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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:32:02 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Most of the arguments I see here talk about a Woman's right to control her body...That's the NOT the right's issue with Abortion.

Our issue is the fact that killing a fetus is MURDER. plain and simple.



Well, since MURDER is a LEGAL DEFINITION, it means what we AGREE IT MEANS.

e.g.: Capital Punishment is not, legally considered murder.

( Putting a sick dog down is not animal abuse, but I digress... )

A killing in Self Defense is not considered murder.

What a WOMAN chooses to do with HER OWN CREATION is not Murder. It's respecting HER PROPERTY RIGHTS.

*I* for one do not want ANY CHILD OR WOMAN to be the Slave of the State. And that's EXACTLY what telling her she can do with her self or her creation is. Enslavement.

#women-are-property-of-men is a great chatroom, but it's no basis for Law.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/18/2007 10:33:30 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:35:28 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		LIFE is LIFE. How can you compare someone's life to a spanking?

Abortion is MURDER.

Dr. Jack Kevorkian was covincted of murder by assisting in suicides, that was done with consent yet he was still found guilty because it is MURDER.

Murder is one of the cardinal sins. 
Abortion = murder

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:35:34 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I only corrected you in case people wanted to google for more information regarding his case.


Thanks. I, myself, think you have enough to hang a man with just one murder, so why bother muddying the waters is a question for the prosecutor in the Peterson case.





_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to KatyLied)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:36:43 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		a fetus is NOT property, it is a LIFE

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:38:39 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54
LIFE is LIFE. How can you compare someone's life to a spanking?


Life is cheap. Look a the 500,000 people killed since Bush invaded and occupied Iraq.

Have you SEEN some of the people getting pregnant, It ain't exactly SKILLED LABOR, is it?

quote:


Abortion is MURDER.


That's your ***OPINION***, however, of course, THE LAW DISAGREES. MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS DISAGREE.

And most importantly. WOMEN DISAGREE.

So, unless you want to reduce all woman to Merely Slaves, then you need to RESPECT THEIR PERSONAL SOVEREIGNTY.

It's their CHILD. It's their CREATION. It's THEIR PROPERTY.

Why do you hate PROPERTY RIGHTS, FREEDOM, and LIBERTY so much?



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/18/2007 10:40:19 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:40:53 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

a fetus is NOT property, it is a LIFE


So is a Chicken or Horse, and THEY ARE PROPERTY, aren't they?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:45:26 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		Hey I got a question....

Why is it that if you murder a woman who is pregnant, society and the law wants to charge the killer with two counts of homicide.
Why is the fetus protected only in certain circumstances? It seems to conflict the 14th amendment that states that all laws must be enforced equally.

I think society is trying to have it both ways. And that's unconstitutional in my opinion. A fetus is either protected or not...make up your mind.

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 10:57:51 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		again you are comparing a HUMAN life to the life of an animal.

And what about the father, doesnt he have a right to say whether his child is born or not?

and consent, is the fetus asked whether it wants to live or die?  of course not.  So there is no consent.

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:00:59 AM   
RayvenGoddess


Posts: 77
Joined: 7/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Hey I got a question....

Why is it that if you murder a woman who is pregnant, society and the law wants to charge the killer with two counts of homicide.
Why is the fetus protected only in certain circumstances? It seems to conflict the 14th amendment that states that all laws must be enforced equally.

I think society is trying to have it both ways. And that's unconstitutional in my opinion. A fetus is either protected or not...make up your mind.


Legally, in many states the DA cannot charge a murderer with double homicide because they have killed a pregnant woman.  If they did, it would open up a whole can of worms like what we are all discussing here about when is a fetus a person and the legality of abortion.  In some states however there is a precedent for charging the murderer with an unlawful abortion if the motive for murder was specifically to kill the unborn child.  I'm not a law student but I believe that this is correct from what I have been old by my friends who are law students.

< Message edited by RayvenGoddess -- 5/18/2007 11:05:08 AM >

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:03:04 AM   
domiguy


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Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

a fetus is NOT property, it is a LIFE


So who is going to prosecute the woman who loses her "baby" during the course of her pregnancy....What if she drank, did drugs or smoked and it was found that those could be the cause for the loss?

What if she excercised against doctors orders?...Or did not remain on bed rest as prescribed?

< Message edited by domiguy -- 5/18/2007 11:04:24 AM >

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:04:22 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

again you are comparing a HUMAN life to the life of an animal.

