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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/7/2007 10:37:53 AM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		I am probably going to sound very controversial now but I don't think anyone should be involved in this lifestyle except within a committed relationship. Where both of you know where you stand in the other's life. A Dom/me should be prepared for the responsibility of ownership and a submissive has the right to know that their Dom/me will provide all the care that he or she needs on an ongoing basis. It maybe a different kind of loving but it should still be about love. As has been mentioned the psychological effects of our way of life can be of great benefit to both parties and the destruction that can be caused by lack of knowledge and communication can be tantamount to murder. Everyone should ask themselves why? After a complete mental breakdown and a total psychological  study that I have done on myself I know why. It's sometimes nature but I think it is more often nurture and nurture can be undone with help if someone wants to badly enough.

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/7/2007 10:46:50 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

I am probably going to sound very controversial now but I don't think anyone should be involved in this lifestyle except within a committed relationship.


Forgive me, but this line from your profile seems contradictory.

quote:

However not everyone is ready for TPE so I am happy to play. I like playing. 


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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/7/2007 10:52:06 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

A Dom/me should be prepared for the responsibility of ownership and a submissive has the right to know that their Dom/me will provide all the care that he or she needs on an ongoing basis. .


quote:

 As has been mentioned the psychological effects of our way of life can be of great benefit to both parties and the destruction that can be caused by lack of knowledge and communication can be tantamount to murder.


Thank you for so clearly demonstrating why I say some people have zero business doing BDSM!  Expecting someone else to take full and complete care of you is murdering yourself in an emotional sense is coodependent on many levels and is the root of far more problems than anything else other than chatrooms.  Equating a bad relationship to murder is drama to the extreme and is exactly the sort of BS that I am speaking about.


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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/7/2007 12:16:18 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I do not have a scientific study about subspace, but the body's reaction to pain is well known. neurology and biochemistry is in its infancy, but every emotional state has a neuro-signature. I hope there is more credible information on subspace as an altered state of consciousness, but as of yet there are no studies. I would study it myself if it were my field...lol. But alas, I am not a biologist or a neurologist. I have researched about neurotransmitters and what they are finding out about how they are related to emotional states.

Having experienced subspace euphoria I can tell you that there really is no doubt it is a physical, emotional, and in some cases spiritual experience. People have been inflicting pain on themselves through sensory deprivation, actually flogging and cutting themselves for different motivations throughout the annals of history.... there is something that happens inside the brain, they have documented the endorphin response, but my thoughts are that there is more to subspace. I can run 5 miles and feel pretty euphoric, but it is not exactly the same chemical reaction as I have when I am aroused by pain or when he sends me over the edge. Every emotional response that happens within the brain is tied to a unique peptide chain that sends the signal throughout the nervous system. Perhaps there is one tied to subspace? I do not know enough to say, but I hope we all get answers. My earlier response is based upon some of the more common things we know about how pain and trauma affect different people differently. Not everyone will develop PTSD for example, yet just because some people do when they undergo certain circumstances does not make them weak. I can imagine that some people milk subdrop for attention... but I can imagine that some people are like me and suffer silently. I did not even want to tell him I dropped because i did not want to be a "whiner". I know now that he not only wants to know, he insists on knowing what is going on inside of me, he needs that information to play effectively and safely with me...even though there are subs that might milk it, some people have the same nature I have... just suck it up. Some of the things I have read on the internet foster a hostile "its in your head" type of culture when it comes to subdrop, sometimes just knowing it is NOT in your head, that you will be ok, and it does pass, makes it bearable

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/7/2007 1:02:08 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		If you're sick to begin with then of course it will take longer to recover.

In general I find that aftercare these days is a lot less because we watch out for problems. In the beginning we would have a day or two to play and go at it constantly. Meaning guaranteed I would be overtired, dehydrated and not properly nourished. And with that kind of physical trauma, the emotional was worse.

These days I'm rabid on bringing water with me to begin with and not playing if I haven't slept, eaten or am not up to par either physically or emotionally.

I bet if you do the scene over again once you're better you will find it won't be half as exhausting.

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/7/2007 2:39:51 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		I have always thought that it was pretty natural to feel all sorts of different ways after *things* stop. I hadn't thought to give it a special name. I can get a bit miz at any old time, I haven't ever thought to attach that to any *activities*.........If I became *down* for days afterwards and needed specific care, I'd question whether it was worth it.

As for aftercare, I can't remember ever discussing it.....I guess M does whatever feels ok at the time. There's no formula and no expectations. He talks to me for hours afterwards, and later on,  and at bedtime. Maybe talking is aftercare. No idea, really..... perhaps we just have an organic approach.

agirl



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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/7/2007 5:02:37 PM   
kyraofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile

This may sound odd, but he might be able to use any research which was done regarding, Torture.   Be it from wartime, CIA.. or whatnot.  Because the torture victims would have been in/out of a sort of subspace.   Post Trumatic stress, or perhap studies on the effects one suffers from accidents.  Auto accidents..  Any similar studies to the effect of pain on a person in General is what I'm trying to express.  Now that I've fumbled around with so many words..



