit a more modern day and age, then the ritual has no purpose, But does it?

Dignity and Elegance are very vague words. What is elegant to someone is different for others. For one, I am not considered elegant by any standards, because I act very "male" in the body of a female. Elegance seems to desire social decorum, which according to what an individual thinks is right, will change that decorum, and I for the most part, still won't fit in, even with southern politeness instilled in my upbringing.

Dignity, personal dignity or social dignity? Depends on what is under that category. If being truthful, and sincere fits under dignity, then I apply. However, if fitting accepted models, and dressing "appropriately" is dignity, than I don't.

Just something to think about. Where your milage is, is not where everyone else's is.

I was not alive to see the days gone by, and so, being this is all I know, I am happy for it and appreciative.




Sunshine119 -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 2:08:41 PM)

*fast reply*

I just want to learn to act and move like a Geisha (without having my feet bound).  While not necessarily SM, it did show very empowered submissive women.  Ah...and the grace!




thetammyjo -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 2:12:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?

Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?


When was this again?

Is this more of the "Golden Age" that folks in all parts of life have longed for since at least as long written documents have been around?




Dauric -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 2:34:28 PM)

Took me a while to find this:

"The earth is degenerating today, Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man want's to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching."
         -- Assyrian Tablet, c. 2800 BC

'nuff said.

Admission to the museum is $0.02

Dauric




behindmirrors -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 3:14:29 PM)

I found this topic to be quite engaging and felt I should weigh in my experiences as well.

I agree that much of today's culture seems to have slipped downhill in formality- and also that some things are romanticized about the past of any culture- even this one. I find it interesting how strange my life has been in comparison to those of my friends, however, simply for how I was raised, as I had an upbringing quite different than the time I lived. I was born in 1984.

I am the first of my generation on both sides of my family. Being female, and having "socially elite" grandparents and living great-grandparents, quite a bit was expected of my upbringing. My parents were more or less low-key types, and did not like the strictness of their parent's homes, but since we lived in the same city as all of these relatives, they had fundamental roles in how I was raised from the get-go, especially when both of my parents were working or finishing master's degrees and I was under their care.

As a child, and a girl, I was not permitted to wear any form of pants unless I was horseback riding for most of my early childhood. Still to this day, my grandparents will take it as a sign of disrespect for them if I wear jeans in their home. Although when my family moved when I was ten to a different city a thousand miles away they no longer enforced this, I spent that first decade of my life with the expectation that I was to be a "little lady".

I was sent to charm school from the ages of four through ten as well. This was in addition to countless hours of ballet, being a runway model for children's clothing, and to regular schooling typical for children. In charm school, I learned to gracefully accept a waltz, prepare and serve or be served at a high tea, to arrange a formal dinner table, and many other seemingly archaic graces. It was expected that I knew these things in my family, and that I was able to do them well. Many hours were spent making sure I had perfect posture, that I was able to hold still when in the company of others, that I was polite at all times, and that when attending church I always had perfectly clean white gloves and a hat on. My stillness and quiet "children are seen and not heard" demeanor were greatly appreciated by the artists who I would sit for when they needed a fill in for a portrait of a girl or wished to have a subject.  As a result of my upbringing in a time unlike the one my family was having me live, I was often misunderstood by my peers and ridiculed for my strange ways, increasing my naturally shy nature. We moved just before my sister was to start a similar education, and I was at least spared the debutante "coming out" ball, which my grandparents were planning eight years in advance of my eighteenth birthday.

When we moved, I had much more freedom. Jeans were no longer the ultimate symbol of disrespect, and pants were allowed for their practicality. It took me years to feel comfortable in a pair of jeans, but I liked being able to wear pants and allowed to have a somewhat "normal" life outside of the reach of my grandparents. When they would come for visits or vice versa, though, all things were different. I remember their appalled faces when I was walking out the door to school one day with a pair of combat boots on. I was rebelling, and they never recovered, I think.

I was awkward and a tomboy in many ways. I'm quite athletic, but have the refinement of a ballet dancer as well (never gave up that training, haha). I am a living dichotomy- balanced between my own love of loud music, piercings, tattoos, subcultures, and the fact that I have an appreciation for social graces and never forgot my upbringing- I am still a refined person, but I am a refined person with her tongue pierced, amongst other body modifications. I can swear like a sailor, have a great time in a mosh pit, and still maintain a sense of dignity.

As a submissive, my Dom has taken great pleasure in my archaic social graces. It is natural to me to do these things, to know them and understand them after so many years. I can entertain guests well, serve dinners and teas to exacting standards, and dance well. My posture is quite good, and I know how to show respect to those around me. Be it a barbecue or a black tie dinner, I can make those there comfortable and serve him well. I am obviously also very modest *laughs*. This is important to him as I am a reflection of him, and he is glad to not have to do much in that aspect of my training.

