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RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/4/2007 7:32:43 PM

dcnovice

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This occurred to me after I'd posted my last message, but I think the other reason folks don't focus on Islamic extremism is that it's hard to know what on Earth to do about it.

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(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 81

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/4/2007 9:28:06 PM

cyberdude611

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

OK, you are making this big huge deal about Nancy Pelosi wearing a Hajib as a show of respect for a holy place, and all of a sudden this makes her somehow bowing to extremists? I am trying to understand your position, but if you choose not to communicate it, that is fine because I only have what you have posted to go on to deduce your position....

If you want to know what demanding people bow to extremists is about, try being a female in the military in Saudi Arabia just a few years ago... they were forced to wear complete and total modesty garments from head to toe that were almost as oppressive as a burka before one woman in the air force stood up to the military and demanded that she be able to wear her uniform... now Pelosi was not forced to wear the hajib... American military women used to be forced to wear worse

here is more
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2001-04-24-mcsally.htm

Seems the pentagon was prostrating themselves more than Pelosi

It's propaganda. And it is very dangerous.

During the Cold War, one of the strategies of the Soviets was to cause friction between the White House and the Congress. And they succeeded in this several times. They thought that if they can drive a wedge between the branches of the US government, that it will weaken America's resolve.

By Pelosi going over there, we are confusing our allies and the world because we no longer seem to have a unified and strong foreign policy. The Congress does not dictate foreign policy in our government. That is the president's responsibility to set the policy. Congress can go around the world on "fact-finding" missions. But they are not supposed to engage in dialog that comes in conflict with the White House's set foreign policy. That's violating the separation of powers. These congressmen do not have all the information to be engaged in these kind of talks.

If the president's foreign policy is hurting the country, then the Congress has the power to throw the president out of office. But Democrats don't seem to be interested in doing that, nor do they have the votes to do that. But that doesn't give an excuse to circumvent the law and constitution to create your own foreign policy. And that is what the Democrats are doing here....and its illegal.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 82

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/4/2007 10:12:28 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

During the Cold War, one of the strategies of the Soviets was to cause friction between the White House and the Congress. And they succeeded in this several times. They thought that if they can drive a wedge between the branches of the US government, that it will weaken America's resolve.

Here is the thing, the American people have interests that are not being very well represented by the idiot in the White House, talk about Dangerous... Bush may have well sparked WW3. It makes very real sense to talk with Iraq's neighbors about a stable Iraq and their role in making this happen instead of demonizing them.

Now you can believe what you want to believe. You think Pelosi is dangerous.. I am not going to argue Pelosi with you, what I will say is Bush has proven himself to be extremely dangerous and lacking in judgment. BTW, what is our resolve in Iraq again? Oh yeah, getting the oil and enriching Blackwater and Halliburton... this American never resolved to do anything of the sort.

quote:

By Pelosi going over there, we are confusing our allies and the world because we no longer seem to have a unified and strong foreign policy. The Congress does not dictate foreign policy in our government. That is the president's responsibility to set the policy. Congress can go around the world on "fact-finding" missions. But they are not supposed to engage in dialog that comes in conflict with the White House's set foreign policy. That's violating the separation of powers. These congressmen do not have all the information to be engaged in these kind of talks.

It is hilarious to see you spouting about powers when Bush has done all he can to usurp the other two branches of government. It is a little ludicrous to talk about that when Bush is trying to trump the Congress and their power of the purse and their legislative function. Also pretty funny when you think about how Bush has tried to play politics within the Justice Department.

quote:

If the president's foreign policy is hurting the country, then the Congress has the power to throw the president out of office. But Democrats don't seem to be interested in doing that, nor do they have the votes to do that. But that doesn't give an excuse to circumvent the law and constitution to create your own foreign policy. And that is what the Democrats are doing here....and its illegal

I agree, they need to toss this treasonous bastard to the curb, and they won't, which is why I am hesitant to vote Democrat... they are sellouts basically. I am glad I voted Libertarian and Green last election.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 83

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 12:50:21 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

There are a lot of fundemental Christians and Jews that would draw up a similar list to this with a few religious differences.

