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RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 5:29:57 PM   
HutchGarahl


Posts: 562
Joined: 1/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

I don't care how anyone looks at it.......



Considering the rest of the post, I find this statement difficult to believe.

Sinergy


Sinergy, your one of the few people who have earned my respect. But could you please explain this to me...i'm not sure what you meant.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 5:38:22 PM   
HutchGarahl


Posts: 562
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousexplorer

""WHOA....BACK OFF BUB! Not once did I call anyone here a murderer. I said abortion is murder "
Which means you would have to consider the mother and medical staff murderers.
In my opinion...yes, and I wouldn't hesitate to say such either..be it someone here or not. But, I didn't see anyone here claim to have had an abortion, I didn't read every post. "

But there is a chance at least one person in an abotion thread has been involved in an abortion, either as the woman, man or medical staff. So it is likely you called at least one person here a murderer.

"Ok...I did go back and read every post.........There are two who say they did have an abortion....Sorry ladies....if you decided to dislike me now for my opinion...that's your decision...but I stand by my opinion. "

So you were wrong, you called at least two people murderers. And that's only the ones you are sure of. While you are free to have opinions, one has to wonder if you've given those opinions as much thought as your claim you didn't call anyone here a murderer?


Well, ya got me on that one. Inadvertantly..I guess I did. But I stand on my opinion. I'm sorry the ladies made that choice, for whatever reason....hopefully though not out of the fact they just didn't want to carry. As I stated...if the womans life is in danger, then I might could see that choice as an option. If my opinion causes these ladies to choose to never speak to me again, it's their choice. I myself would not stop speaking to another for their opinion...but i'm not everyone else either.

One of the ladies, I don't really know the name...the other I have come to respect her as she seems to be very caring of others and makes a lot of sense in her posts.

(in reply to curiousexplorer)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 5:51:18 PM   
HutchGarahl


Posts: 562
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
Yanno Hutch, i stand by my opinion(s) on this thread just as You stand by Yours.  i daresay most P/pl who replied stand by T/their opinions.  Standing by O/one's opinion is a common trait.
 
I've always felt everyone has a right to their opinion. We all have reasons behind our opinions. That doesn't make anyone less of a person to me though.

 
As for disliking You, i knew when i posted the Op there would be disagreement.  i dun know You well enough to say whether i dislike You or not; i find You to be a bit defensive  and (of course) wrong-headed on some issues, but hey, those are minor complaints. 
 
When it comes to something like abortion, yes...I am very much defensive. The unborn can't speak for themselves. I admit at times, I can be very bullheaded in my opinions as well. And i'll admit, in some issues, I can be wrong....specially if I don't fully understand them and just going by what I know.
 
For all i know Yr one helluva Guy, fun at parties, smart as a whip, etc.  And in point of fact, some of the Men who replied (farglebargle comes to mind) hold a different opinion than You do, while some of the "Ladies" agree with You.
 
Thanks luv....i've been called those before. But I think I should inform you...while I have no problem with someone calling me a guy...I was born female, in case ya didn't know.  You can still call me guy though.

 
i have also read this thread and i failed to note where any particular member said S/she had had an abortion H/herself.  However if this did happen, the W/women revealed an extremely personal and probably very painful point in T/their lives for the sake of advancing the debate.  Generally such P/pl get thanked for T/their disclosures.
 
Very true...and i'm sure it wasn't easy for them to bring this up. As much as I am against abortion and feel it's murder....I do feel for the women who make this kind of a choice. It's not an easy decision to make by no means.


I will say this .....  While I do have my opinion....it's not my place to punish anyone for what they decide....when it's time for them to meet their maker, only then will it be decided wether what they chose to do was actually the right thing and only then will they meet with punishment for their decision or be met with open arms.

(in reply to pinksugarsub)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 5:56:38 PM   
simplyangelic1


Posts: 186
Joined: 6/14/2006
Status: offline 		Pro lifers we get it.  We know all about your arguments that life begins at conceptions yadda yadda yadda.  You have spent the last 30 plus years trying to beat us over the head with your facts.  But consider this.  Do you honestly want someone else telling you what you can do with your own body?  That you can't have this procedure that might save your life, or improve the quality of it.  How about you can't have children, if you wanted them, because you aren't genetically perfect.  How far do you think we are from days like that?  Not as far as you might think once you cross that line in the first place.  Once you say women can't have abortions, it makes it easier to say the elderly and infirm can't get treatment cause "they are gonna die soon anyway"   Think about it.  Are you really ready to face that kind of reality?

I am pro choice.  I will defend to my dying breath a woman's right to make whatever choice is best for her life.  I've never had an abortion but I'm damn glad that I have the choice available to me and don't have to resort to back alley abortions or the wire hanger. 

< Message edited by simplyangelic1 -- 5/18/2007 5:58:49 PM >

(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 6:05:37 PM   
HutchGarahl


Posts: 562
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: simplyangelic1

Pro lifers we get it.  We know all about your arguments that life begins at conceptions yadda yadda yadda.  You have spent the last 30 plus years trying to beat us over the head with your facts.  But consider this.  Do you honestly want someone else telling you what you can do with your own body?  That you can't have this procedure that might save your life, or improve the quality of it.  How about you can't have children, if you wanted them, because you aren't genetically perfect.  How far do you think we are from days like that?  Not as far as you might think once you cross that line in the first place.  Once you say women can't have abortions, it makes it easier to say the elderly and infirm can't get treatment cause "they are gonna die soon anyway"   Think about it.  Are you really ready to face that kind of reality?

