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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 11:43:40 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Hello gothique. You are right , she is smart. Not answering in that context is a 'smart' answer. 'I have nothing to say' is an answer. On your knees, head bowed is a 'non verbal' answer and this combined to silence is the same as saying 'I am (feel) humbled at this moment and I have nothing to say to excuse my behavior'.

Such an answer would be considered a non-answer by my Master and would be unacceptable to him. When asked my thoughts I am required to speak my thoughts, whatever they may be. If he doesn't like my thoughts, he works with me to change them. If I have trouble expressing myself verbally (which I used to), he trains me to do so, and I willingly learn.

Those times when I have been reprimanded, punished, scolded, etc., when asked what I am thinking I tell him the truth - that I am grateful for his efforts to correct me, and I promise to work on fixing the issue so that I do not repeat it. If it's an issue I have struggled with, I ask for his help in resolving it. And I always thank him for the punishment and apologize for creating a situation where he could not enjoy me.

(in reply to robertolapiedra)

Post #: 21

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/16/2007 11:53:17 PM

PeggyO

Posts: 129
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Hello,

If the Master is functionning on a traditional Japanese model in terms of dressing the slave down, frankly at the end there is nothing to say. In that model, there is no contradicting the Master, there are no excuses to be made and there is nowhere to place blame but on oneself. If you are functionning in that model, the only thing the slave can really do is to say they will attempt to do better the next time. These types of dressing downs are designed to produce shame - that clearly seems to be working because the slave seems to be responding that way.

As an uchideshi, I've experienced this type of dressing down more times than I care to remember. There is nothing one can truly say, other than one will attempt to improve in the future.

Best of luck,

Peggy O
Uchideshi in FifthAngel's house

(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 22

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 12:26:19 AM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Hello gothique. You are right , she is smart. Not answering in that context is a 'smart' answer. 'I have nothing to say' is an answer. On your knees, head bowed is a 'non verbal' answer and this combined to silence is the same as saying 'I am (feel) humbled at this moment and I have nothing to say to excuse my behavior'.

Such an answer would be considered a non-answer by my Master and would be unacceptable to him. When asked my thoughts I am required to speak my thoughts, whatever they may be. If he doesn't like my thoughts, he works with me to change them. If I have trouble expressing myself verbally (which I used to), he trains me to do so, and I willingly learn.

Those times when I have been reprimanded, punished, scolded, etc., when asked what I am thinking I tell him the truth - that I am grateful for his efforts to correct me, and I promise to work on fixing the issue so that I do not repeat it. If it's an issue I have struggled with, I ask for his help in resolving it. And I always thank him for the punishment and apologize for creating a situation where he could not enjoy me.

Hello ownedgirlie. I was responding in the context of the japanese style mentioned and other old french and english styles of M/s. The understanding you have with your master may be different in 'severity' thus making the responding a positive experience for you. There are so many variants of the classical styles today one cannot be sure his or her 'experience' has the same magnitude for the same instance. And that is very normal. RL.

Edited: I misread . I thought ownedgirlie was refering to my answer. Sorry if I did not correct post in time.

< Message edited by robertolapiedra -- 5/17/2007 12:48:14 AM >

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 23

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 7:19:17 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Such an answer would be considered a non-answer by my Master and would be unacceptable to him. When asked my thoughts I am required to speak my thoughts, whatever they may be. If he doesn't like my thoughts, he works with me to change them. If I have trouble expressing myself verbally (which I used to), he trains me to do so, and I willingly learn.

On the other hand, there are times you will simply say "Yes Sir" rather than vocalizing your thoughts and feelings because you know that particular time is not that time to bring them up and/or you are more emotional than will be useful at that time.

Now, in response to a direct question, you can also modify your words to say the truth, in the way you've been trained to say them- not necessarily the full and whole truth, or how your mind generates them naturally, but the way you know that gets your meaning across while also attempting to get the best possible response as you have been trained to do.

I think it depends on exactly what the question asked was and exactly what expectations this master has of this slave. So far we've seen no evidence to suggest that the master feels anything is wrong with the relationship or how it's working, and no evidence to suggest the slave is doing anything wrong other than occasionally being "dressed down."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 24

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 7:23:44 AM

sweetnurseBBW

Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

There might be some reason she does not feel comfortable enough speak. In a casual, non threatening way you can ask her why she doesn't answer. If your Master has not identified it as a problem then I would let it go. Maybe that is just how she is. She doesn't want to say anything and that is her way.

_____________________________

Sir Pain's pain slut

(in reply to gothique)

Post #: 25

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 7:26:36 AM

earthycouple

Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveish

I do not know the protocol for the model you're talking about, but perhaps her sister on her knees on the floor next to her, speaking quietly to her Master, telling him how she herself has failed, setting a strong and good example of what is desired.

