RE: What has happened?

RE: What has happened? (Full Version)

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ArdRiNahEireann -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 12:40:58 PM)
I'm with SusanofO on this one. D/s and BDSM (to use current labels/acronyms) have existed as part of human relationships and as part of human lifestyles since whenever (or even before) Homo Sapiens first became erect, long before De Sade, Leatherboys, Bikers or Me. Manners, etiquette and style have evolved and changed through various cultures and sub-cultures throughout time and are reflected in fashions, tastes and individual behaviours and every 'generation' has a tendency to look back wistfully at the the good old days, forgetting as they/we gaze through rose tinted glasses that there were probably even more bad old days back then. Throughout time indivduals or groups in various locations have adopted, adapted and even invented practices for their own purposes, enjoyment and fulfillment and as they say around here 'more power to their elbows'. Laying claim to being the 'First' to do anything in human endevour often needs careful clarification to retain validity. For example, 'The Leather community ' no more 'invented' BDSM in America than Christopher Columbus was the first to 'discover' it. All that being said, D/s, BDSM does not intrinsically require specialised ritual, stylised behaviours or communities codifying these. All such are choices or preferences of each particpant. Nor are D/s, BDSM of any particular style or grouping, special havens for courtesy, respect, honour and general good manners etc. These are the characteristic which only individuals can possess. So come on in, or go out there and enjoy it your way, the old way, the new way or any way. Just be safe and do no real harm.

Owned1 -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 1:44:20 PM)
Master and i belong to a group that is strict and works on old world type training and structure. To be honest i was not sure at the outset if i would "fit in" or a better way of saying it would be i was not sure if i could behave <wink> Much to my surprise i do enjoy the group. Similar to our relationship the lines are clearly defined and we can each be what we truly are. There is no back stabbing and gossiping, the Dominants are in control and the sub/slaves are the ones taking direction. Owned

popeye1250 -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 1:57:49 PM)
I don't think manners ever go out of style. Unfortunately, many people didn't seem to have parents who taught them manners. That's one of the things I enjoy and noticed about moving here to the South, even children are brought up the "old way" here and call adults "Sir" and "Ma'am." And I noticed right away that people are much friendlier here too.

Slipstreme -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 3:37:48 PM)
quote: Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back? It depends on the people involved. Whether or not days of old are important to people today. Society is changing as is the subculture, and I believe, it will always change. There are pros to todays brand of S&M: openness to Switches, be they D/s switches or S&M switches, something I heard was absent from days of old. Supposedly you were one or the other not both. So the concept of "sadomasochist" would not be acceptable. Another is inclusion. More open to new blood. With new blood, comes new ideas, some good, some bad. Whether or not a culture will use formality depends on the culture. I know my generation is a very informal laid back generation. I highly doubt it would take kindly as a whole to the ideas of strict rituals, guidelines and rules. Another thing I've realized in the here and now is there is a merging of two communities that seems to be taking place: The body modification community and the S&M community. People who love pain, for the sake of pain, are finally being accepted into a community that typically, as a whole, holds higher ideals about pain experience, the soul, and rites of passage, beyond mere enjoyment. (Been looking into hook suspension, piercings, scars and tats, hence noticing this trend with the newer generation.) Admittedly, no culture will ever have what you are going to be comfortable with, or what you would prefer for any long length of time. You can't stop a society from evolving, but you can support those who hold on to times of old, and the activities of old, and teach those who are coming into the lifestyle that which you know and value, to save the remnants of time gone by.

sharainks -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 4:07:20 PM)
Popeye, my dad always said "Common courtesy, good manners and good grooming will never really go out of style." However, I think that much of what is seen in the lifestyle now is a reflection of the society around us. The overt rudeness we see in people today, the inconsideration of others in public places, the profanity, and the lack of manners is society wide. We can't expect people to suddenly acquire inside the bdsm community what they don't have outside it.

angielouwhos -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 8:32:02 PM)
This is one of the things that saddens me a lot. We have lost the decorum and formality of the past and even though we gained more acceptence of diversity and openess, its hard to not go through a day and see vulgarity or rudeness. Even the entertainment of today fines humor in it. I believe in kinkiness and civility.

