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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 8:13:14 AM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
The older I get, the more I realize how little I know, and how invalid my opinion might or might not be.

In a sense, I am envious of Bush's ability to be unswerving and unwavering in his convictions. I cannot think of many things without wondering to myself "what if Im wrong?"

There are no easy answers to this or any other question, but I firmly believe we all have to find our way to get to where we are going together, or we will not get there, wherever "there" is.

Sinergy

This is such an amazingly honest and brave statement for you to make and i don't see a lot of people, in or out of government, showing the kind of courage to make this bold and honest a statement.

i applaud you for it!

i believe that President Bush is a man of strong convictions, but i also believe that he does question his decisions and doesn't make them easily, because he understands the weight of those decisions and the potential consequences. History will judge whether the decisions he has had to make were the best ones, under the circumstances, but i firmly believe that he is a man of honest and good intentions and he has an incredible task in leading our nation during such a traumatic time.

i personally pray for our president every day, that he will continue to look to God for his inspiration in his decision making & for the strength to continue to make the tough decisions that are facing him, without wavering or backstepping. i wish everyone would pray for him, as well as for each other and our country.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 201

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 8:13:59 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

You know war is not normally about murder

It is about killing though, and most of the people that die in war are women, children, and the elderly...that is just the facts

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CrimsonMoan)

Post #: 202

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 8:16:11 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

i firmly believe that he is a man of honest and good intentions and he has an incredible task in leading our nation during such a traumatic time.

Then why did he, and the others in his administration Conspire to Defraud the Government of the United States, in clear violation of 18USC371?

If he's a man of "honest and good intentions", why did he commit crime to further his agenda?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 203

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 8:25:27 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

I had a desire to add having known someone with Tay Sachs and having good friends who have Downs.
There are many many seriously dangerous and painful genetic diseases - but there are also many wonderful genetic and non genetic complaints that considering aborting a child for is incredibly lame. Any one of our children could step out of the door and be infected or suffer from heart complaints, cancer etc. so using abortion to destroy a human for these reasons is not being responsible and considering all possibilities in the first place before one becomes pregnant.

I am not anti abortion but I am anti cop-out.

Peace and Rapture

I can see why someone may choose this option. If one was considering carrying the baby to term to adopt it out they may choose abortion if they got the news that the child had Downs. It would be very hard to find a home for a child that was Downs Syndrome afflicted. An embryo is the promise of human life, it is not a cop out to decide that the life promised to a child maybe so completely afflicted with misery that it is better that the promise never come to fruition. The children most of us see in our society with Downs are at the more functional end of the scale. The ones that are profoundly impacted are usually institutionalized for life, have no quality of life. So you are basing this opinion by a sampling of the ones that were least severly impacted. I would carry a child with Downs to term, but I am not going to make a blanket statement about other people's lives that I do not know.

My sister's husband is a carrier for the cystic fibrosis gene. They are infertile anyways (for reasons that are not important to the discussion). They were talking about fertilizing her egg with his sperm and decided against this measure, because of his genetic predisposition that he found out about while undergoing infertility treatments.

There are many people that carry genetic time bombs like this, and when a pregnancy results, I do not fault them for having an abortion because of the likelihood that their genetic material will be passed down in the form of cystic fibrosis one day is pretty high. I would not carry a child to term with this disease... call me a cop out person. I think that people who carry this gene should not reproduce, but they have the freedom to do that.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 204

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 8:26:07 AM

CrimsonMoan

Posts: 2652
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Portland, Me via Las Vegas Nv
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

You know war is not normally about murder

It is about killing though, and most of the people that die in war are women, children, and the elderly...that is just the facts

I know this. I am saying most wars are normally more than just about killing the other side.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 205

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 8:50:17 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Hello julia

My thought and point is that if you do carry such a gene I agree with you, carrying a child to term with this disease isn't a cop out, but getting pregnant when you know the risks involved and then saying that you are aborting a child because it has the potential to have that disease is the cop-out - instead of saying 'I am completely aware I am unable to function to the capacity that will give a child who may possibly have this disease quality of life.' The cop out is being unable to accept it was their personal responsibility of becoming pregnant in the first place.

As for those suffering from Downs and other similar complaints, I would suggest that those people who suffer from downs do come in extremely wide ranging forms. Many of the downs you may come across on the street may be at the high end of the scale, but there are a huge amount of downs who aren't and are able to hold steady jobs, are capable of incredible emotions and able to contribute to society in a major way - let alone their capacity to love. They have incredible empathic abilities. To be frank, I wouldnt be surprised in a few years or ten where they discover a genetic disposition to such 'disablities' as ADD, autism et al and then offer abortion then. And I have seen many, many posters here on CM and other sites who have openly written that they have such, as well as knowing personally such people who have these complaints who I know would balk at knowing that in the future, people 'like them' could be aborted.

