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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/21/2007 11:13:06 AM   
HutchGarahl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

Abortion is murder.

Darlin....i've held this view my entire life, but sometimes, even something as bad as this need to be rethought.
(I can't believe I just said that)

If you don't want to have a child, then use birthcontrol ALL the time

That deosn't always work. Two of my kids are living proof. Not only did I use the pill, but used rubber as well.

Thier is NO justification for murdering a child, that is what an abortion is, murder. It stops a beating heart, therefor it is murder. I pray every day for Roe v.Wade to be overturned, when that happens, I want it to be made a felony, just like any other murder or henius crime, its torture and murder, simple as that.

Would you rather mom go to a back alley or use a coathanger and take the risk of killing herself as well?

Those who DO support this murder, have you ever SEEN an abortion preformed? The baby MOVES, it reacts to pain, its alive and responsive. The baby get sucked out with a vaccum like device, its head gets crushed, and all the while, its moving and ALIVE. 

Yes....I have seen real abortions. and yes...it's very ugly...one of the reason why I have been against abortion for so long.


After my last post here last night, I ended up calling my daughter to talk to my grandaughter. After speaking with the little one, her mom takes the phone and asks me what's wrong. I said..Who said anything was wrong? She comes back with..Mom, your calling at 3am to talk to the baby. She got me on that. That's something I don't do. So I told her about this discussion...told her about the different things people said here and of course what I said.
 
She said..."How did I feel I was any different than what the government was trying to do?" I asked her to explain and she asked if I remembered what I said a few years ago when she first came to me about being pregnat and thinking of abortion.....I remembered what I said clear as day.
 
"If you didn't want a kid, you should have kept your legs closed. Not only are you going to carry and give birth to this child, but your going to get a job, care for it, teach it what it needs to know and be a mother to it. You made your bed, now your going to lay in it."
 
I became so dumfounded. She was right....I was no better than the government. I apologized to her for it, but she said not to as she was glad I made her keep the baby, she loves the baby. She told me to remember, that not every woman making this choice had the backing she had raising her child. I again asked what she meant...She said..."The whole time raising my little girl, who was there to correct me when I made a mistake, who picked me up when I fell....who took the baby when she became too much for me, who has always been there and is still there if I need...you mom.
 
Unfortunately, a lot of women making the choice to abort, don't have someone there to hold their hand if they decide to keep the baby. They don't always have someone to hug them and assure them that the child they carry through rape is not going to turn out like the dad who made it...or comfort the memories as the child is a reminder of rape. They don't always have the resources to raise a normal child, much less one that might be born with a disibility."
 
And we continued talking till almost 6am. I was so awestruck by what my daughter was telling me. She's a bright kid. She also made one more statement before hanging the phone...."Mom....just because you may change your opinion...one you've carried for so long....doesn't mean your any less of a person....it just means you've finally woken up." And with that, I layed my head down as a tear strolled down the side of my face.

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/21/2007 11:34:17 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

And we continued talking till almost 6am. I was so awestruck by what my daughter was telling me. She's a bright kid. She also made one more statement before hanging the phone...."Mom....just because you may change your opinion...one you've carried for so long....doesn't mean your any less of a person....it just means you've finally woken up." And with that, I layed my head down as a tear strolled down the side of my face.



I have to agree with your daughter, HutchGarahl.

It doesnt make you any less of a person.  The older I get, the more I realize how little I know, and how invalid my opinion might or might not be.

In a sense, I am envious of Bush's ability to be unswerving and unwavering in his convictions.  I cannot think of many things without wondering to myself "what if Im wrong?"

There are no easy answers to this or any other question, but I firmly believe we all have to find our way to get to where we are going together, or we will not get there, wherever "there" is.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/21/2007 11:42:29 AM   
CrimsonMoan


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Just when things are slowing down in comes the next person shouting MURDER. -.- *sighs* As for the bible humpers with one hand they say they live by the bible and with the other they want to place a strangle hold on free will. The Bible is just one of those things that makes me laugh sometimes. The commandments say do not kill, BUT further along you get passages like eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.  Hell Anton Levay's Satanic Bible is at least not full of hypocrisy. (I read it in college during cram sessions to stay awake)

Back to the subject at hand ABORTION. This falls along into the catergory of Gay Marriage. What Adults decide for themselves behind closed doors is no one elses business. Not the Goverment and certainly not people who i never met and NEVER will meet. Outlaw legal medical abortions and you'll just make business good for the herbalist. Before abortion as we know it in the medical sense was around there were natural ways herbal ways of terminating a pregnancy. Overturning Roe v Wade will stop nothing.