... or ... Master punishing the alpha for the other slave's failure. It works with my sister and me - we protect each other and do not want to be the cause of punishment for the other.

Did you even read the question? How can that help?

_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to slaveish)

Post #: 26

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 7:43:37 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Edited: I misread . I thought ownedgirlie was refering to my answer. Sorry if I did not correct post in time.

Hi Roberto,

I was responding to your post, in that having nothing to say would not be an acceptable answer. I am unaware of Japanese or French methods as for me there is only Master's method :) But I think if a Master is asking a girl what she is thinking, she ought to be telling him, no? And I've seen several posts now say there is nothing she could tell him that wouldn't be trying to excuse herself. I just wanted to point out that expressing gratitude would seem to be an acceptable response.

I do not know the severity or magnitude which you are comparing. With the intensity I receive from my Master, it's very hard to get a word out afterwords. But it is required, so I do. Giving him anything less than what he requires would be as self serving as asking him for a reprieve.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts...

(in reply to robertolapiedra)

Post #: 27

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 7:49:38 AM

PhoenixLM

Posts: 79
Joined: 5/12/2005
From: Fort Wayne, Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

It seems to me that it is a fear based relationship. Fear is not condusive to openness. The american culture of deterrent fosters fear, repression, closure. It takes a radical change in attitude towards reform culture and self improvement, starting with the master.

Sir, that is a type of hiearchy that I live and thrive in, I have no fear of my owner or of recieving discpline when a slave I am in charge of fails.

Your post gives me pause and makes me believe you think of this type of hiearchy as abusive, please forgive me if I misinterrupted this. I can assure you this is not an abusive house, I have lived with one abusive owner, who did control through fear, this is nothing like being under his thumb.

Everything is documented for my owner to go over, the methods I have employed to teach and the results. My owner (MistressMelissa ID on CM) is a smart lady and knows that I give my best effort in training and reconizes that a slaves failure is not automatically my failure. If she goes over my documentation and sees where I may have neglected to give instuction in some area, then I am at fault. I can not nor will I refuse to train anyone she brings into this house as a slave.
Sir Robertolapiedra, is absolutly correct that this is not a common setup. We have not yet found the right people for her house, that like myself can thrive in this setup but we continue the search, for that one in a million slave.

_____________________________

Phoenix
House Ds Haven
http://dshaven.com

(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 28

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 7:50:34 AM

MistressNoName

Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

Seems to me, Japanese model, European model, Whatever model, it is never appropriate to contradict or argue with one's Owner...I can only speak for myself.

When I was working with a boy I was considering, at those times when it was necessary to "dress him down" (and how he would've loved that expression!), honestly, the only words that he could say that would satisfy me in the moment were: "yes, Ms." If there was something he did and I was trying to understand why he did the thing, I would wait for a calmer moment and ask him directed questions about the behavior. If it was something I just wanted him not to do again, and it warranted it, I would give a punishment, he would accept it and we went on with life. So, partly, this has to do with how your Master chooses to deal with misbehavior within the household.

Now, perhaps you can clarify exactly how this model works...perhaps we might be able to offer better suggestions if we had a better understanding of how your household is run...also, it's always interesting to learn about different ways of doing M/s.

MNN

(in reply to earthycouple)

Post #: 29

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 7:55:57 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
On the other hand, there are times you will simply say "Yes Sir" rather than vocalizing your thoughts and feelings because you know that particular time is not that time to bring them up and/or you are more emotional than will be useful at that time.

Yes exactly, while I will often do this during an intense conversation in which he is clearly making his point without giving room for comment, I will say Yes Master and later when it's a more appropriate time, I can talk to him about what's on my mind.

quote:

Now, in response to a direct question, you can also modify your words to say the truth, in the way you've been trained to say them- not necessarily the full and whole truth, or how your mind generates them naturally, but the way you know that gets your meaning across while also attempting to get the best possible response as you have been trained to do.

Absolutely. In some cases, I have even said, "I feel too intimidated to even speak, and I don't know what to say right now." Or, "I'm overwhelmed and trying to process what just happened." And yes, for me there are always ways of expressing myself just as you described. Words are chosen carefully so that he understands me perfectly while I remain in appropriate conduct to his liking.

quote:

I think it depends on exactly what the question asked was and exactly what expectations this master has of this slave. So far we've seen no evidence to suggest that the master feels anything is wrong with the relationship or how it's working, and no evidence to suggest the slave is doing anything wrong other than occasionally being "dressed down."