Peace

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 206

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 9:02:24 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Hello julia

My thought and point is that if you do carry such a gene I agree with you, carrying a child to term with this disease isn't a cop out, but getting pregnant when you know the risks involved and then saying that you are aborting a child because it has the potential to have that disease is the cop-out - instead of saying 'I am completely aware I am unable to function to the capacity that will give a child who may possibly have this disease quality of life.' The cop out is being unable to accept it was their personal responsibility of becoming pregnant in the first place.

It is not always that simple, however.

A person being a carrier of something takes a chance that the person who is impregnating them has the other half of a recessive allele. Most people are not that familiar with their genetic heritage.

Sometimes one only discovers a genetic or developmental anomaly by amniocentesis, at which point the decision becomes whether to bring a child with whatever to term, knowing it will lead a horrible and short life, die an expensive death, etc.

What it boils down to is whether we want a Government to take control of a woman (or couples) ability to determine what kind of life to bring into the world. I dont trust the Government enough to take a reasoned and sensible approach to the problem. What amuses me is that many conservative individuals generally rant about our needing less government control, but their party platform is that a woman's uterus (or a person's anus, or whatever) needs more government control.

The real intention of anti-abortion people is to remove a woman, pregnant with a child, from the decision making process surrounding her body and her life.

I have issues with that.

Sinergy

Edited to abort the Sinergy clone

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 5/22/2007 9:04:39 AM >

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 207

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 9:06:14 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There are many people that carry genetic time bombs like this, and when a pregnancy results, I do not fault them for having an abortion because of the likelihood that their genetic material will be passed down in the form of cystic fibrosis one day is pretty high. I would not carry a child to term with this disease... call me a cop out person. I think that people who carry this gene should not reproduce, but they have the freedom to do that.

I also wanted to add that taking the triple test for Trisomy (Downs) is not a positive or negative test - it simply says yes you may be more likely to give birth to a child with trisomy, not that the baby has it. It never tells you the level and is not 100% acurate. Trisomy is also not genetic.

Peace

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 208

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 9:09:50 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

A person being a carrier of something takes a chance that the person who is impregnating them has the other half of a recessive allele. Most people are not that familiar with their genetic heritage.

I know and understand that Sinergy, which is why I was very specific and not speaking about those who are unaware, but those people who know what they have a predisposition to.(Re: my quote below in response to julia)

quote:

but getting pregnant when you know the risks involved and then saying that you are aborting a child because it has the potential to have that disease is the cop-out

Peace

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 209

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 9:15:59 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

i believe that President Bush is a man of strong convictions, but i also believe that he does question his decisions and doesn't make them easily, because he understands the weight of those decisions and the potential consequences. History will judge whether the decisions he has had to make were the best ones, under the circumstances, but i firmly believe that he is a man of honest and good intentions and he has an incredible task in leading our nation during such a traumatic time.

Thank you for the lovely compliments.

The problem I have with this statement is that it is proven incorrect in so many of the malapropisms he says, so many of the underhanded actions he takes, etc.

If you read the history of his life the picture of a narcissistic individual who does whatever the hell he wants to do, utilizes his qualities (personableness, charisma) to do whatever he wants to get done, is always able to find somebody else to come in and fix the problems his decisions have caused, and has spent much of his life only looking out for Number One.

Perhaps he has changed, although I doubt it. According to him, he only found God after waking up in a pool of his own vomit from excessive drinking at his 43rd (I think) birthday party the previous night. He went around and told everybody that he had reformed his life and gotten right with G_d. Then was spotted numerous times after that lit up like a Christmas tree.

I pray as well, but my prayers are more to pray that he doesnt drag the rest of him down with him so far that we can never recover. Ever since he started his reign of error I cannot bring myself to watch the movie The Dead Zone. Jan 20, 2009 cannot come too soon for me.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 210

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 1:58:22 PM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

And yet, somehow, you find yourself "envious of Bush's ability to be unswerving and unwavering in his convictions." Ironic, isn't it?

i would never condemn anyone for finding God, whether it happens when he wakes up in a pool of his own vomit or face down in a dirty street gutter, or under any other conditions. Better late, than never.