Heres another thing to think of, women in  abusive relationship. Before you say they can just walk away and get help. That is not always true. There are women married to police officers, people who are supposed to uphold the law, but instead break it everyday with the horror they put their wives through. Is it right to bring a child into this? What about other women who suffer in abusive relationship who have children and then later have those same children taken from them by the bastards who have tormented them and used a means to further control their spouses. Are you saying you'd rather those children be alive and living in that and later repeating the cycle rather never having to live that life, see that life?

(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/21/2007 11:47:51 AM   
daddysprop247


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fast reply, have only skimmed the thread...

i have always been very firmly pro-choice...the government has no place to tell people what to do with their own bodies, and i do not feel that a fetus/embryo which if born would be incapable of sustaining life, should have more rights than the woman carrying it within her body. i've had more than one abortion in addition to a miscarriage. no regrets.

although this is Off-Topic, i thought i would point out one thing. although i feel the government has no place to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body, that woman's Master does. my last abortion was ordered by my Master, and my opinion wasn't really asked until after the fact. from past experience i knew well the stress and agony of dealing with an abortion and never wanted to experience that again...given my own way, i likely would have chosen closed adoption. however as my Owner it was my Master's decision. so while i am a strong advocate of certain rights for free people, i don't feel these rights carry over to those of us who are slaves.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/21/2007 3:05:40 PM   
CrimsonMoan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
although this is Off-Topic, i thought i would point out one thing. although i feel the government has no place to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body, that woman's Master does. my last abortion was ordered by my Master, and my opinion wasn't really asked until after the fact. from past experience i knew well the stress and agony of dealing with an abortion and never wanted to experience that again...given my own way, i likely would have chosen closed adoption. however as my Owner it was my Master's decision. so while i am a strong advocate of certain rights for free people, i don't feel these rights carry over to those of us who are slaves.


I don't know maybe its because I am a switch or because my first and longest Owner was a woman, but I believe even a Master has no say in something like this. Hey every relatioship is different so i have no place to judge yours, but even still. I stand by that no man Master or otherwise gets to make a choice like that but hey whatever works for you.

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/21/2007 3:40:11 PM   
MadameDahlia


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The views I hold will probably be a bit strange to some, probably downright offensive to others. Just the same, I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one who has thought of the matter in such a way.

Parasite (n): Biology - An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

In my opinion the fetus/child (call it what you will) is an internal parasite until it is able to live outside of the host without any medical assistance... machines, etc.

After all, without the life sustaining placenta the body would outright reject and seek to expel the developing organism. The body has to form these tissues for in utero development to even be possible.

Some might call my outlook cold. Some might think it clinical. And I'm sure any number of folks will think it's flat out wrong. But I'm just saying that it's my take on the issue.

I only mention my opinion because it is one of many reasons I support the rights of someone seeking to terminate a gestation period.

Can I be certain that the government will never interfere and lay claim to what goes on in someone's uterus? No. But I sincerely hope that Roe v. Wade is never overturned.


_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to daddysprop247)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/21/2007 3:50:09 PM   
CrimsonMoan


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Madam i don't think you cold at all because it is true. Shit i even wrote a damn monolouge in high school in which a pregnant mother refers to her developing child aas a parasite. So you are not the only person who has ever has this thought.

(in reply to MadameDahlia)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/21/2007 4:36:06 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

but if God didn't intend for us to eat cows, why did he make them so tasty....


If G-d didn't intend for us to have the choice of an abortion, why did he create the possibility in the first place?




Even intelligent designers have brain farts?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 3:20:03 AM   
HutchGarahl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

And we continued talking till almost 6am. I was so awestruck by what my daughter was telling me. She's a bright kid. She also made one more statement before hanging the phone...."Mom....just because you may change your opinion...one you've carried for so long....doesn't mean your any less of a person....it just means you've finally woken up." And with that, I layed my head down as a tear strolled down the side of my face.



I have to agree with your daughter, HutchGarahl.

It doesnt make you any less of a person.  The older I get, the more I realize how little I know, and how invalid my opinion might or might not be.

