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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 7:22:22 AM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline 		Firstly, does this silence irritate your Master?  If not i'd let it go.
 
IMO, the only time one need speak is when a mistake may be repeated due to a need for clarification, or if Master needs to know s'thing which was a motive for the mistake.
 
Otherwise i think her silence is highly respectful.

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 7:53:59 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gothique

I am the alpha female submissive to my Master who also owns a  female slave.  She and I have a relationship loosely based on the Japanese Sempai/kohai model.  When she misbehaves or fails in her assigned duties, it reflects badly on me.
There is one thing she does a lot of the time and I need some suggestions on how to motivate a better response.
When Master is dressing her down and telling her what she has done wrong, at the end, he always asks her for her thoughts and feelings regarding what has transpired.  He always tells her to feel free to speak and be honest.  She will kneel there with her hands behind her, her head bowed, and will not utter a word.  I know she has thoughts, she's not stupid by any stretch of the imagination. 
I need to know how others have handled reluctnat-to-speak sub/slaves.
What will motivate them to speak? 
I say get over yourself. This is how she handles being dressed down. It's not a personal smit on you. She is taking responsibility by not giving an excuse for her actions.

That being said, the answer to changing her actions are in her. Your Master needs to talk to her in a non-authoritative environment (i.e. when she's not being reprimanded) and find out what is going through her head when she is being reprimanded and won't talk. There may be nothing anything wrong with her or there maybe a whole shit-load wrong with her which she keeps bottled-up by not talking. (And which may be best left bottled-up until she gets professional help.) In other words, your Master needs to get off his lazy ass and get to know this girl he brought into his house a little better. He also needs to realise that because this way reprimanding works with you, doesn't mean it'll work with her.

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Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to gothique)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 7:54:17 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeggyO

quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

2) Reprimand privately. Reprimands are more effective as a learning tool if the reprimand takes place in private. Heck, I learned that from my mother and father. Reprimands are private. Praise is public. That is, if learning is your goal. Even amongst us kids, any reprimands that they ever had to issue took place in private. And they focused on the reprimand, not on making anyone feel shamed by what had happened.



Hello,

Actually, in the Japanese model under which I live, reprimands can and frequently do happen publicly because the reprimand is given at the time of the offense.  In my house, the most frequent punishment that accompanies a reprimand is physical exercise - sit ups and push ups.  I have done push ups in restaurants, airports, by the side of the road, in shopping malls - pretty much anywhere.  It's a different teaching style.  But one of the things it does teach is to enable the person to bypass the shame and focus on not making the mistake again.  I used to get really upset about doing push ups in public.  Now it doesn't bother me in the least.  For some it may be better to be reprimanded privately, however it doesn't mean that private reprimanded is de facto a more effective learning tool.

Be well,

Peggy


i'm not trying to judge what you and your dom do but if i were in a restaurant trying to enjoy my evening, especially if i had my children with  me, your doing push ups would raise an eyebrow and i would feel uncomfortable with that. It is rather odd public behavior.  Have you ever been questioned by waiters or other patrons, or can this be done discretely?  Side of the road or airport wouldn't be as conspicusous.

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 12:08:40 PM   
robertolapiedra


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline 		[/quote]

Hmmmmmmm...this thread gets more interesting each time I come back to it.  I agree with both points of view:  private reprimands work best for those submissives who cannot/will not have this aspect of their dynamic showcased in public.  There can be reasons for this ranging the chance of the wrong people observing this and questioning her about it (her supervisor from work, for example, who just happens to be in the store when the submissive starts doing push-ups for no discernible...to the supervisor...reason) to hard limits against public humiliation of any sort.  Public reprimands work best for those submissives working within the mindset of someone like Peggy whose dynamic...in this aspect, at least,  i.e. offense = punishment...could be stated to be "anytime....anywhere".  (I know it is more complex than that, Peggy....just shortened it for clarity's sake on the point)
[/quote]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello CreativeDominant. Exactly. Even worst if seen by members of the family or best vanilla friend. I've seen public humiliation captured on video and posted on japanese sites. One may say it is not real? But, one of the girls had her hands shaking to a blur! (good actress?)

Like modern variations we find of the old western styles, they have this in Japan. Not very pretty sometimes. The dressdown normally includes the 'punishment', (it is a punishment when a reprimand is done in this style) but now you see more and more 'separate' and 'extra' punishment which uses the japanese 'public exhibition-humiliation' kink. I think it's excessive when you are living in the 21th century.

One should not jump to conclusions about the japanese styles, like all styles most are an 'assemblage' of the 'better aspects' to suit modern living. We should not write everything off because of one bad 'variant'. Same as 'our' variants...yes?

Common sense is the oldest of all disciplines. RL.

