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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 1:40:06 AM   
LookiLoo


Posts: 9
Joined: 4/30/2007
Status: offline 		I have read through the bulk of the posts here and I have to say we have a pretty clear cross section of views here. I am going to add to this as one who has had an abortion. I did so because I was neither emotionally, financially or legally in a position to have that child. I say legally because I am an immigrant and was in the INS application hell, meaning that I was married to an american and I had no social security number, no work permit and no way to obtain healthcare.
My husband and I decided this was not our time. I have no regrets. I know we did the right thing for us. You don't have to agree or even like it, but until you wake up in my life and walk my shoes you don't get a say! And thats the way we should all see this problem. We don't walk in other women's shoes and so we have no right to tell them what they do is wrong or murder.
As for men telling a woman what to do with her body! We are not chattel and we have the right to do what we want with our bodies. I don't think any rational person is for late term abortions without solid medical grounds, so I see no reason to muddy the waters of this debate with that issue.
However abortion is and should be a right. I have been raped and I can tell you personally I am glad everyday that the only thing that reminds me of that event is my sensory memory, the occasional smell will trigger a memory. I cannot imagine having to give birth to the product of a rape.
There are far worse issues in society today than what your neighbour is doing with her uterus. There are over 40 million people with no healthcare in this country. Our soldiers are coming home to substandard services and little post combat support. Our goverment has taken us to war not once but twice in the last six years. Oil companies are gouging us to the tune of millions while people in Nigeria live on refinery effluent soden ground!
Seriously, lets see some of the energy expressed in this debate put to some good. Stop worrying about what other women are or are not doing. If you are against abortion, don't have one! But please... lets move on!

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 2:44:55 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Fargle and Julia, I agree with your love of freedom.  However there are responsiblities when you live in a society.  we all give up freedoms when we agree to live in the comfort and security of civilization.  It is not authoritarian to set ethical standards in a society.  I do not want suicide to be condoned or legal.  I can only imagine suicide superstores propping up all over America if that happened.  I can see the commercials selling two for one deals on nooses and vials of poison.  I can imagine informercials selling videos and instruction books on the best method for a painless self termination. 

I don't want to live in a world where people put their own selfish desires before the needs of the community.  That is not freedom; it is narcissism and selfishness.  We do not live on our own little islands free from social responsibility.   

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 5:53:33 AM   
HutchGarahl


Posts: 562
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		Well...I gotta admit, you guys really got me thinking. I've never gotten this deep into a conversation pertaining to this subject before, not even face to face. Everyone has brought up some very valid points and have given me a whole lot to think about, and yes...some things I honestly didn't even know. I thank you all for this.....While I will always value life itself....I do think I need to think about this now with my eyes and heart open a little more than just it being my opinion. I know I can be very bullheaded in my opinions.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 6:01:25 AM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		HutchGarahl I understand loving life and cherishing it. Remember please? That those facing this choice are alive and living life as best they can.
Having a choice doesn't always mean going for an abortion it means just that, having the choice to decide for themselves instead of an arbitrary stranger deciding for them.
BTW I am a murderer too... I was fifteen. I literally did not know how sex/pregnancy worked. I denied the truth by immersing myself in drugs (it was the 70's), had I continued the pregnancy it would have resulted in a seriously messed up progeny. As well as destroying my chance at college & a normal life. I never once felt guilty nor ashamed because it was my choice. I SAW the results of my abortion so I know what happens.
I'm so glad that you feel that you glimpsed another way of seeing this issue. Thats what it is all about, seeing other sides.
Remarkably flame-free thread!

*edited because I waffled on whether or not to post this lol.

< Message edited by cjenny -- 5/20/2007 6:12:42 AM >

_____________________________

*Unless I cite a source it is MO.


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(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 6:49:07 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

However there are responsiblities when you live in a society. we all give up freedoms when we agree to live in the comfort and security of civilization.


quote:


We hold these truths to be self-evident,

that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. —

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, —

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


The 2 extremes of Government are ANARCHY ( ZERO Government Control ) and COMMUNISM ( MAXIMUM Government Control ).