So, does refinement still exist in the lifestyle? Yes and no. To some, I am sure it is of considerable value, and to others, it is seen as a hinderance to their style. Neither way may be entirely wrong, but each must decide for themselves what works for them and what doesn't.

I apologize for the extreme length- I was not expecting to ramble like that.
behindmirrors.




DedicatedDom40 -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 4:24:47 PM)


The loss of momentum in culture, class, etc and the sense of entitlement that we see in younger generations, both inside and outside the lifestyle, is related to the loss of the middle class in this country, and the polarization of everybody to the extreme sides (rich or poor).  Those $25/hr high school grad jobs of the past had built and distributed a lot of middle class personal equity, and provided the younger generations of the 1950s and 60s the opportunity to own assets, such as housing (and dungeons, if thats your thing), a lot quicker than they do now. Today, those jobs have been replaced by a new generation of $6/hr jobs at Walmart.  Our economy has shifted from making steel and autos to consuming cheap foreign imports which are designed to be thrown away prematurely.

The majority of Americans pay for these consumables by taking on credit card debt or extracting what little equity they have built up in their homes via home equity loans. We essentially have a consumer-based economy today that is DESIGNED to take what little distributed equity that remains in the middle and lower class and transfers it to the upper class. Without this surreptitious transfer of wealth, our economy stalls.

It took 224 years (1776-2000), 42 presidents, and 5 major wars to create a government debt of 5.6 trillion

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdhisto4.htm

We have practically doubled that in the past 6 years alone (2001-2006) under one administration's watch (although, this isn't a Bush-bashing exercise, the real finger of blame points to Republican control of 2 branches of government).  Our debt currently sits at 8.5 trillion, with a congressional ceiling of 9 trillion. The ceiling was last raised in 2004 from 8.2 trillion during the John Snow era at Treasury.

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpdodt.htm

No rational person can conclude the war on terror is the cause of such spikes in our debt.  The issue is pure theft, similar in scope to the Savings & Loan debacle of the mid-80s, except we are using terrorism as the trigger rather than deregulation. While we do have legitimate enemies out there in the world, just as we did in the 1940s, this whole built-up "war on terror" crusade is just a smokescreen to hide the looting of government coffers that is being orchestrated by some segments of the upper class in the name of patriotism and defense.  This type of organized theft by "fiscal conservatives" (rolling my eyes) makes Ken Lay and Bernie Ebbers look like rank amateurs. 

I have seen countless new profiles on lifestyle websites coming from those who are lost in this polarized existance, disillusioned by their predicament, and who are trying to find "a safe place to exist" in the world.  With regards to finances and education, most younger people facing those WalMart salaries have pretty bleak futures, so they seek out this lifestyle in some type of submission-in-trade-for-being-taken-care-of arrangement. The fundamentals of their entrance into this lifestyle is economic, rather than inner-spiritually motivated.

As a humorous postscript, the other day I got a notice that my bank is going to start charging customers who pay their bills online.  The customers now have to pay the financial institution for the privilege of paying their bills in a manner that saves the financial institution the labor costs of processing the paper check.  The rich are now demanding payment for the privilege of the poor and middle class to be able to pay the rich in a more convenient manner.  Now, was it not greedy nonsense like this, running around unchecked, which precipitated the dumping of tea into the harbor in the first place?

Our next war isn't going to be against some nuke-toting radical foreign population.  Its going to be an economic civil war right here on home soil.





zenofeller -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 5:35:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314
and the point of this post is NOT to determine the efficacy of secret societies--it was to discuss the loss of elegance, dignity and ritual that gave way to the vulgarity, brashness, and crudeness of today.

and as Akasha says, where do you think the famous people go?


oy enough already. there is no such place, and if there were you wouldn't be on the guest list. okay ? we don't buy the crap so just let it rest.




KennelDeSade2 -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 9:59:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BuxomGoddess714
One word:
THE INTERNET
When I became involved with BDSM 32 years ago, there was no information out there.

Well, when I became involved with BDSM 12 years ago, there was plenty of information out there.  The only problem was that most of it was manufactured from whole cloth.  "The Great Houses of Europe and the Orient" where all the rage.  Old Guard Famlies where where the elite where bred and finished.  Fantasy.  Puffery.  Fraud.

quote:


I searched thru European newspapers just so I could read what people were into who were like me.  We bought our toys at the hardware store and the pet store.  Now, people see BDSM scenes, get horny, decide they are into BDSM, give themselves a label (or many to cover as much ground as possible in their fake profiles) and INSTANT GRATIFICATION MAGIC just like their Ipod, Microwave, SpaceShuttle, PlayStation and jerking off instead of finding a relationship they are into BDSM.