I totally agree with ya here. I am finding in my life, there's still so much more to learn. I used to think as being an adult, I knew everything I needed to know...but now find I was totally wrong on that. Admitting I needed to learn more, was a big step for me. It's funny when I think about it though...as I think back when my little ones were little...just how much they actually taught me.

In a sense, I am envious of Bush's ability to be unswerving and unwavering in his convictions.  I cannot think of many things without wondering to myself "what if Im wrong?"

There are no easy answers to this or any other question, but I firmly believe we all have to find our way to get to where we are going together, or we will not get there, wherever "there" is.

Sinergy


quote:

Parasite (n): Biology - An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

In my opinion the fetus/child (call it what you will) is an internal parasite until it is able to live outside of the host without any medical assistance... machines, etc.

After all, without the life sustaining placenta the body would outright reject and seek to expel the developing organism. The body has to form these tissues for in utero development to even be possible.


Strange yes, but an interesting way of looking at it. I've never actually thought of an unborn as being a parasite....but I guess in a way your right.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 4:53:58 AM   
MadameDahlia


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Parasites, for a time... yes.

But don't get me wrong... I think the squirming little bundles are utterly cute once they've been born, washed up and given a chance for their heads to become less pointed and their faces less purple (but not necessarily so cute when they're screaming to be fed in the middle of the night or in the early morning). I think they're a marvel when they take their first steps... say their first word... give you their first smile. I think that their first All Hallow's Eve presents an endearing picture, when they're dressed up like a peapod, or some other bean or vegetable.

And I certainly don't advocate using abortion as a birth control method. Definitely not a whole lotta control going on there if you need to pop round to the clinic every few days for a quickie flush of the internals. Those sorts are better off getting themselves sterilized. But, for me, in recognizing that the developing organism cannot exist outside of the womb in the earlier stages I am able to easily come to the conclusion that abortion is a logical solution to products of incest or rape... and in cases where the pregnancy poses a threat to the woman... or in cases where genetic testing has shown that the results of the pregnancy will not survive too long after birth, or will not survive without endless amounts of attention, resources and emotional and physical strength.

Sometimes the worst things happen to the best people who have the best of intentions.

Sometimes pregnancies result in progeria, Tay-Sachs, Down Syndrome and other very serious genetic disorders... disorders that rock the foundation of a marriage, sometimes breaking it apart... disorders that leave new mothers wondering what they've done wrong and if they could have done anything to affect the outcome. The use of science and reason doesn't always assuage their feelings of guilt and hopelessness.

These kinds of disorders drain the new parent or parents. And some parents want to fight. Some parents want to spend whatever time they can with their child, hoping that the good memories will overshadow all of the negatives. More power to them. But others are left to become hollow shells and possibly suicidal once they have no more fight left in them.


_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to HutchGarahl)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 4:58:13 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameDahlia

The views I hold will probably be a bit strange to some, probably downright offensive to others. Just the same, I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one who has thought of the matter in such a way.

Parasite (n): Biology - An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

In my opinion the fetus/child (call it what you will) is an internal parasite until it is able to live outside of the host without any medical assistance... machines, etc.

After all, without the life sustaining placenta the body would outright reject and seek to expel the developing organism. The body has to form these tissues for in utero development to even be possible.

Some might call my outlook cold. Some might think it clinical. And I'm sure any number of folks will think it's flat out wrong. But I'm just saying that it's my take on the issue.

I only mention my opinion because it is one of many reasons I support the rights of someone seeking to terminate a gestation period.

Can I be certain that the government will never interfere and lay claim to what goes on in someone's uterus? No. But I sincerely hope that Roe v. Wade is never overturned.



Thing is that parasites aren't always bad things. Leeches in history have been used for madicinal purposes. And there is massive research still going on as to the ability to use them for the greater good rather than seeing them as strictly an annoyance. As for a fetus...it acts as a parasite yes. That's the physical and biological way of looking at it because it's not a sentient (sp?) being. So cold in the sense of lacking the emotion behind it that pro-lifers use...yeah...cold in the sense of just looking at in a biological sense...nah. It makes good sense from your view of arguement. So whatever.

(in reply to MadameDahlia)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 5:54:34 AM   
MadameDahlia


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You make a good point. However, I never doubted that certain organisms that are considered to be parasitic in nature can't also be beneficial, at times - and, almost always, through controlled circumstances. A growing fetus/child/potential-ankle-biter, on the other hand, does not contribute anything in terms of resources to the host. Just the same, I'm sure plenty of happy and willing mothers-to-be could argue that the bun in the oven gives them a wealth of warm fuzzies... which makes up for the swollen ankles, aching back and watermelon shaped stomach in the long run.