Homestead -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 9:02:28 PM)
By not thinking with our gonads?

HarryVanWinkle -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 9:04:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aine quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip I think bdsm is better today than it ever was before. Before it was an esoteric field limited to a few interested parties. Today it is more democratic, more open, less formalized, less dogmatic, less ritualistic, and less a religion with Popes of Rope. I am happy at it becoming more and more accepted. In the past, there was little opportunity for the average persoBDSM n to get into it. It was almost impossible to find a compatible partner. The old guard never recognized consensual nonconsensuality, or rather they played with it, but condemned those who admitted to having an interest in it. Many of the old guard engaged in extreme edge play, and looked down on those who were not looking for a 24 / 7 / 365 I have no idea aside from what I've read or heard about through others older than myself when it comes to what BDSM used to be. But in a way, I agree with what Whip says here. Although things are certainly not perfect, never were and never will be, BDSM does seem to be more welcoming and more diverse and more open than it seemed to be in the past. Though I see it as though perhaps back then, it was too closed off, and now it might be a bit too open to those that are not serious or just want to be trolls within the community. It's a double edged sword if you ask me. I have to agree with both of the young whippersnappers (and snappies) above. The crudeness, lewdness and just disrespectfulness that many complain about, I see almost entirely in the so-called "Online BDSM Community." Among the R/T BDSM Community, I see very little of it. What I do see is a lot more diversity, people with different kinks than the "Old Guard" coming out of the closet and being themselves, not pretending to be what some Authority Figure says they should be. To them I say, "There's strength in numbers. Although your kink may not be my kink, welcome to the club." I had a talk once with an "Old Guarder." And I mean a real one, a gay man from San Fransisco from the 40s and 50s. I asked him about the "tradition" that one must be a slave before one can become a Master and the reason for it. His explanation, "We were a bunch of horndogs who wanted new meat!"

Evanesce -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 9:14:50 PM)
quote: Yes, I mean more the rituals, the elegance and the training in SM---it was so very formal. That is what I refer to actually---and yes there are many things from the past I would NEVER want to bring back. <smiles> With all due respect, I've been doing a bit of digging into the "history" of the lifestyle off and on over the past several years, and the articles I've read and the people I've spoken with who were there decades ago tell a much less elegant tale. Here's one site of many that will provide a little more information: http://www.tdl.com/~thawley/history.htm I found Jay Wiseman's "Essay about the Old Days" rather interesting. Regardless... We've come out into the open in recent years, which is a major contributing factor in the loss of ritualized protocols. We're also much less insular, although I've seen a number of groups go back behind closed doors for one reason or another.

Arpig -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 10:11:46 PM)
quote: To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others? Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back? The elegance etc. still exists, just as the vulgarity always did. It is misleading to speak of a "community" in a BDSM context (or just an SM context), there is no community, just a bunch of people with somewhat similar perversions. There have always been those who are into the crude and vulgar, just as there have always been (and still are) those who are into the rituals and refinement and training that you miss.

zenofeller -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 10:41:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MHOO314 To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others? such bullshit. first off, 50 years ago there was no such thing. 40 years ago, at most, is what you must be talking about. if not 30. refinement and class ? get the fuck out. leathermen, gender bias, violence, not even the vagues attempt to communicate... glorifying some past golden age of sm is, to my eyes, certain and indubitable proof that the glorifier is new to the entire thing. sm never had a golden age.