Well, gag me with a spoon!  Shucks, them there all a cultured eurotrash folks, dey sure do hab dat culture all sewed up, dad gum it!  No more high tea and being reamed with the ebony strap on with gold inlay to prove you can take it and be a REAL TOP! 
I happen to like the Shuttle, iPod, Microwave, and horrors, relationships as well.  Thank you, I'll forgo the mental masturbation over the good old days that never happened.

quote:


No, that is NOT how it used to be.
Kid yourselves all you want.  And yes, We control who we surround ourselves with.  So be very picky.
There are just as few TRUE lifestylers in society as there were 30 years ago.  The internet has just made it slightly easier to get in contact with eachother.  But W/we also have to weed thru and listen to alot of BS from weekend warriors, people playing online games in online relationships (what the hell is that all about? BDSM is NOT a fantasy life, it is VERY much about a severe, daily 24 hour reality people), people jerking off, posers, Tops pretending to be Dominant, Bottoms pretending to be submissive, and a whole bunch of people that don't know the difference.


And fat bitchy old women pretending to be all superior goddesses?  Fates save me from the "True Lifestylers" of the world.  BDSM is not a fantasy life?  Well, I'm not real sure how much by the hour reality I'd care for, but to each their own.

quote:


It's not an age thing.  It's a lack of Realness and Truth.  I have met very sincere young people who wanted to learn the Lifestyle.  They submitted to the knowledge of those wiser then they.  THAT is what the lifestyle is about.  The 19 year old girl on here who calls herself "The One True Goddess" and is "Dominating" (scening) with boys for money....  THAT is shameful and disgusting.  The One True Goddess is the Creator of the Universe for people who believe in that.  One doesn't take money to be Who She is.

I figure if you can pull the wagon, you can call yourself a horse.
Submission to the knowledge of those wiser?  Well, I'll be a believer when I see some demonstration of aforementioned wisdom.  And submission to knowledge?  What knowledge?  How quallified?  Are there written tests and state boards to be taken?

quote:


It's not about scenes.  It's not about sex (DO NOT FLAME ME AND SAY PRO DOMMES DONT HAVE SEX... LOL  ITS ALL ABOUT SEX, JERKING OFF IS SEX GET A REAL JOB).  It is about a 24/7/365 Life and when You live it for 32 years, your close friends will ALL be Doms and/or subs, many with Poly households because it IS a LIFESTYLE.


BDSM is not about sex.  Life is not about breathing.  Fact is not how loudly you speak.
As for what it IS?  Like life. . . . It's what we make of it.  Nothing more.




CrappyDom -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 10:21:49 PM)

I think it is time once again....


For those who do not know of me

An Acolyte brought it to my attention that there may be those among you who are unaware of who and what I am.  I am a Dominant of the 12th Order, a house so ancient, its origins are shrouded in the history of time, although our accomplishments are not, as we are the most respected house in all of Europe.  I myself began my training while in the womb and have continued that education unending until the present day although there are few Elders left with enough knowledge to add to my own.

In the coming year I myself shall join those hallowed ranks of Elders and thus the cycle continues.  I realize to many of you, men such as myself are the stuff of myths and legends, but I am real flesh and blood. 

For those who have never had the honor of being graced with my presence and yet wish to offer the proper greetings, I thought I would outline the required etiquette.  While this various from house to house, it is the 12th Order that other houses seek to emulate so this etiquette will serve you well.

When conducting introductions, one always presents the inferior party to the superior party.  Just as one would never introduce the Queen to anyone else, one would never introduce a superior Dominant to an inferior, it is the inferior Dominant who is introduced to the superior ranking Dominant.  When Dominants of equal rank are introduced, the one from the inferior house that is introduced to the equal Dominant from the superior house.

When a Dominant or a Domme is presented to someone from a superior house, such as mine, it is proper to cross your arms across your chest and to glance downward until recognized.  This signifies that I am free to do as I wish but that you defer actions to me.  The downward glance signifies that you acknowledge your house is inferior to mine.

When a submissive is introduced, the correct greeting varies according to the sex of the submissive.  Females should arch their backs so as to present their breasts proudly but both lower their gaze and clasp their hands behind their backs.  Males should simply turn their wrists so that the inside of the palms of the hands face inwards and press the wrists together as if bound.

I look forward to meeting some of you and while I will not admonish you publicly for failing to adhere to the above, expect me to take you aside and correct you.




LordDarkPleasure -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 10:48:53 PM)

I only read the thread quickly, and all I have to say is this:  Its easier to spot a beautiful rose in a yellow grass yard littered with dog shit than in a than carefully maintained garden.  It always makes me laugh when people say things were better before because people never change.  There has always been as much diversity of people, bad AND GOOD, as there always were.  It's just that people have less manners now for various reasons.  It is actually better in my opinion because now people are much more easy to read, and you spend less time noticing a person's flaws now that they aren't hidden behind good manners.




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