Leeches, as you've mentioned, have been used for quite some time. Some of the uses are more beneficial than others. Bloodletting or "Bleeding therapy" isn't exactly an ideal use of the critters if you're dealing with someone healthy. Then again... Barbers cut into clients with razors (not to mention administer enemas, perform tooth extractions and surgeries). Loads more of that fun information here for any interested: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A896664 In spite of that, it was a fairly popular medical 'treatment', I believe, in the 1800s. And they're still being used today.

"Medicinal leeches are also used in the treatment of other veinous deseases such as thrombophlebitis, as well as angina pectoris, arthritis, hematomas, and even tinnitus." ~ http://www.bterfoundation.org/indexfiles/leechrx.htm

However, it's important to make the distinction between the parasite being naturally beneficial as opposed to being used by someone in a contained and controlled environment. It's the difference between encountering maggots in your trash atop mystery meat... or having them applied to a burn victim, so that they can eat away the dead and/or crispy flesh so that surgeons don't have to cut into much of the good flesh.

There are other examples of creatures that share a symbiotic relationship, such as the one between the Striped Cleaner Wrasse and other fish. The wrasse eats harmful parasites off of fish that stop in at it's "cleaning station" (most often a cave or overhang). And while the relationship is beneficial, the wrasse can't truly be called a parasite.  Though it does subsist by way of feeding off of another organism, it fails to meet the other criterium used to describe a parasite (grows in/on and lives in/on the organism).

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to BoiJen)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 6:08:09 AM   
darkinshadows


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I had a desire to add having known someone with Tay Sachs and having good friends who have Downs.
There are many many seriously dangerous and painful genetic diseases - but there are also many wonderful genetic and non genetic complaints that considering aborting a child for is incredibly lame.  Any one of our children could step out of the door and be infected or suffer from heart complaints, cancer etc. so using abortion to destroy a human for these reasons is not being responsible and considering all possibilities in the first place before one becomes pregnant.
 
I am not anti abortion but I am anti cop-out.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 6:37:27 AM   
farglebargle


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So when G-d spontaneously aborts a fetus due to a lack of viability, he's copping out?



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 6:49:39 AM   
darkinshadows


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Making the assumption (rightly or wrongly) G-d is bringing religion into the discussion, I ain't biting as not everyone believe in the same.
Unless you want me to say that using religion as an excuse to stop abortion is a cop out - then I would agree without a doubt.
 
But I do stand by being anti copout.  Many people believe conception, childbirth and raising to be an easy process.  Lack of education ? - maybe.  But we have the ability to educate ourselves - personal responsibility an all that.
 
Peace


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 6:54:56 AM   
farglebargle


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So, we have free will for no purpose?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 7:00:49 AM   
darkinshadows


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Do not bother with the whole 'free will' thang with me fargle - I am the wrong person to try that with
Spontaneous abortions are a different kettle of panfried-water-dwelling-species to induced(electiveandtheraputic) abortions.
Oh and free will IS personal responsibility.
 
Peace


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 5/22/2007 7:09:18 AM >


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 7:06:19 AM   
imthatacheyouhav


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

So, we have free will for no purpose?

since when is murder a purpose?


_____________________________

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(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 7:18:20 AM   
farglebargle


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The invasion and occupation of Iraq?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 7:30:26 AM   
CrimsonMoan


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You know war is not normally about murder but considering what out soldiers have been put on trial for doing...I  have to agree with FB. And before someone jumps up my ass let me make somethign clear, my fatehr was a vet of 'nam. TWO tours. I have family, friends and lovers enlisted and serving. I stand behidn our men and women 100% but we need to get out of there. The longer we stay the worse we look. The same things that are happening now happend in 'nam. Women and girls were raped and if they were lucky killed. Those left alive were forced to deal with the stigma of beign raped and possibly raising a child born from that.

Now look at muslim countries like. Do you think any of these rape victims if still alive stand a chance at a normal life? These children stand a chance? They will be lucky if they are left exposed as soon as they are born.  However they do not have access to SAFE abortion methods like we do here. But hey its another country and I have always believed unless its a humanitarian issue we have no place judging how they live their lives.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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