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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 8:44:07 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

My question is, for all the pro-lifers out there trying to tell women what to do with their bodies is this....


"When did those women become YOUR SLAVES, Pro-Lifers? Last time *I* checked, they were Free. You ONLY get to tell YOUR PROPERTY what they can and can't do. Are you suggesting, Pro-Lifers, that those Women ARE NOT FREE? Are you suggesting they they DO NOT OWN THEIR OWN BODIES? Are you suggesting they DO NOT OWN THEIR CREATION? "

Pro-Life == Communist.





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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to soultoshare)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 8:57:23 AM   
LightHeartedMaam


Posts: 296
Joined: 5/12/2007
Status: offline 		My thought is this~  overturn Roe vs Wade and we are a breath away from Shira law.  Control a woman's body in this venue, what is to stop it there?  (an extreme thought, I know)

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 9:02:21 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Pro-Life == Communist.



Do you think so? I'd have put it down as more of a far right thing politically - you know, produce more soldiers for the front and all that? But I guess once one gets into the extremes of politics, its much the same as the extremes of religiosity - its all about controlling people and making sure they know it too, by whatever name or flavour.

E

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 9:11:09 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Communism is the Maximization of State Control.

What can be MORE controlling than a State which Controls what a Person does with their own self, or their creation?

There are a lot of people who CALL THEMSELVES "Conservatives", who are actually, when you examine their beliefs, and the END RESULTS of those beliefs are Socialists and Commies. Bush is one of them, and generally, so are his supporters. ( e.g. No Child Left Behind ).



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 9:20:26 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		I'm sort of split on this. I am agaist partial-birth abortions and late-term abortions. Just from a biological standpoint, if the baby has a hearbeat, can hear sounds outside the mother, and can move on its own, that's a baby in my book. Unless the mother's life is in danger or something, I think abortions that take place after 2 or 3 months is just stupid.
And the Supreme Court last month said that a ban on partial-birth abortion does not violate Roe vs Wade, and they upheld the ban.

What's funny to me is that feminists consider abortion to be the holy grail of feminism. It seems nothing else matters. Women have made very little progress in several other areas and the reason for this is because so many women and feminists devote so much of their enegies and resources towards fighting for abortion. Before 1970, women were reaching huge milestones and making progress across the board. After Roe vs Wade it seems feminism took a completely different route. And because of this, women have not advanced much at all since the 1980s.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 9:27:37 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Hey, From my POV there is no fight more important.

To be free, you need to be able to OWN PROPERTY, and specifically, the property of YOUR SELF. ( Remember when people had monetary value? It's like that. "Freedom" == "We are our own Master"

This DEFINES a Woman as FREE. If a Woman does NOT CONTROL HER BODY, she is the slave of the entity which does.

In this case, she is turned into a Chattel owned by the State. AND HER CREATION, Her Child is also a Chattel owned by the State.

Do you really want to live under such an oppressive Government?

I sure as hell don't, and I question the Intelligence and Competence of anyone who would CHOOSE to live under that oppression.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/18/2007 9:29:18 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 9:30:44 AM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		I think it is more of a fight to be able to choose. Being pro-choice doesn't always equate pro-abortion, sometimes it means just that.. for the ability to choose.
Yes I am pro-choice and strongly for available birth control.

quote:


I think abortions that take place after 2 or 3 months is just stupid
[quote/]

Sometimes it takes 2+ missed periods to realise the possibility of pregnancy.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 9:48:56 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		I am not following the main stream views about rights to abortion.
I do not support healthy women who have not been raped or got pregnant in an incestuous relations having abortions.
I personally got pregnant twice taking birth control precautions and gave those 2 babies up in private due to my firm belief that if you are healthy and you get pregnant you should not commit murder IMO just to save yourself 9 months inconvenience.
If you've ever heard of partial birth abortions that alone is enough to hope the anit-abortion laws get passed at least partially.
I mean to put a woman in labor up to 6 months pregnant, let her deliver the child to the point the head comes out and stick something in it's head sucking out it's brain to kill it is just barbaric and unacceptable IMO.
Hell wanted babies are born with less time in vitro and lived.
How can we murder our own children like that???