Yeah sure, meatcleaver, you hear about that sort of thing all the time, Christians and Jews stoning women for getting raped, and things of that nature. Christians and Jews are all the time beheading Muslims and what-not just simply for being non-believers... yeah. Sure, sure there, meatcleaver. Happens all the time...

Say - what color is the sky on your planet, anyway

When Christians had the power in our society they burnt and tortured people and went to war. It is only because of the secular nature of our society and secular people holding the power is there any semblance of freedom and freedom of thought. Look at American Christian fundementalists, they are stark staring raving mad! God help the world if they ever get power, it's bad enough with the influence they have on power now! Islam needs a reformation but don't for a minute think it is worse than other Abramic religions, they are all mean, vicious and judgemental and the world would be better off without all of them.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 84

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 1:49:56 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

How adherent to Leviticus are y'all?

Good point, farglebargle. One has to go back thousands of years to find examples of Westerners acting like Muslim extremists do today.

Keep that research coming buddy, I really appreciate all your help

thousands of years? How many exactly?

1000 years ago we were Christian in the west of Europe, though in the east and north the missionaries were still just about arriving

1500 years ago the missionaries were still doing their work on us English, and the Church was still chasing down those evil pagan types across western Europe and the Med.

Approx 1600 years ago, Christianity was made the official religion in a crumbling Roman Empire, having been until then a repressed minority branch of Judaism.

2000 years ago, according to the Bible, Jesus was a snot nosed seven year old kid, albeit maybe his snot was chocolate flavoured, being the son of God and all.

How exactly would Hengest (4th-5thC), or back further still Beowulf (1stC?) as my western European English ancestors, direct or indirect, have even come to hear of Mosaic laws do you think? They didnt hear about them, didnt know about them and didnt follow them.

They are a peculiarly Jewish phenomenon, arising from and suited to the ancient form of Judaism, and quite why we should have any interest whatever in them is only down to a historical accident involving one Constantine who made himself Emperor.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 85

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 2:55:12 AM

krys

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Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

Sure I responded, friend - when I said that LIBERALS are supposed to stand for "womens' rights". Remember?

Just because you can't understand doesn't mean that it was never addressed.

So its a double standard thing? Bad when a Democrat does it but good when a Republican does it?

quote:

Show me where I've said that being a Muslim is bad. I've said things like, Muslim women are stoned for being raped, which is true, but you're lying to yourself when you try to put those words in my mouth. Are you denying the reality that Jihad is a part of the Muslim faith? Killing or enslaving all Westerners is the dream of Muslim fundamentalists, like it or not. Why do you condemn me for speaking the truth... wouldn't it be far easier for you to just hide your head in the sand instead?

So you're pro muslim and for stoning women to death then? I don't want to put words in your mouth so, please, clarify what you mean.

But thankfully there are no Western or Christian examples of such behavior for thousands of years, as you said. Well except Tim McVeigh. And abortion clinic bombings. And the Westboro Baptist Church. And Pat Robertson calling for the assassination of Chavez. And Ann Coulter calling for the assassination of a Justice Stevens. And Matthew Sheppard's murder and the tons of homosexual hate crimes that happen all the time.

I'll stick my head in the sand as soon as you pull you're head out and make room.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 86

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 3:07:54 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

How adherent to Leviticus are y'all?

Good point, farglebargle. One has to go back thousands of years to find examples of Westerners acting like Muslim extremists do today.

Keep that research coming buddy, I really appreciate all your help

You do realize that this is total bullshit? Slavery, genocide, conquistadors, inquisition, the religious wars, the refortmation, the crusades, empires (America has its own today ven though most Americans insist on denying that fact).

Muslims have some serious killing to do to catch up to the blood on western hands. The only thing they have going for them isd that they too have a belief in a warped Abramic religion.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 87

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 3:17:36 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

This occurred to me after I'd posted my last message, but I think the other reason folks don't focus on Islamic extremism is that it's hard to know what on Earth to do about it.