And what about the father, doesnt he have a right to say whether his child is born or not?

and consent, is the fetus asked whether it wants to live or die?  of course not.  So there is no consent.


what about the consent of the raped?  they don't consent to being impregnated...too bad for them, then, we'll just let the rapist decide?  you can't be serious...

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:04:58 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Hey I got a question....

Why is it that if you murder a woman who is pregnant, society and the law wants to charge the killer with two counts of homicide.
Why is the fetus protected only in certain circumstances? It seems to conflict the 14th amendment that states that all laws must be enforced equally.

I think society is trying to have it both ways. And that's unconstitutional in my opinion. A fetus is either protected or not...make up your mind.


Not Society. A LA County DA who wants to make a big splash.

I said before, they had enough to hang him with just Laci's murder. The rest was just Grandstanding For The Audience.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:10:30 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

again you are comparing a HUMAN life to the life of an animal.


Aren't human beings Animals.

They ain't Minerals, nor Veggies.

Yup Human Beings are Specie Hominid.

The words fetus, property, and life are very broadly applicable, aren't they?

quote:


And what about the father, doesnt he have a right to say whether his child is born or not?


That's for him, as a sperm donor to negotiate with the fetus' Creator. THE MOTHER.

Do you ask someone for anything when they give you a cold? That's about the same level of intimacy REQUIRED to impregnate a woman.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:10:31 AM   
CrimsonMoan


Posts: 2652
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Portland, Me via Las Vegas Nv
Status: offline 		Actually cyberdude that add on varies from state to state and invovles viable fetuses only. I belive the 3month on mark is when murdering a pregnant woman will land you two counts instead of one. I normally stay out of the abortion debate because the waters get muddy but hey its a slow day in portland i will throw in my two cents.

Ok me personall I went to catholic school so at one point I WAS pro-life. Not becuase I choose to be but that was how they taught us. Hell they had us make bumper stickers. Once I started attending public school and getting unbiased opinions on things I became pro choice. I amlike this accidents happen and there have been cases of women gettign pregnant despite birth control. Depsite what a prvious poster said I believe you are using B.C. for a reason and if something like that were to happen you have every right to proceed and have an abortion.

As for the father's having a say in things, more muddy water, a woman shouldn't have to stay pregnant because her partner wants to be a fatehr to the child and he has no right to ask her and expect a positive answer.  More power to you guys that are willing to be single father, but you must take into account the stress even the healthiest pregnancy can place on the female body. I am a mother and have been pregnant twice so i know what i am talking about.

Anyways back to the main subject a bunch of old rich MEN have no business deciding what WOMEN do with their bodies. Just about every arguement against abortion is fueled by religion. Not all of share the same religious views or are even religious to begin with. Leave it to ezach individual to make the CHOICE of abortion.

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:10:51 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		FB it might have been, but the fact remains that he did it and it was legal.

As for a woman who drank etc... we do have a crime called negligent homicide and that woman should be tried and convicted

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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:14:53 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
Who gets to determine what is done with property? THE OWNER.



ARE WOMEN THE PROPERTY OF THE STATE? Yes or No?

ARE WOMEN THE PROPERTY OF THEIR SELVES? Yes or No?

ARE CHILDREN THE PROPERTY OF THEIR MOTHERS OR THE STATE?


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/18/2007 11:15:34 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:15:02 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		In California, the law defines murder as the unlawful killing of a
human being or a fetus with malice aforethought. The unborn child must have
passed the embryonic stage, roughly between 6 and 8 weeks. Also, anyone
convicted of more than one first- or second-degree murder is eligible for special
circumstances, which can include the death penalty.

from:
http://www.findlaci2003.us/double-homicide.html


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“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
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(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:15:20 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		As for the rape issue, I have 3 friends who were born from a rape, in the end both the children and the mothers were glad they were carried to term, because a child is a child, and life if life 

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:16:43 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Again Women are not property, and fetuses are not property.

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:16:56 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

As for the rape issue, I have 3 friends who were born from a rape, in the end both the children and the mothers were glad they were carried to term, because a child is a child, and life if life


And THE GOVERNMENT telling ANYONE what they must do is SLAVERY.

Your friend MADE THEIR CHOICES. Good for them. WHY DENY THAT CONTROL OVER THEIR SELVES TO ANY OTHER WOMAN?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 60
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