If you want the right to be in control of your body I say don't have sex until you're ready for the responsibilities it can cause.
Again I know my opinion's not popular here, but it is what it is.
I even march on DC every January 22nd I can to fight for changes in abortion laws.
suzanne

(in reply to pinksugarsub)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 9:52:38 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

\Just from a biological standpoint, if the baby has a hearbeat, can hear sounds outside the mother, and can move on its own, that's a baby in my book.

I have seen my babies heart beating inside me once 3 days after conception on a sonogram.
They all are living beings till thier hearts are stopped by abortions.

EDITED TO ADD
Funny most everyone would be offended if someone delivered a baby and threw it in a dumpster and it died. They'd think the mom was a horrid person, but one who'd go ripping a baby to pieces and murdering it in an abortion in their minds is OK as it's a right and choice to do so.
ITS A CHILD< NOT A CHOICE IMO

< Message edited by onestandingstill -- 5/18/2007 9:55:39 AM >

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 9:53:25 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		I'll give you guys something fresh to bounce around.

I had a lengthy process of divorcing my first husband... it took a few almost 4 yrs. In the mean time, life went on. I met my son's father during this time. The same year I got my divorce I found out I was pregnant. I was 29 at the time, this was my third child & I decided... this is it, number last & I talked to my OBGyn about having a tubal. It was then I found out that I would have to have my husband also agree to the process before it could be preformed. I explained to him that I was in the process of divorcing my "legal" husband & that the child was not his. He said he would still have to have a signed release from my husband before doing the procedure. He also told me that the law states that if my child was born prior to my divorce, my legal husband would be legally recognized as the child's father.

Thankfully I had my divorce prior to having my son, so I didn't have to mess with any documents of paternity & I told my soon to be husband that even though I know you will support my choice to have the tubal I refuse to marry you until after I have the procedure done.

My body, my choice

This whole matter is far too personal of a choice to involve politics or courts to decide for us. It should be left to the individuals, their families & their physicians. ( & their higher powers)

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MstrssPassion


(in reply to cjenny)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 9:55:44 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

\Just from a biological standpoint, if the baby has a hearbeat, can hear sounds outside the mother, and can move on its own, that's a baby in my book.

I have seen my babies heart beating inside me once 3 days after conception on a sonogram.
They all are living beings till thier hearts are stopped by abortions.


The embryos heart doesn't start beating until 18 to 20 days after conception

edited to add....

"Three days after fertilization a human egg has divided into eight 'totipotent' cells, four of which are visible here, surrounded by smaller cells..."
http://www.cbu.edu/~aross/hu-8cel.jpg

(above is a link to the image of what the paragraph in green is describing)


< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 5/18/2007 10:00:20 AM >

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MstrssPassion


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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:06:09 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

I am not following the main stream views about rights to abortion.
I do not support healthy women who have not been raped or got pregnant in an incestuous relations having abortions.
I personally got pregnant twice taking birth control precautions and gave those 2 babies up in private due to my firm belief that if you are healthy and you get pregnant you should not commit murder IMO just to save yourself 9 months inconvenience.
If you've ever heard of partial birth abortions that alone is enough to hope the anit-abortion laws get passed at least partially.
I mean to put a woman in labor up to 6 months pregnant, let her deliver the child to the point the head comes out and stick something in it's head sucking out it's brain to kill it is just barbaric and unacceptable IMO.
Hell wanted babies are born with less time in vitro and lived.
How can we murder our own children like that???