Edit: typo

< Message edited by robertolapiedra -- 5/18/2007 12:36:26 PM >

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 1:01:46 PM   
PeggyO


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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i'm not trying to judge what you and your dom do but if i were in a restaurant trying to enjoy my evening, especially if i had my children with  me, your doing push ups would raise an eyebrow and i would feel uncomfortable with that. It is rather odd public behavior.  Have you ever been questioned by waiters or other patrons, or can this be done discretely?  Side of the road or airport wouldn't be as conspicusous.


Hi,

Actually you'd be amazed at how few people actually notice someone doing pushups.  No one has ever asked me anything or commented to me on it.  Actually an airport is much more conspicuous.  But the truth here - no one cares.  It took me a long time to really believe that, but observing other people, people look curiously, then go back to eating their dinners, completely unconcerned.  It's not like it's really disturbing; hell, a crying baby in a restaurant is a whole lot more conspicuous and disturbing to patrons.

I think you might think you would feel uncomfortable because you are feeling like you're seeing an "adult" dynamic at play - which it really isn't.  Martial arts Teachers do this to their students quite frequently.  It's not about any kind of sexualized Ds; my Teacher and I do not have a sexual relationship. 

I figure most people assume I'd lost a bet.  If I were seeing something like that, I'd think something along those lines.  I certainly wouldn't figure it to be a Ds scenario.

Hope this makes sense to you.

Peggy

(in reply to velvetears)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 1:56:48 PM   
pamperingurfeet


Posts: 5
Joined: 5/18/2007
Status: offline 		probably when he cares more for what you can to do him than what he can do for you.

(in reply to gothique)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 2:34:13 PM   
robertolapiedra


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeggyO

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i'm not trying to judge what you and your dom do but if i were in a restaurant trying to enjoy my evening, especially if i had my children with  me, your doing push ups would raise an eyebrow and i would feel uncomfortable with that. It is rather odd public behavior.  Have you ever been questioned by waiters or other patrons, or can this be done discretely?  Side of the road or airport wouldn't be as conspicusous.


Hi,

Actually you'd be amazed at how few people actually notice someone doing pushups.  No one has ever asked me anything or commented to me on it.  Actually an airport is much more conspicuous.  But the truth here - no one cares.  It took me a long time to really believe that, but observing other people, people look curiously, then go back to eating their dinners, completely unconcerned.  It's not like it's really disturbing; hell, a crying baby in a restaurant is a whole lot more conspicuous and disturbing to patrons.

I think you might think you would feel uncomfortable because you are feeling like you're seeing an "adult" dynamic at play - which it really isn't.  Martial arts Teachers do this to their students quite frequently.  It's not about any kind of sexualized Ds; my Teacher and I do not have a sexual relationship. 

I figure most people assume I'd lost a bet.  If I were seeing something like that, I'd think something along those lines.  I certainly wouldn't figure it to be a Ds scenario.

Hope this makes sense to you.

Peggy


Hello PeggyO. In Japan most people would assume that you are part of a Dojo or a training program of sorts for management positions in a big firm and this, with public pushups, sit-ups or "recitations". Here? as you say, lost a bet, dare etc, (as long as you are not in an evening gown!) 'if' it is pushups and the like.

That is far different from getting out of car buck naked and running in broad daylight  to a mail box to post the doms mail. I think you know how ultra humiliating this is for a japanese in his/her culture.

You would not see this in a more classical japanese style. As you said, the punishment is immediate most of the time. It is done to obtain Damocles Sword effect. The 'submissive' knowing that he/she would be immediately reprimanded on the spot develops strong self discipline skills.

But stripping you down and breaking out the flogger? Or having you run naked in public? That is 'normally' out of the question for public humiliation.

Good luck with your 'apprenticeship'. RL.

Edit: word missing

< Message edited by robertolapiedra -- 5/18/2007 2:40:56 PM >

(in reply to PeggyO)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 3:13:37 PM   
KeirasSecret


Posts: 415
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: central NH
Status: offline
quote:

I need to know how others have handled reluctnat-to-speak sub/slaves.
What will motivate them to speak? 


Welllll, there this one time, when Sir had asked me a question, and when I didn’t respond fast enough he reached out and gave my tit a quick slap. That seemed to work; the words just popped right out after that. :) Of course this might not be the same type of situation, I was actually trying to answer, but was having a brain stuttering issue.

When I am having a hard time tell Sir something, it helps if I ask if he wants to know, then it becomes an order. Perhaps, if it came across more as an order for her to speak?

Also, possibly, more specific questions.

In my experience, if someone is not speaking there is usually a reason, find the reason; you’ll be able to figure out how to fix it.

Other wise… there is always option one. ;)

k

(in reply to gothique)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 3:41:34 PM   
slaveish


Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mellissande

Most subs and slaves will Adjust their behaviour when they realize that what they do will get another punished and not themselves


Oh yes. It is most definitely motivating. Thanks for your thoughts, Mellissande.