NastyDaddy -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:01:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MHOO314 To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others? ...where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back? It started with the transition from black and white televisions to color sets, then came digital clocks and microwave ovens, fast food joints on each corner, mass transportaion and airline travel... then ALGOR invented the internet, so everybody got a computer. Some people didn't know how to handle the convenience of ALGOR's invention... and obviously have reproduced enmasse! Don't forget the old tymes you spoke of were also before the days of manned space flight, Corvettes, 24/7 availability of booze and drugs (many new ones since 50 years ago), cell phones, GPS navigation, and bordered with the feminist era.... lots of changes from then til now. Add to that the art of music and video streaming booty shaking and gender hating/abuse into daily cuisine... lots of changes. 50 years ago a high school girl in the midwest could not fall in love with a closer to 30 year old middle eastern prince.... cook up a scheme to get a passport and then haul ass on an airliner to meet her newfound prince... but today it's almost the norm. Did high school kids fly down to and party down in Aruba 50 years ago? It's a much smaller world now, and many many more people... extreme sports and extreme attitudes...

CrappyDom -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:17:16 PM)
I just have to call bullshit on this one. Unless your idea of a "society" lines up with Ladyhugs and only requires about 8 people. I have spent a lot of time in the SF scene, I know Jay Wiseman a bit, I have partied at private dungeons, belonged to some of the smaller more exclusive groups and I have never heard anything like what you are suggesting. I have spent time digging around for exactly such a society as the concept appeals greatly to me and the only "ancient" small exclusive group I have ever heard of is Gemini and that started in 1978. There were straight people into S&M and fetish stuff in the 1950s, there were magazines and I am sure tiny little isolated groups but by that very definition then, it wasn't a great big society that is "lost". As for the gays, come on, those are the guys who invented glory holes and drag queens, so they have their sleezy and cheesy side as well. The '50s were great as long as you were a protestant white male and sucked for pretty much everyone else. Funny thing about all that wishing for respect crap. I am treated in the manner you refer too, but oddly enough I treat others in that fashion as well.

Emperor1956 -> RE: What has happened? (8/15/2006 11:40:20 PM)
There are color Televisions? grin E.

MHOO314 -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 7:15:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sharainks Popeye, my dad always said "Common courtesy, good manners and good grooming will never really go out of style." However, I think that much of what is seen in the lifestyle now is a reflection of the society around us. The overt rudeness we see in people today, the inconsideration of others in public places, the profanity, and the lack of manners is society wide. We can't expect people to suddenly acquire inside the bdsm community what they don't have outside it. Ahhh very well said--I wonder at times how some cultures have maintained traditions for centuries and others cannot keep something for longer than a day---- I don't think respect and dignity should ever go out of style----respect as CrappyDom stated should be "shared" in order to be received in return----respect for the incredilbe human that stands before you---respect for the vessel in which that heart beats and that soul lives--dignity of body, mind and heart---keeping things sacred and intimate versus public and common---- but there are still pebbles in the pond---those still trying to live by the standards of basic humaness in and out of the "life".

CrappyDom -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 8:02:12 AM)
Hathor, You drop in a post about a secret society to back up your contention that S&M has gone to hell. You going to back that up?

Homestead -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 8:19:52 AM)
Golden ages were always myths. This is yet another.

MHOO314 -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 8:21:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom Hathor, You drop in a post about a secret society to back up your contention that S&M has gone to hell. You going to back that up? And betray the privacy and secrecy? NO.

gooddogbenji -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 8:38:51 AM)
I blame Nucular power. Yours, benji

KennelDeSade2 -> RE: What has happened? (8/16/2006 8:39:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MHOO314 quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom Hathor, You drop in a post about a secret society to back up your contention that S&M has gone to hell. You going to back that up? And betray the privacy and secrecy? NO. Well...... It seems like a fairly poor idea to use as "proof" an example that you are unwilling to support. I might as well claim a long Gorean tradition, and require you take the aliens and their silver space ships, on faith. There have always been small insular groups practicing the strangest things in this country. However, they do not in whole or in part form what most of us would consider a "tradition" of any sort. Secret societies leave tracks. Masons, AMORC, The John Birch Society, etc., etc., etc. Great famlies can still be found. The golden age of BDSM is a fiction created by people who want to belong to something ancient and grand, but it just ain't TRUE.

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