If you want the right to be in control of your body I say don't have sex until you're ready for the responsibilities it can cause.
Again I know my opinion's not popular here, but it is what it is.
I even march on DC every January 22nd I can to fight for changes in abortion laws.
suzanne


not sure it's available for all, but here's one this slave can report for the raped replicants--they actually have a procedure where they seed the vagina with the dope that induces labor after an ultrasound-aided very fine needle is inserted into their stomach, into the fetus's heart and a saline solution is briefly injected....a morphine supply is then IV'd in, with a little button for the patient to push, within 24 hours, if all goes according to procedure, the fetus is delivered---slightly less gorey than the procedure you outlined, but there you have it.
 
the medical opinion on that one says that it is less traumatizing to the wee one having the procedure, after everything else she has been through.

edited to add:  and according to the laws we currently have in place, that wee one's reproductive organs are HERS to decide what to do with, as soon as she is able to reproduce, regardless of her chronological age, EXCEPT consent (in certain cases) to having sex in the first place, with someone who is considered an adult.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 5/18/2007 10:10:16 AM >

(in reply to onestandingstill)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:09:47 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

The embryos heart doesn't start beating until 18 to 20 days after conception

edited to add....

"Three days after fertilization a human egg has divided into eight 'totipotent' cells, four of which are visible here, surrounded by smaller cells..."
http://www.cbu.edu/~aross/hu-8cel.jpg

(above is a link to the image of what the paragraph in green is describing)


OK maybe the sonogram specialist was wrong, but there was something in there beating.
Maybe it was the blood flow from me to the baby.
I don't know.
Thanks for sharing that because due to my experience I thought differently.

(in reply to MstrssPassion)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:20:20 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		The status and rights of a fetus procides one of the most glaring contradictions in American law. Case in point. John Peterson was charged with 2 counts of murder, that of his wife and her unborn child.  Proving that killing a fetus IS MURDER.
Yet had Laci had an abortion 24 hours prior to the murder that is legal?

What is the difference??

That being said my belief is that there is only 1 circumstance to justify abortion and that is to save the life of the mother.

(in reply to soultoshare)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:22:52 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Most of the arguments I see here talk about a Woman's right to control her body...That's the NOT the right's issue with Abortion.

Our issue is the fact that killing a fetus is MURDER. plain and simple.

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:26:14 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		His name is Scott Peterson.
I don't know if abortions in the 8th month are legal in California.


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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:26:31 AM   
RayvenGoddess


Posts: 77
Joined: 7/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
If a government can say "you can't have an abortion" it can just as easily say "you must have an abortion".

Don't think that would happen?

My mother-in-law studies Chinese society and she says it happens there all the time -- the wonderful "one child" policy after all. One of my professors studies Romania and she says that even under their very restrictive abortion laws decades ago the government often forced women to abort as well as carry to term.

It can be a slippery slope.


While I usually sit here and completely agree with Tammy Jo, I have to raise my hand here and correct something.  The one child policy is no longer a forced issue, and abortions in China are no longer forced upon the mothers by the government.  The government instead encourages families to have only one child by giving the family and the child for the rest is its life preferential treatment.  Best free health care, best schools, free college, big tax breaks, better jobs, promotions, if they are farmers they are given more land, and much more.  Unfortunately, forcing abortions on women has moved to the privet sector.  Families may force a woman to get an abortion or be kicked out in order to keep the government benefits rolling in.  A company that has all of it's women as mothers of one child can get the label of an "ideal company", which is beneficial in that the company gets tax breaks and more government contracts.  Many companies, eager to keep this ideal status, will order their female employees who already have one child to take pregnancy tests monthly.  If a woman turns up pregnant again, they will tell her to get an abortion or be fired.  Many women need these jobs for their family's well being and feel that they have no other choice.

< Message edited by RayvenGoddess -- 5/18/2007 10:33:33 AM >

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:28:53 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Sorry that is what I meant, I'm currently in Singapore so it is 2:30 AM, i'm not at 100% at the moment ;)

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:29:08 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

The status and rights of a fetus procides one of the most glaring contradictions in American law. Case in point. John Peterson was charged with 2 counts of murder, that of his wife and her unborn child. Proving that killing a fetus IS MURDER.
Yet had Laci had an abortion 24 hours prior to the murder that is legal?

What is the difference??


Same as that between being Assaulted and being Spanked.

CONSENT.

What Laci would have chosen to do with HER CREATION is HER CHOICE.

That's the essential point.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:30:26 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I only corrected you in case people wanted to google for more information regarding his case.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 40
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