That type of research is definitely worth looking into, but I have to wonder how much of it could be applied to BDSM.  I am not very knowledgeable in the field of brain chemisty or psychology, but it seems reasonable to me that someone who is a masochist or willingly engages in painful activity is going to process things a little differently than someone who is experiencing unwanted pain or traumatic pain.  For masochists in particular who naturally process painful sensations differently, I would think that there is something different going on for them in comparison to the part of the population who are not masochists and seek to avoid pain.  This is supposition on my part, but I do know the way we think effects our brain chemistry.  I imagine that someone being tortured or in an accident is going to have very different thoughts running through their mind than I do while engaging in SM.

Then there are the non-painful plays in BDSM that also causes many to experience subspace.  I don't see how research on the effects of pain can explain that experience. 

Knight's kyra

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/7/2007 5:20:06 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		The type of play I was refering to is what is seen at "most" parties, light flogging stopping well short of drawing blood and or the average spank and tickle sort of play.  Doing needle play and endorphine circles and caning to the point of drawing blood does release a lot of endorphins and god knows what but that is clearly not average play at average parties.

That said, Western medicine has a nasty habit of believing if they can't detect or measure something it doesn't exist.  These are the same people who denied the G spot existed, that women can ejaculate, or that there was any value in Chinese medicine. The most refined measurement of pain in common use is 1-10! They deny pain medicine to people dying in excruciating crippling pain because they don't want them to get addicted.  Sorry if I don't get all respectful when people start trying to throw around "science" as if it is all knowing. 

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/7/2007 6:00:37 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Fast reply and my last to this thread...

In 4 pages of posts I only noticed one reference being made about what the bottom gives to the top in terms of aftercare.  The general assumption on aftercare seems to be what the top gives to the bottom and I wonder why people do not often consider what the bottom can give to the top after a scene. 

I know that my Lord is often more exhausted after play than I am and since those he tops like to fight back he often has a few sore spots and scratches of his own.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/7/2007 7:52:05 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Fast reply and my last to this thread...

In 4 pages of posts I only noticed one reference being made about what the bottom gives to the top in terms of aftercare.  The general assumption on aftercare seems to be what the top gives to the bottom and I wonder why people do not often consider what the bottom can give to the top after a scene. 

Because of the continued stereotype that sub = passive/weak/needing someone else to provide while dom = active/tough/independent/strong/ready to give and protect

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/7/2007 8:12:30 PM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Maybe for you perhaps, but love has no play in what I like and what I seek outside my primary relationship. I have no use for romantic attachments outside of my Daddy and I.
quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

but it should still be about love.


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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/7/2007 8:19:31 PM   
sweetnurseBBW


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From: North Carolina
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

I am probably going to sound very controversial now but I don't think anyone should be involved in this lifestyle except within a committed relationship.  I


Well a vast majority of people within this lifestyle do not want a committed relationship and just want play partners. This does not make it wrong. It is just how some like it. Not everyone wants to be in a committed relationship.  Love does not have to be apart of  it depending on the type if relationship a person seeks with in this lifestyle.

< Message edited by sweetnurseBBW -- 3/7/2007 8:22:35 PM >

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/8/2007 7:22:33 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

The type of play I was refering to is what is seen at "most" parties, light flogging stopping well short of drawing blood and or the average spank and tickle sort of play.  Doing needle play and endorphine circles and caning to the point of drawing blood does release a lot of endorphins and god knows what but that is clearly not average play at average parties.

That said, Western medicine has a nasty habit of believing if they can't detect or measure something it doesn't exist.  These are the same people who denied the G spot existed, that women can ejaculate, or that there was any value in Chinese medicine. The most refined measurement of pain in common use is 1-10! They deny pain medicine to people dying in excruciating crippling pain because they don't want them to get addicted.  Sorry if I don't get all respectful when people start trying to throw around "science" as if it is all knowing. 



You are probably correct, SimplyMichael, I do not know of any specific studies dealing with "subspace" and bdsm and neurotransmitters, per se.

On the other hand, both BDSM 101, Screw The Roses, etc., and any number of other books on the subject of BDSM describe the endorphin response to pain.  You can probably do a google search of "neurological effects of pain on the human nervous system" and go through the appropriate links to get more knowledge.

If you doubt that orgasms cause a change in brain chemistry, I would be happy to provide you with scientific information supporting this; those studies have been done.  Another possible google search is "neurological effects of an orgasm on the human nervous system."