Neither is wholly desirable, but I'll take erroring on the side of LESS GOVERNMENT CONTROL.




_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 7:16:46 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

However there are responsiblities when you live in a society.  we all give up freedoms when we agree to live in the comfort and security of civilization.  It is not authoritarian to set ethical standards in a society.


All laws are about social control... all laws. We make a decision about what social control we agree with and what social control we do not agree with. Some people think alcohol should be completely illegal. Some people think that consensual non missionary position  sex should be illegal. Some think we should only have sex for reproduction (John Ashcroft springs to mind), so who in society decides what is ethical.. you?

One does not have to condone a behavior to decide that people have the right to engage in that behavior... consensually. I do not condone suicide or intoxicating substances...I just do no think the government should tell us what to do. For example, in many states sodomy is illegal.

So while I think laws are important, I do not agree with laws that seek to control the destiny of women or their wombs. Your opinion is not enough to abridge my rights.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 7:39:15 AM   
outlier


Posts: 1111
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

Well...I gotta admit, you guys really got me thinking. I've never gotten this deep into a conversation pertaining to this subject before, not even face to face. Everyone has brought up some very valid points and have given me a whole lot to think about, and yes...some things I honestly didn't even know. I thank you all for this.....While I will always value life itself....I do think I need to think about this now with my eyes and heart open a little more than just it being my opinion. I know I can be very bullheaded in my opinions.


                                           

HutchGarahl,

Congratulations on the most adult post I have seen on this site in some time.
Not because of this topic, but because we could all use more of this attitude.

Outlier


_____________________________

Avatar from xkcd.com

"A happy sex life may take years to achieve, but it’s worth it in the long run.
Worth the time, the thought - or rather, the thoughtfulness - and, often,
the waiting." Pete Seeger

(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 7:47:03 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

Well...I gotta admit, you guys really got me thinking. I've never gotten this deep into a conversation pertaining to this subject before, not even face to face. Everyone has brought up some very valid points and have given me a whole lot to think about, and yes...some things I honestly didn't even know. I thank you all for this.....While I will always value life itself....I do think I need to think about this now with my eyes and heart open a little more than just it being my opinion. I know I can be very bullheaded in my opinions.


                                          

HutchGarahl,

Congratulations on the most adult post I have seen on this site in some time.
Not because of this topic, but because we could all use more of this attitude.

Outlier



True

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to outlier)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 8:27:45 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		 
quote:

was fifteen. I literally did not know how sex/pregnancy worked. I denied the truth by immersing myself in drugs (it was the 70's), had I continued the pregnancy it would have resulted in a seriously messed up progeny. As well as destroying my chance at college & a normal life. I never once felt guilty nor ashamed because it was my choice. I SAW the results of my abortion so I know what happens.


Thanks for sharing that cjenny. I think it is important that people understand that not every female that has ever had an abortion is wracked with guilt and shame. That they made this decision in the context of the rest of their lives, and that they had the right to do so. I have had several friends that made this choice also. Only one had any guilt feelings about this choice, the others knew they made the only decision that they felt was really appropriate under the circumstances, and until I walk a mile in their shoes I can tell you that I am in no place to judge

I had one friend that got together with a man and shortly after they moved in together he began to hit her. She left after the second incident, (this was within one week of moving in, she was out by week two, and planned her escape after the first incident) but she was already pregnant. She just could not face this guy who had hit her. She related to me that she was afraid he would use the child as a weapon against her. He probably would have

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to cjenny)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 8:47:27 AM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		It took me a long time to realise that it was okay for me not to feel guilty. I actually felt guilty for not feeling guilty!
At fifteen.. it would have messed up my life in a bad way if someone hadn't finally noticed that yup I was pregnant.
Learning about our biology and sexuality is vital. I don't care if it is done in school or home but it just can't be skipped over. I was ignorant, completely ignorant over the whole 'how does sex work' thing. If I had known I could have prevented it.
IMO youngins today have an advantage I didn't. There was no internet where I could safely and anonymously learn about stuff. My facts of life came from kids my own age.
Thanks julia, it was hard to post that because there are people in this world who would automatically assume things about a girl who had an abortion at 15.
Ignorance on issues like this is a dangerous thing.