There are two options as I see it.

1) Exterminate them, before they exterminate/overthrow us. This is the easier of the two options, making us feel strong and superior, generating nationalistic fervour and provoking military spending which is good for business.
or
2) Look into why they are so pissed at us in the first place and try to defuse the situation. There will always be fundies of all persuasions, including Islamic, but the growth of fundamentalist Islam is directly linked to our foreign policy in the Middle East over decades. They feel under threat, so guess what? They react.

This is the harder of the two options, requiring us to look at ourselves and resolve the injustices we have caused, participated in or acquiesced to. Not popular at home since it is perceived as weak, unpatriotic and isnt good for business.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 88

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 3:51:08 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

OK, you are making this big huge deal about Nancy Pelosi wearing a Hajib as a show of respect for a holy place, and all of a sudden this makes her somehow bowing to extremists? I am trying to understand your position, but if you choose not to communicate it, that is fine because I only have what you have posted to go on to deduce your position....

If you want to know what demanding people bow to extremists is about, try being a female in the military in Saudi Arabia just a few years ago... they were forced to wear complete and total modesty garments from head to toe that were almost as oppressive as a burka before one woman in the air force stood up to the military and demanded that she be able to wear her uniform... now Pelosi was not forced to wear the hajib... American military women used to be forced to wear worse

here is more
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2001-04-24-mcsally.htm

Seems the pentagon was prostrating themselves more than Pelosi

Well really, I'm not making as big a deal of this as you and puella and meatcleaver are, I just thought it was interesting to note the irony. You three went hysterical, and are trying everything in the book to defend the indefensible... including this latest tactic, suggesting that it's okay to do something bad as long as someone else did something worse once.

Hmm, is that sound logic...

Sorry, I don't think so.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 4/5/2007 3:55:42 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 89

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 3:55:45 AM

Daddysjezzy

Posts: 54
Joined: 7/4/2005
Status: offline

Actually Sanity if you are looking at Western examples of terrorist activity you only have to look at the Catholic vs Protestant Troubles in Northern Ireland. That is certainly more recent than thousands of years. Another recent Western Extremist situation was Waco, Tx. So dont be so quick to say that this is a Middle Eastern or non-Western problem.

jezzy

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 90

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 3:57:14 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

What do you suggest she should have done Sanity?

Rolled in there on a horse with a ten gallon hat and a six shooter and drawled in a John Waynesque way that she was gonna clear them varmints out?

She went as I understand it, to talk, to negotiate, to make an approach that they might listen to. NB that the other approaches the west has taken have never worked. Is it not worth trying at least, a more empathetic approach?

And personally, I dont believe for a minute that her visit wasnt known about and directed by the White House either. Nancy has her eye on the prize, I'm sure, so it would be remiss of her indeed to have ventured out like this without some sort of backing and a view to the future Democrat presidency getting the US and us out of this mess.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 91

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 3:58:42 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

2) Look into why they are so pissed at us in the first place

Face reality. The Koran tells them to kill us. Once again, that's just reality. I realize that the majority of Muslims are great people, just like everyone else. But the millions and millions who do hate us hate us because their holy book tells them to.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 92

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 4:08:35 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

2) Look into why they are so pissed at us in the first place

Face reality. The Koran tells them to kill us. Once again, that's just reality. I realize that the majority of Muslims are great people, just like everyone else. But the millions and millions who do hate us hate us because their holy book tells them to.

Absolute rot, Sanity, excuse my language.

They hate us because of how we deal with them and their countries. They feel threatened and so they react and resist.

Yes, the Quran says all sorts of things about us non Muslims, but it also makes clear that Muslims ought to be respectfully accepting of other "people of the book". It was written after all with the prime aim being to convert pagan Arabs and it is they who are the objects of those particular clauses, not to produce hatred towards Jews and Christians - many millions of whom live in primarily Islamic countries to this day, indicating again that this is more abour our foreign policies than our Christian culture, as otherwise these Jews and Christians would all be long dead.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 93

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 6:14:34 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Absolute rot, Sanity, excuse my language.