I have to say I am unfamiliar with the term "dressed down" although it seems to represent being stripped of ego, maybe by way of punishment or reprimand, or maybe simply because she(he) needs it. But I agree that the Master in this situation doesnt seem to mind all that much if he is not correcting her. If this is the case, I would wonder why the alpha is making issue. I'd suggest the alpha talk to the Master to gain a better understanding of his expectations. She may be getting upset for nothing, or she may simply be getting upset because the slave is not behaving according to her desires, even though totally acceptable to the Master. I think if a Master isn't correcting his slave, then he may not see it as a problem.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 30

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 8:01:57 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Absolutely. In some cases, I have even said, "I feel too intimidated to even speak, and I don't know what to say right now."

My initial response was to the manner that the slave was dressed down. If that happened to me I cannot fathom responding back, I get intimidated to speak over much less than that.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 31

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 8:29:49 AM

Copulo

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/3/2007
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I had an exact same problem with a sub guy. I told him to dig deep and write down just why he had so much difficulty in communicating with me when he was being told off about something.
This was a guy who pondered very deeply about his submission and try very very hard not to displease me.
This is what he wrote down.

When being reprimanded I feel that I reach the very deepest part of my submission. The fear is real, the emotions play many mind games with me, my disappointment and shame is huge and I am with absolute certainty your submissive.
Then you ask me to talk. I try but I don’t want to hear the sound of my own voice. I know it will break the spell. Suddenly all those submissive emotions will be gone and Im dragged back into reality and back in reality I start to feel a bit like a fool.

Now perhaps this was just his excuse but in all the time I have been doing this I have recognised this pattern in other submissives and I honestly believe that some subs can and do hit sub space whilst being told off and when they get there they really don’t want to come out of it.

The way I went forward with this guy was to catch him long before he ever got to the point of not being able to answer me. I made him look at my eyes and keep focused. I asked questions and told him to take deep breaths and then to answer me carefully and thoughtfully. But the one thing I had to do was be most insistent that he answered me.

Aldompdx are you saying that a sub should never fear? Fear within the realms of BDSM play a very big part. Fear can just be a part of the sub feeling he/she has not pleased her dominant. It is her or his own fear and not caused, or never should be by an overly demanding Master/Mistress.

(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 32

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 8:50:12 AM

meticulousgirl

Posts: 969
Joined: 2/20/2007
Status: offline

No sub or slave is the same. That is the first thing you have to remember here.

Just because you dont have a hard time speaking doesn't mean that she wont. I personally am at a brain freeze to the world after I'm punnished, I dont talk, I freeze up and I cry, and tell myself over and over again that I am worthless to my Owner, trying to understand why I cant serve Him the way He expects me too...This is a little more personal than where I usually go on forums, but the main point is that she isn't going to be like you and no offense but you really shouldn't be worried about it, if your Master see's it as a problem He should address it with her, you shouldn't be addressing it with her or anyone else as it almost seems like your looking for a reason to get her out of the picture and that is your Masters choice not yours, i know that if I ever brought up another like you just have I would be punnished and or released.

Are you jelous of her? that's what it almost sounds like because your wrapped up in a problem that really has nothing to do with you?

This isn't an attack I'm just trying to figure out where your coming from....

(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 33

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 10:40:38 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gothique
When Master is dressing her down and telling her what she has done wrong, at the end, he always asks her for her thoughts and feelings regarding what has transpired. He always tells her to feel free to speak and be honest. She will kneel there with her hands behind her, her head bowed, and will not utter a word. I know she has thoughts, she's not stupid by any stretch of the imagination.

Has He not asked for her thoughts? Yet she stays slient? Willfull disobedience?

That behaviour would severely irritate Me also she would not be allowed to get away with it.Am I sure she has even understood what she has done wrong? Has she understood what is needed to ensure such errors are not repeated?

Does she think her Master only Owns her body? A slave belongs entirely to her Master if He wishes those thoughts divulged then she should be at least attempting to do so.

I TOTALY disagree with the stance of "Stay slient else you may make it worse"... in the face of the Master asking for that information, NOT doing so is making it worse. Speaking leads to greater understanding... both her of her Master and Him understanding her and perhaps seeing methods to improve how He teaches her.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to gothique)

Post #: 34

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 10:45:04 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Absolutely. In some cases, I have even said, "I feel too intimidated to even speak, and I don't know what to say right now." Or, "I'm overwhelmed and trying to process what just happened." And yes, for me there are always ways of expressing myself just as you described. Words are chosen carefully so that he understands me perfectly while I remain in appropriate conduct to his liking.