My worry is that if choice is taken away from women then where does that end? If we lose even the slightest control over our own bodies that opens the door for other things. That scares the bejeezus out of me, the thought that a stranger could have the legal right over my body. *shudder*

_____________________________

*Unless I cite a source it is MO.


~ ssssh. i think i've just found freedom. ~

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 1:20:36 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Fargle and Julia, I agree with your love of freedom.  However ...


Meaning freedom is okay as long as it's done your way? Sorry hun. It don't work that way. We live in a CAPITALIST society. It's ALL about being selfish.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 1:23:56 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

Well...I gotta admit, you guys really got me thinking. I've never gotten this deep into a conversation pertaining to this subject before, not even face to face. Everyone has brought up some very valid points and have given me a whole lot to think about, and yes...some things I honestly didn't even know. I thank you all for this.....While I will always value life itself....I do think I need to think about this now with my eyes and heart open a little more than just it being my opinion. I know I can be very bullheaded in my opinions.


Congrats. Not many people are grown up enough to see things that way and to be able to take a step back. It takes a lot out of one's self to just observe. For myself I've lived both sides of this arguement...that whole catholic upbringing and now being an adult to have my own feelings and opinions and way of life to be respected for making that choice as an individual. Again, it takes a lot and right on for you.

(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 1:36:32 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

We do not live on our own little islands free from social responsibility.   



Tell that to the previous legislature. 

I am not trying to start a political debate here, but I do want to point out that if Roe V. Wade is overturned it would be people like Gingrich, Delay, Foley, Hastert, Clinton, etc., who would be involved in deciding what a doctor could provide in terms of health care.  People like Ashcroft would be charged with enforcing the laws they set up.

This is not really a slippery slope.  Roe vs. Wade was designed to protect a woman's freedom.

As julia pointed out, mandating that abortion is murder, but allowable in cases of rape or incest, is logically invalid.  The child was conceived and if aborting a child is murder, than aborting a child from rape or incest is also murder.  Why is the line drawn in that instance (rape and incest) more or less valid as a reason for murdering a fetus than a woman not being able to support the child?

It becomes even more invalid with the statement that nobody knows why a child is being born.  This is true, but what does it actually mean and how does it relate to the argument?

It becomes further tied up with the idea that an abortion can be allowed in the best interests of the mother.  Perhaps the mother is supposed to die.  If the mother dies, doesnt the fetus also die? 

That is the main problem I have with anti-abortionists.  Each and every argument they bring to the table is an emotional one.  Bouyed up by their own spiritual or religious beliefs, morals, etc.  I support their right to believe whatever they want to believe, I just object to them attempting to legislate their beliefs on everybody else.

While the same thing could be said about my being pro-choice, I accept that.  But the law used to allow abortion simply provides for a woman's freedom to gain access to medical care.  Is this really a precedent that people want to get rid of?

Where does it end?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 6:06:26 PM   
HutchGarahl


Posts: 562
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		I got an even bigger eye opener today. Coming home from town, a song came on the radio called "Ellisa Lies" (sp?) For the first time in over 20 years, I had tears. All I could think of while this song played was the children born out of unwanted pregnacies. I guess this discussion has me think a whole lot more than I realized.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 6:22:43 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

I got an even bigger eye opener today. Coming home from town, a song came on the radio called "Ellisa Lies" (sp?) For the first time in over 20 years, I had tears. All I could think of while this song played was the children born out of unwanted pregnacies. I guess this discussion has me think a whole lot more than I realized.


"Allisa Lies" By Jason Michael Carol. It's an eye opener for many. Also try listening to Martina McBride's "Concrete Angel." Both great songs. Both far too many children can relate to. Abortion is for the most part a very selfish act. And at times...well...it's not about feeling guilty it's not about feeling bad. It's about knowing how the system is and how things are, and know that it's the best choice for yourself in that moment. And that's all you can hold onto. If you'er really interested in making a change for the better...whatever that maybe for you...seriously think about volunteeringfor your local Planned Parenthood. There's so many things they do outside of helping a woman decide if an abortion is right for her and her situation. DO what's right...change someone's life.