They hate us because of how we deal with them and their countries. They feel threatened and so they react and resist.

Yes, the Quran says all sorts of things about us non Muslims, but it also makes clear that Muslims ought to be respectfully accepting of other "people of the book". It was written after all with the prime aim being to convert pagan Arabs and it is they who are the objects of those particular clauses, not to produce hatred towards Jews and Christians - many millions of whom live in primarily Islamic countries to this day, indicating again that this is more abour our foreign policies than our Christian culture, as otherwise these Jews and Christians would all be long dead.

E

Then explain the nightclub bombing in Bali. How do you apoligize for the killing of people in a nightclub? And the constant strife between Sunnis and Shia, as we see now in Iraq. Murdering innocent people on ocean liners and on airplanes. And the constant beheadings and bloody expansion of Islam since the 5th Century. And the behavior of the Barbary Pirates. And the millions and millions of other perfect examples that prove just how wrong you are.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 94

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 6:25:55 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

And the constant strife between Sunnis and Shia, as we see now in Iraq.

I am going to take constant strife for 1200 alex....

What is----this is due to us invading their country and wiping out their preferred form of government?

Contestant

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 95

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 6:27:13 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

And the constant strife between Sunnis and Shia, as we see now in Iraq.

I am going to take constant strife for 1200 alex....

What is----this is due to us invading their country and wiping out their preferred form of government?

Contestant

Would you really prefer to have Saddam & Sons ruling over you?

I seriously doubt it.

And another place where your logic is seriously fucked up is that Saddam caused strife - read up on your history. Eliminating him will make for a far more peaceful Middle East in the long run, as long as Democrats don't force us to surrender just as we're winning the peace

< Message edited by Sanity -- 4/5/2007 6:36:27 AM >

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 96

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 6:32:54 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

Its very simple to explain why these people are pissed at us, but no explanation will do it seems, if it isnt one that starts with the premise that we are good and they are evil.

What I suggest is a personal experience. Get yourself a large dog. Tie it to a tree. Now start beating it.

When it bites you, consider whether the dog is evil, or whether it is biting because its being beaten.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 97

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 6:36:42 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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Now how did we get to that?

Saddam Hussein was in power for 20 some years, and not once, not fuckin' once did I get as much as a form letter addressed to postal patron, saying that the mother of all tribal chieftans was coming to do a show in my town.

I am not a big fan of hand slicing and tit torture and all them other things that is de riguer in the ME. But, strong, powerful, ruthless leaders are the most effective form of government in those countries. A tribal chieftan that displays machismo on a scale of the Nordic Gods.

So, what does saddam and sons have to do with anything regarding my governance in society?

Furthermore, I think that it has little to do with NP wearing a scarf, I think we should burn all the middle eastern diplomats that come and visit us in suit and tie. Outrageous, it is. Consider the term 'lingua franca'.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 98

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 6:42:16 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Its very simple to explain why these people are pissed at us, but no explanation will do it seems, if it isnt one that starts with the premise that we are good and they are evil.
E

You just can't discuss anything wihout trying to construct a strawman to argue against, can you.

I never said we're good, we're not. We're bad _________s. But those a**holes across the way want to kill us, they're advertising that fact on a billboard, and that billboard has been saying the same thing for about 1500 years.

THAT'S what I'm saying. So instead of putting words in my mouth that I didn't say try just once to argue with what I did say

If you're capable of that

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 99

RE: Nancy Pelosi As A Muslim - 4/5/2007 6:44:53 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But, strong, powerful, ruthless leaders are the most effective form of government in those countries. A tribal chieftan that displays machismo on a scale of the Nordic Gods.

Yet if we make them wear panties on their heads or constuct your basic butt pyramid the world is coming to an end. Right?

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 100

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