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You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 7:35:38 PM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meticulousgirl
Are you jelous of her?  that's what it almost sounds like because your wrapped up in a problem that really has nothing to do with you?

This isn't an attack I'm just trying to figure out where your coming from....


yes, I did go to your profile, click on forum posts, only to see waht kind of posts you write young one....  I stopped at number 8 down the list... and my intuition was correct.
 
and I have discovered, you seem to assume alot about people taht you have NO right to assume....

and once again the jealousy thingy pops up...
 
From my many years on this earth ~~ life expereince, knowledge, education, just being employed and "OLD" ~~  you sure accuse folk of that nasty green monster....so I wonder,  those who fixate on one thing seem to be bothered by it....you bothered by something called jealousy dear?

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.


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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 8:23:57 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: shyinini
From my many years on this earth ~~ life expereince, knowledge, education, just being employed and "OLD" ~~  you sure accuse folk of that nasty green monster....so I wonder,  those who fixate on one thing seem to be bothered by it....you bothered by something called jealousy dear?

Well at least she's not a passive aggressive openly condescending defensive snit.  Cuz that would really suck.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 5/18/2007 8:30:06 PM >

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 10:04:35 PM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: shyinini
From my many years on this earth ~~ life expereince, knowledge, education, just being employed and "OLD" ~~  you sure accuse folk of that nasty green monster....so I wonder,  those who fixate on one thing seem to be bothered by it....you bothered by something called jealousy dear?

Well at least she's not a passive aggressive openly condescending defensive snit.  Cuz that would really suck.


LOL  does it take one to know one?

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.


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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/18/2007 10:36:35 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: shyinini
LOL  does it take one to know one?

While I certainly do have a certain level of proficiency in those things, no, one doesn't need to be those things in order to see them glaring like a huge neon sign when it's right in front of you.

Your post was ESPECIALLY amusing after your attempt to knock people down for being "judgemental" in the infidelity thread.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/19/2007 12:10:54 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		 
The problem I have with public anything is non-consensual kink.

I dont like it when other people air their dirty laundry in my face, I prefer to not
air mine in theirs.  I am a big fan of the "take it offline" approach.

Sinergy

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(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/19/2007 12:37:34 AM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Now, did she really have to run naked in public, or are you just using that as an example. Seeing as I have not read the whole thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra


That is far different from getting out of car buck naked and running in broad daylight  to a mail box to post the doms mail.




But stripping you down and breaking out the flogger? Or having you run naked in public? That is 'normally' out of the question for public humiliation.

Good luck with your 'apprenticeship'. RL.

Edit: word missing


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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/19/2007 4:16:32 AM   
PeggyO


Posts: 129
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra



Hello PeggyO. In Japan most people would assume that you are part of a Dojo or a training program of sorts for management positions in a big firm and this, with public pushups, sit-ups or "recitations". Here? as you say, lost a bet, dare etc, (as long as you are not in an evening gown!) 'if' it is pushups and the like.

That is far different from getting out of car buck naked and running in broad daylight  to a mail box to post the doms mail. I think you know how ultra humiliating this is for a japanese in his/her culture.

You would not see this in a more classical japanese style. As you said, the punishment is immediate most of the time. It is done to obtain Damocles Sword effect. The 'submissive' knowing that he/she would be immediately reprimanded on the spot develops strong self discipline skills.

But stripping you down and breaking out the flogger? Or having you run naked in public? That is 'normally' out of the question for public humiliation.

Good luck with your 'apprenticeship'. RL.

Edit: word missing


Hello,

I'm sure not where the stripped naked in public example comes from.  For me that isn't public humiliation - that's how to get someone arrested.  I have never been asked to do anything that is outside my ethical boundaries or that would get me thrown in jail.  I have been asked plenty of times to do things outside my comfort zone, but never anything such as the examples in your post.  Certainly in my relationship it would be considered a huge breach of etiquette for him to strip me naked and take a flogger to me.  That would be considered sexual in nature; we do not have a sexual relationship and sexual issues are considered off-limits within the bounds of our relationship.

One of the things to point out about the Japanese model is that telling the Teacher "no" terminates the relationship.  You are expected to obey orders to the best of your ability without questioning them.  If you do something wrong you are expected to take ownership of it and not place the blame on something or someone else.  The moral to the story is that you had better really know the person you are allowing to teach you if you choose this model of relationship, since it has a very strong TPE element to it.  The differences, at least in my situation as uchideshi, is there are things about my life that are not considered appropriate areas for him to have authority in.  My career, my finances and my sex life are my own responsibility.    My work responsibilities supercede my responsibilities to the house.  Otherwise, my responsibilities to the house are first priority.  This can lead to issues in terms of meeting people because some want a level of relationship and time commitment that I am not prepared to offer.