As for the "reign of error", as you call it, if that is your true perspective of life right now & for the past several years, then i feel sorry for you. These have been some trying times, that's true, but not because of President Bush. He answered with force, just as he should have, when our country got attacked and, in my lifetime, there have been far darker, sadder & much more stressful times, due, in part, to personal tragedies, but also due to growing up when there were very scary scenes of mayhem, murder & rioting in our cities & our streets. i never want to live through anything like that again and i am very thankful that my little ones haven't had to see that in their lifetime.

For me, the past several years have been much more hopeful for me, in large part, due to the feeling of security that i have because of President Bush not backing down to terrorists. i'm glad that he has had the reigns since 9/11 and, in the upcoming election, i will be supporting the toughest S.O.B., hardline hawk that is running for the next term of President so that i can continue to feel safe & secure that the crazy-ass "Western Culture Haters and Murderers" won't have an easy time targeting the U.S.A. again, like they did in 2001.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 211

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 2:00:55 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

President Bush not backing down to terrorists.

You're kidding, Right?

Bush APPEASED BIN LADIN BY PULLING OUT OF SAUDI ARABIA.

Now, if you think a KNOWN TERRORIST APPEASER didn't "Back Down", I want some of what you're smoking!

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 212

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 2:18:09 PM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

President Bush not backing down to terrorists.

You're kidding, Right?

Bush APPEASED BIN LADIN BY PULLING OUT OF SAUDI ARABIA.

Now, if you think a KNOWN TERRORIST APPEASER didn't "Back Down", I want some of what you're smoking!

You're right, Bush is just a soft, little, pansy. i'm looking for the Biggest, Bad Ass, Motherf***er out there to be our next president. No more Mr. Nice Guys for pres!

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 213

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/22/2007 2:46:53 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

And yet, somehow, you find yourself "envious of Bush's ability to be unswerving and unwavering in his convictions." Ironic, isn't it?

I live with the irony of that.

It is just something I could never do. As I pointed out, I always wonder about any of my opinions "what if Im wrong?" and seek to understand the other side as best I can.

quote:

i would never condemn anyone for finding God, whether it happens when he wakes up in a pool of his own vomit or face down in a dirty street gutter, or under any other conditions. Better late, than never.

I am happy he found God.

Now if he would just find Christian ethics and morals the world would be a better place.

Sinergy

p.s. You stated he responded in force. We were attacked by Saudis resident in Afghanistan and he invaded Iraq. That would be like France invading Belgium because somebody from Austria (living in Germany) blew up a border crossing.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 214

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/23/2007 3:06:43 AM

calamitysandra

Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline

As most, I have very mixed feelings about this. Such an emotional charged subject.
On one hand, I feel that abortion is wrong (barred cases in which the life of the mother is in danger), on the other hand, I also feel, that the government does not have the right to a womans body.
So, I am firmly pro-choice, but also anti abortion.
Abortions after the 20th week, were a child could survive when beeing born, should only be allowed for severe medical reasons though.
Prior to that though, it should be the womans choice. She will have to deal with the choice.

_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 215

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/23/2007 2:11:58 PM

BoiJen

Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
He answered with force, just as he should have, when our country got attacked

he answered with force and lack of correct direction. where was his "force" when he received warning of the possibilities of the attack on the world trade centers...in his bakc swing on a golf course. He's a man who ahd no direction was "forced" to take action. The accuracy of that action has already proven to be erroneous. I mean wasn't it really inetresting to watch the "defense of America against terrorists" turn into "attack Iraq because of supposed WMD...and suddenly there is no evidence of those weapons. And now we're watching our boys ad girls get killed and shot at because no one in the administration has the brain power to figure out that we're wasting American lives.

Sorry I came from a military family I love the US with all my heart. The things the freedoms these boys and girls are fighting and dying for are for otehr people and some political ass wants to threaten and take away those very freedoms in our own country? This aint a and b here...this is a line of shit to cause fear and to use that fear to mainpulate and control the masses...funny Hitler did the same damned thing.

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 216

RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/25/2007 8:54:49 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

You're right, Bush is just a soft, little, pansy. i'm looking for the Biggest, Bad Ass, Motherf***er out there to be our next president. No more Mr. Nice Guys for pres!

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

First of all Bush is a pansy because he sends our kids off to fight when he was too much of a pussy to do so himself....

You confuse being a nice person and being kind with weakness. I had an exboyfriend that used to tell me people often confuse kindness with weakness, Bush is weak, he is not at all kind or nice. He is a bad ass mutha, with other people's blood though, not his own.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 217

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