And that is exactly what I would expect if a girl was too shaken to unravel her thoughts enough to give a full answer right then and there. At least showning willingness to TRY and comply, try and communicate. In such circumstances I can help guide her, calm her, reasure her and help her get her thoughts in order either then OR posponed for a while and the conversation continued later.... But I WOULD get My answer.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 35

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 10:58:52 AM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

Maybe, especially since she is new, she has conflicing emotions that she doesn't want to verbalize for fear she will be either further punished, thought less of, or reprimanded for. i doubt any submissive really wants to displease their dom, but i doubt either that all a sub ever feels is remorse for their infraction after they are chastized and/or punished.... maybe she was feeling angry, maybe she wanted to scream out how unfair she thought he was, maybe she was feeling sorry for herself, so many possibilities.

It takes time to process what we are feeling after an intense emotional experience - maybe she had no words for it? Once she feels more comfortable, she'll probably open up more and be more in touch with her feelings.

Also, just a thought - maybe she felt intimidated because you were there? Maybe it would be better if these "dressing downs" happened in private, she might be more willing to open up afterwards?

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 36

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 12:41:04 PM

slaveish

Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthycouple

Did you even read the question? How can that help?

Yes I read the question and I offered my opinion based on my experience. It is regretful that it annoyed you to the point of rudeness.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to earthycouple)

Post #: 37

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 12:53:44 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthycouple

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveish

I do not know the protocol for the model you're talking about, but perhaps her sister on her knees on the floor next to her, speaking quietly to her Master, telling him how she herself has failed, setting a strong and good example of what is desired.

... or ... Master punishing the alpha for the other slave's failure. It works with my sister and me - we protect each other and do not want to be the cause of punishment for the other.

Did you even read the question? How can that help?

exactly besides sounds to me like that would breed resentment, I remeber when i was younger my mom used to use the "One effects the other rule" which ment if one of us misbehaved we all faced the penalties(usualy when we where promised soemething like going some where special that would get taken away if we didnt behave befor whatever it was) and whiles sometimes it worked most of the time it just stoped us from tattling and other times made us fight more because we resented the others getting us in trouble. It is hard enough beeing responsable for your own behavior let alone beeing made responsable for someone els's aspecially when you cant controll or arent responsable for and have no athority to controll the other person!!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to earthycouple)

Post #: 38

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 12:55:57 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Absolutely. In some cases, I have even said, "I feel too intimidated to even speak, and I don't know what to say right now." Or, "I'm overwhelmed and trying to process what just happened." And yes, for me there are always ways of expressing myself just as you described. Words are chosen carefully so that he understands me perfectly while I remain in appropriate conduct to his liking.

And that is exactly what I would expect if a girl was too shaken to unravel her thoughts enough to give a full answer right then and there. At least showning willingness to TRY and comply, try and communicate. In such circumstances I can help guide her, calm her, reasure her and help her get her thoughts in order either then OR posponed for a while and the conversation continued later.... But I WOULD get My answer.

Sir while that sounds like a good idea, I know for me personaly when I cant speak it isnt only because I havent prossesed the thoughts yet it is becuase I literaly cant get words any words to come out of my mouth even words such as "I am to intemidated to speak" in fact saying that is showing you are able to speak. There is a difference with not knowing exactly what you are thinking and literealy not beeing able to speak!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 39

RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/17/2007 1:08:55 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthycouple

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveish
I do not know the protocol for the model you're talking about, but perhaps her sister on her knees on the floor next to her, speaking quietly to her Master, telling him how she herself has failed, setting a strong and good example of what is desired.

... or ... Master punishing the alpha for the other slave's failure. It works with my sister and me - we protect each other and do not want to be the cause of punishment for the other.

Did you even read the question? How can that help?

exactly besides sounds to me like that would breed resentment, I remeber when i was younger my mom used to use the "One effects the other rule" which ment if one of us misbehaved we all faced the penalties(usualy when we where promised soemething like going some where special that would get taken away if we didnt behave befor whatever it was) and whiles sometimes it worked most of the time it just stoped us from tattling and other times made us fight more because we resented the others getting us in trouble. It is hard enough beeing responsable for your own behavior let alone beeing made responsable for someone els's aspecially when you cant controll or arent responsable for and have no athority to controll the other person!!

Magik's slave

Really? I thought it was one of the best answers. It makes perfect sense. The alpha already feels responsible, and by BEING the example she wishes to set, how can the beta NOT get the message that this is the clear and good behavior she should project for herself?

And if you make someone responsible for something, well that means you must train them to do it- which includes rewards and punishment. If the alpha is expected to be teaching the beta how to behave in certain ways, it makes sense for punishment to be at least partially based on the progress of the student.

Granted, I'm talking mature responsible adults here, not insecure brats playing pretend games.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 40

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