(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 6:31:15 PM   
Viridana


Posts: 754
Status: offline 		When abortion comes up for discussion it usually ends up in either black or white. What I feel is missing from almost every discussion of this sorts is the middle ground. Being pro- choice does by no means that you are pro-abortion. I don't know of a single woman (of sane mind) that is pro-abortion. Abortion is a descision that is (and should) never be taken lightly and I think every woman who has had one has had to think seriously about what she's doing. And the thought process is far from fun. Nobody has an abortion "for the fun of it".or "just because I didn't have anything better to do today".  I've found some pro-lifers to be all too glad to dismiss that fact. I am pro-choice. Would I have an abortion if I would conceive?  Probably not.  But the choice has to be there because each and every woman has different reasons and emotions about why they are doing it. And it's not an easy descision or a descision of the caliber if I should wear my pink shoes today. And that should be respected. 

(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 6:35:48 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Viridana

When abortion comes up for discussion it usually ends up in either black or white. What I feel is missing from almost every discussion of this sorts is the middle ground. Being pro- choice does by no means that you are pro-abortion. I don't know of a single woman (of sane mind) that is pro-abortion. Abortion is a descision that is (and should) never be taken lightly and I think every woman who has had one has had to think seriously about what she's doing. And the thought process is far from fun. Nobody has an abortion "for the fun of it".or "just because I didn't have anything better to do today".  I've found some pro-lifers to be all too glad to dismiss that fact. I am pro-choice. Would I have an abortion if I would conceive?  Probably not.  But the choice has to be there because each and every woman has different reasons and emotions about why they are doing it. And it's not an easy descision or a descision of the caliber if I should wear my pink shoes today. And that should be respected. 


I couldnt agree more, Viridana.  My post was to simply point out that there are those who seek to take the decision away from a woman.

I know people who have had abortions, and it tends to haunt them the rest of their lives.

I know people who refused to have abortions and regretted it the rest of their lives.

There are no easy answers, despite what Ashcroft and his ilk think.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Viridana)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 7:08:59 PM   
CrimsonMoan


Posts: 2652
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Portland, Me via Las Vegas Nv
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I do not want suicide to be condoned or legal....I don't want to live in a world where people put their own selfish desires before the needs of the community.  That is not freedom; it is narcissism and selfishness.  We do not live on our own little islands free from social responsibility.   


How is wanting to die selfish? And what about those who are terminally ill or in constant pain? Are you saying its better for them to continue to SUFFER until they die a slow a painful death, than to take the short road.

My mother died of breast cancer less than a month after my 18th birthday. She was in a coma for the last two weeks. She did not want to be kept alive by artificial means. She died the night she was supposed to go to the hospice. If she had been aware and said to me she wanted to die and stop her suffering, I would NOT have stopped her. I miss my mother every day and wish she was here to help me with my own son, but I would have been the SELFISH one to stop her. IT may seem strange but in  a way I am glad she went the way she did.

I am sorry but your life is your own and if you TRULY wish to check out then that is your right to do so. The selfish peple are those who prolong their loved ones pain rather than accepting things and letting them go.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 7:18:01 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoan

I am sorry but your life is your own and if you TRULY wish to check out then that is your right to do so. The selfish peple are those who prolong their loved ones pain rather than accepting things and letting them go.



In my experience, which is limited to only a handful, those who want to keep the terminally ill alive do so for their own reasons, not for the best interest of the afflicted.

All things that have a beginning, have an end.  Not allowing somebody to die with dignity, in the style of their own choosing, does not, in my opinion, show respect to that person's humanity.

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to CrimsonMoan)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/20/2007 7:19:06 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


All things that have a beginning, have an end.


Only a sausage has two.

Sorry, it's a lot funnier in German.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 160
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