However, the reward for the commitment and work this type of model has been, for me, a huge amount of personal growth and a real boost in my self esteem - which needed it.  But it's also a path that, in the eyes of people with a Western sensibility, is a very harsh one without the "niceties" that we expect from relationships that have a high level of emotional connection and energy.

Be well,

Peggy

(in reply to robertolapiedra)
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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/19/2007 4:57:37 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		This has been an interesting thread to read. 

Peggy, I enjoyed getting a glimpse of the interactions between you and Fifth Angel.  I am going to have to do some more research to get a better appreciation of this structure. 

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/19/2007 6:09:20 AM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveish

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mellissande

Most subs and slaves will Adjust their behaviour when they realize that what they do will get another punished and not themselves


Oh yes. It is most definitely motivating. Thanks for your thoughts, Mellissande.


Oh my I must share this....
Our domme friend was looking for a unique punishment for one of her girls.  She sent her to a dom (the girl knew the dom) to be spanked for her transgression ~she did a really bad top from the bottom.  The girl wrote about her punishment and how it so excited her that she masturbated the moment she got to her car and as soon as she got home.
 
I spoke to Sir about this and he told me he and our domme friend had already spoken in regards to a more effective punishment for this girl.  I  have never met her in person, but we communicate on a message board much like this. 
The effective punishment involved me, but my Sir wanted to know first, before he responded to the domme if I would be willing to be involved.  When I found out what he had in mind, I agreed.
 
I agreed for several reasons...
1. Because my Sir is well respected
2. He also knows the girl who transgressed
3. The girl has publically stated she admired my relationship with Sir
4. I posted that in no way should a punishment be that arousing, IMHO, and MsT agreeed and posted the girl would recieve a more effective punishment
5. Sir and I are about helping others learn
 
So... she will appear at his home, proceed to be prepared for her punishment,  but I will receive it.  How do I feel about this? When the moment comes I have a feeling I will be very angry with her for being so foolish and she will see how I take my discipline...the brush is NOT fun for my ass nor for my mind frame, nor for my emotions.  I hope she learns her lesson well.

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.


(in reply to slaveish)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/19/2007 6:11:24 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		I'm curious if she ever did answer honestly and got punished for giving an honest answer. Such as "Right now I think I damn near hate you and that you are a self centered prick".

See that's an honest answer and if it ever received a response such as "You will now be punished for speaking in a manner that didn't include the respect I demand" then she's learned that he doesn't want honesty. But instead he wants someone to give him the answer he fantasizes about "Oh thank you all knowing Domly one for punishing this so unworthy slave".

Most subs are smart enough to learn the first time that giving a really honest answer will elicit a response that proves honesty isn't what he was looking for. And yes, it only takes one stupid, egotistical and ballistic response to honesty, especially in the beginning, for the sub to learn that it isn't safe to tell the truth.

Start setting up a relationship with real communication instead of using rituals and protocols to keep intimacy at bay.

(in reply to aldompdx)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Slave behavior that irritates - 5/19/2007 8:28:50 AM   
robertolapiedra


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline
[/quote]

Hello,

I'm sure not where the stripped naked in public example comes from.  For me that isn't public humiliation - that's how to get someone arrested.  I have never been asked to do anything that is outside my ethical boundaries or that would get me thrown in jail.

One of the things to point out about the Japanese model is that telling the Teacher "no" terminates the relationship.  You are expected to obey orders to the best of your ability without questioning them.
__________________________________________________________________

Where does it come from? It comes from 'selecting' aspects of style and techniques to suit one's own sordid agenda.

With modern communications, what we call japanese or western styles have becomed more historical 'references' than true factual contemporary practices. Today you will not find those practices as most of them have becomed illegal (because of the 'abuse' component). Of course there are 'honorable 21th century adaptations' but unfortunately,  less honorable ones also (where mental health issues arise).

The extreme examples? It is simply using the "don't say no, if you do? the relationship is terminated! (precept)" selected 'aspect' and combining this with some false perception of western humiliation fantasies. They blur the line between the 'public exhibition kink' (which is very prevalent in some sex sites) and the 'real' humiliating public exhibition of a submissive who fears dismissal if she does not comply. (running to the letter box naked example)

Bullshit is universal. The japanese have 'masters' in that field as well. I find some people should beware of 'exotic' variants of M/s as 'some' of these may not all comply to the safe, sane and consensual principals. Even if there is no sex involved.

There are traditional relationships in which non compliance to a principle will terminate things on the spot. Take infidelity in a traditional mariage for example. Some D/s apply this to commitment. Some D/s use this as a 'tool'.

Whatever works for you, but one should always think of safety first, physical and mental.

Respectfuly, RL.

(in reply to PeggyO)
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