Taking BDSM as the intentional infliction of pain on another person in order to alter their brain chemistry to create an altered consciousness, in my opinion it is not an overly difficult intellectual extraction to assume (I hate that word, by the way) that the pain caused in BDSM reacts similarly to pain caused by whatever else is causing pain.  If you have any empirical evidence to suggest that BDSM pain has a different neurophysiology than other forms of pain, I would be interested in reading it.

The study of pain by scientists is fairly well documented, even if neurology is still in it's infancy as a scientific discipline.

To get back to the topic at hand.  I had a friend who ran marathons.  He would train, run the marathon, and be unable to get out of bed for 2 days afterwards.  A lot of this resulted from the chemical reaction to all the stress on his body.

I put on a padded suit, do gymnastics for hours, get kicked in the head, sweat a quart an hour, deal with a rather emotionally draining subject matter, am under adrenalin response for most of it.  Sometimes, I am just fine the next day.  Sometimes, I it might take me 4 days before I am fully recovered from it.  The difference between the former and the latter is not emotional.  It is a physiological reaction which alters my brain chemistry to a greater or lesser extent.  I dont dwell on "why" I feel a certain way.  I just feel that certain way until I am done feeling that certain way.

I see my submissive in subspace that way.  She is going to feel how she feels until she is done feeling it.  Which is not to say that I will mollycoddle her and allow her to manipulate our dynamic.

On the other hand, I do agree with your comments insofar as I am not a therapist.  I will listen.  I might even comment.  I refuse to play the role of therapist in a relationship.  Need help?  I will 411 the number of somebody the person can contact to get help.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/8/2007 9:25:41 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

That type of research is definitely worth looking into, but I have to wonder how much of it could be applied to BDSM.  I am not very knowledgeable in the field of brain chemisty or psychology, but it seems reasonable to me that someone who is a masochist or willingly engages in painful activity is going to process things a little differently than someone who is experiencing unwanted pain or traumatic pain.  For masochists in particular who naturally process painful sensations differently, I would think that there is something different going on for them in comparison to the part of the population who are not masochists and seek to avoid pain.  This is supposition on my part, but I do know the way we think effects our brain chemistry.  I imagine that someone being tortured or in an accident is going to have very different thoughts running through their mind than I do while engaging in SM.


Both sensory deprivation and sensory overload can lead to altered states of mind. The two primary forms of play I hear about are those which deprive the senses or those that overload the senses. Here is an article that talks about this phenomena from a medical anthropologist. I have long been fascinated with shamans and how they reach the spirit world... there may not be a correlation between WIITWD and this at all, but it seems to me that it could well be related having experienced altered states of consciousness through depriving my own senses for spiritual reasons, and having experienced an altered state of consciousness we call subspace...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1447282

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=oqk5XmjXdToC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&sig=qCC8Xwcjuh_6iEDlolP6XidtN7s&dq=sensory+deprivation+altered+states+of+consciousness+shaman#PPR1,M1



_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/9/2007 7:39:16 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

On the other hand, both BDSM 101, Screw The Roses, etc., and any number of other books on the subject of BDSM describe the endorphin response to pain.  You can probably do a google search of "neurological effects of pain on the human nervous system" and go through the appropriate links to get more knowledge.


I don't need to go to "appropriate links to get more knowledge" I actually KNOW Jay who wrote SM101 and play around some of the same people he does.  Where on earth in my posts do you read me denying endorphins exist, pain play releases them, that subspace exists, or that aftercare has value? 

quote:

  If you doubt that orgasms cause a change in brain chemistry, I would be happy to provide you with scientific information supporting this; those studies have been done.  Another possible google search is "neurological effects of an orgasm on the human nervous system."


Yea so?  If your point is women need aftercare after great sex, I haven't seen many vanilla women needing five days of aftercare after an orgy.

quote:

  If you have any empirical evidence to suggest that BDSM pain has a different neurophysiology than other forms of pain, I would be interested in reading it.

The study of pain by scientists is fairly well documented, even if neurology is still in it's infancy as a scientific discipline.


I guess I didn't write my critique of western science clear enough.  I didn't say they have an inncorrect understanding of what the DO know, but they offten infer that if they haven't discovered it yet that is the same as it not existing.

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/9/2007 8:10:46 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Michael,

What do you believe is behind the phenomena of subspace since you do not deny its existence. I am trying to understand what you are attempting to convey. I am sincerely trying to present information as to what is going on inside the brain during subspace and subdrop and not dismissing it. I think that when I quit smoking it showed me how powerful altering our brain chemistry really is.

I think that when one adds the brain chemistry of sexual arousal, pain response, adrenaline if the submissive is in fear at any point, sensory overload and sensory deprivation, one gets a powerful soup of biochemical reactions. I do not have proof, but I can add one plus one plus one. We do not have conclusive proof as to what happens in the brain, my point is that we should not be dismissive precisely because we do not know what happens in the brain. Perhaps for some rare person they flip out once or twice because of subspace, perhaps they have one really negative experience and then they never have one again (like me, I suffered for three days, did not even express it until I was almost done dropping, and I have never had subdrop again... and we did not play all that hard). You would probably put it in the being flogged lightly for 20 minutes category. It was the first time we played, the first day we met, and all these things played a part in my drop.

You know post partum depression is an example of what I am talking about... many women get this, many women do not, some women respond by getting it so badly that they have thoughts of doing something to themselves or others. Many will only have this experience with one pregnancy and never have it again... should women not have more than one child because their body reacted negatively to it one time?

I understand your points after reading more of the posts on this thread, if someone is needy in your estimation when it comes to drop it is a turn off for you, I respect this. I understand the formation of the opinion that many do this just for attention, perhaps they react this way every time they play, and if that is the case perhaps that individual should not play anymore, but if they are willing to go through that pain I guess that is their choice. I know I would not play if it meant days and days and days of pain like that I experience on the one occasion of subdrop. Thankfully I do not respond that way.

Kyra mentioned being there for the top during drop. Sinergy has adrenaline drop often, and if I am there I am extra affectionate, try to preemptively discover what he needs, treat him like he treats me after play as a part of my service to him. He can have bad adrenaline hangovers and they can cause him to be more emotional feeling, although he does not exhibit it, I do know when it is affecting him and respond accordingly.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/9/2007 8:50:38 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I would say if a woman knows she will get depression to a certain extent that she will not be a good parent, then she should avoid having children. 

We are responsible adults here-  especially in the case of recreational kinky activities, we can't be excused from life for a week just because we had an average 40 minute flogging on Saturday.

Now, if we're talking a 2 day kidnapping rape scene, or something that caused an unforseen emotional breakthrough, then we're into a more grey area and we can discuss more leeway.

But if a person knows they can't even handle a standard normal scene and be able to function up to five days later, they should just avoid that activity.

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/9/2007 8:59:14 AM   
swtrayn


Posts: 222
Joined: 2/21/2007
Status: offline 		I wanted to add my two cents in.

I do enjoy some aftercare from play. I do not require alot, just attention while I am in subspace and come back to reality.

I guess I am low maintance HEHE..

rayn


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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/9/2007 9:03:54 AM   
juliaoceania


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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

I would say if a woman knows she will get depression to a certain extent that she will not be a good parent, then she should avoid having children. 



How badly must she be depressed to reconsider having more children? I mean should Brooke Shields have not had anymore babies because she experienced a depression? I do not agree with you btw, every pregnancy is different.  Just because a woman experiences post partum depression once does not mean she will again. Family support, education, treatment if it gets really bad, all factor in to post partum depression. It is a good analogy, a supportive dom, knowledge and treating yourself in a way that minimizes subdrop is a productive thing, just like taking care of yourself as a new mother is productive also. I think that was my point about subspace, not everyone will have subspace every time they play. Because it is experienced once does not mean it will be experienced again (like with me, I had the experience once and never again).

I do agree that if someone is really negatively impacted every time they play they should rethink that, it is their life though and if they can afford to be excused for a week from it and think that is worth it, that is their choice, if their dominant desires they do this and he is willing to deal with it, his choice too. I do not see it as irresponsible unless other people besides those consenting to it are negatively impacted by it.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/9/2007 9:16:23 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
How badly must she be depressed to reconsider having more children? I mean should Brooke Shields have not had anymore babies because she experienced a depression? I do not agree with you btw, every pregnancy is different.  Just because a woman experiences post partum depression once does not mean she will again. Family support, education, treatment if it gets really bad, all factor in to post partum depression. It is a good analogy, a supportive dom, knowledge and treating yourself in a way that minimizes subdrop is a productive thing, just like taking care of yourself as a new mother is productive also. I think that was my point about subspace, not everyone will have subspace every time they play. Because it is experienced once does not mean it will be experienced again (like with me, I had the experience once and never again).

As I said "if a woman knows."  That's a pretty big IF.

I would also think a responsible person would recognize "This happened before, it might happen again, so I need to make the next decision with more serioues deliberation and as much preparation as possible" 

quote:

I do agree that if someone is really negatively impacted every time they play they should rethink that, it is their life though and if they can afford to be excused for a week from it and think that is worth it, that is their choice, if their dominant desires they do this and he is willing to deal with it, his choice too. I do not see it as irresponsible unless other people besides those consenting to it are negatively impacted by it.

I agree.  But I will also not find myself becoming close or depending on someone who has such extreme reactions and incapabilities on a regular basis.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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