Don't get me wrong...I do understand where you're coming from...I guess I just care too much for the child. And yes...I can actually see those days coming...as to wether i'm ready to face it or not...I honestly couldn't say. Hopefully I won't live long enough to see it happen.

I am pro choice.  I will defend to my dying breath a woman's right to make whatever choice is best for her life.  I've never had an abortion but I'm damn glad that I have the choice available to me and don't have to resort to back alley abortions or the wire hanger. 

Ok, this may sound somewhat wierd and maybe contradictory...but I do agree with you on this point. If a woman is going to have an abortion, I would much rather her go to a clinic or hospital as opposed to a back alley.

edited to fix spelling.

< Message edited by HutchGarahl -- 5/18/2007 6:06:48 PM >

(in reply to simplyangelic1)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 7:46:10 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousexplorer

"WHOA....BACK OFF BUB! Not once did I call anyone here a murderer. I said abortion is murder "

Which means you would have to consider the mother and medical staff murderers.

In my opinion...yes, and I wouldn't hesitate to say such either..be it someone here or not. But, I didn't see anyone here claim to have had an abortion, I didn't read every post.

If abortion is murder, then those involved are murderers. If you don't want to call women and medical staff murderers, don't call what they do murder. It's a pretty simple concept.






"MURDER" is a LEGAL TERM, and it does NOT mean "Abortion".

If KILLING is never legally justified, explain the invasion and occupation of Iraq.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 8:09:39 PM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

2. i think every female should have the option of getting a safe, sane, and cheap abortion.
 
how is cheap safe and sane?
how sane and safe is cheap?
 

3. i think minor females should be able to get abortions just as easily as older females, without consent of their parents or a judge.

Minors?   Like 12 and 13?  Ever worked at a Booth Hospital (Salvation Army for unwed mothers) and see the lilone's who have never had a period, not even realize they were pregnant but had something going on in them  (not fully realizing) becasue their father, uncle, brother or other "safe and sane" man raped them....and then they should have the right to choose to get an abortion, a cheap one at that; without the consent of an adult ??
Who gave that adult consent to rape and defile a wee lilone who has so many rights?  I know, take away adult's rights !

4.  The full panoply of contraceptives and sex ed should be at least made available to minor females and older females on a sliding scale fee schdeule, without the need for a parent's consent.

what comes first the right to have an abortion at the age of 13 or the right to pay for sex education at the age of 13 without proper wages  ?
Do they ask their parent for extra allowance so that they can go get sex education or do they wait till they need a cheap abortion at age 14 cause they failed to pay for their sex education at age 13 cause it was too expensive?



And I still have NOT weighed in with my opinion on womens rights and abortion.

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.


(in reply to pinksugarsub)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 8:14:06 PM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl


I will say this .....  While I do have my opinion....it's not my place to punish anyone for what they decide....when it's time for them to meet their maker, only then will it be decided wether what they chose to do was actually the right thing and only then will they meet with punishment for their decision or be met with open arms.


Hutch,
Very well stated.... but this goes for every area of our lives not just this issue.

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.


(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 8:34:43 PM   
HutchGarahl


Posts: 562
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shyinini

quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl


I will say this .....  While I do have my opinion....it's not my place to punish anyone for what they decide....when it's time for them to meet their maker, only then will it be decided wether what they chose to do was actually the right thing and only then will they meet with punishment for their decision or be met with open arms.


Hutch,
Very well stated.... but this goes for every area of our lives not just this issue.


Thanks luv....and yes, I realize that....but this was the issue at hand.

(in reply to shyinini)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/18/2007 11:06:42 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

My entire problem with the whole debate over abortion is the unwillingness on both sides for compromise.  I have never had any moral or ethical problem with a woman having an abortion in the first-trimester.  I do have a major problem with late-term abortions.  I do not want women risking their lives in back alley abortion clincs, so I don't want it outlawed completely.  But I consider aborting a fetus that could survive outside of the womb to be infanticide.  So why is it that groups like Planned Parenthood scream that abortion rights are being eroded away by a ban on late-term abortions? 

The triumph of the anti abortion propogandists.

Just to fully inform you and anyone else under this misapprehension, The SCOTUS in Roe vs. Wade set the limit on when abortion could be performed to prior to theviability of the fetus. IOW states have always been able to and every state has laws on the books restricting abortions when the fetus would be able to live outside the mother.

Very very few third trimester abortions occur and they pretty much exclusively occur to protect the life or health of the mother or due to the fetus having lethal abnormalities.

What the anti abortion movement started calling "partial birth abortion" isn't a real medical procedure it is poorly worded and open to wide interpretation. The procedure most often associated with the term is intact dilation and extraction. Which is a rarely done late term technique which is most often done when a fetus with lethal hydrocephalus is to be aborted. With an expanded skull far too large for it to be removed through the cervix and the physician not wanting to have the already likely traumatized woman have to undergo the major surgery of a C-section they'll do a ID&E. If various studies are to be believed ID&E makes up far less 1/4 of 1 percent of the abortions in the US before the passage of the ban. However the variosu state's legislation is so broadly worded that it could be interpreted to ban the quite standard second trimester procedure of Dilation & Extraction in which some part of the nonviable fetus may enter the vaginal canal before the abortion is completed. D&E is a quite basic part of the abortion providers tool kit and at the very least should be legal so that women who miscarry in the second trimester can have the procedure to avoid life threatening infections.

IOW Planned Parenthood is not advocating for any woman to have the right to terminate a pregnancy after the fetus is viable. What is being advocated is that women who discover their fetus has a lethal condition such as extreme hydrocephalus should be able to receive an abortion less traumatic than a C section.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 5/18/2007 11:09:24 PM >

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/19/2007 1:22:46 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

I don't care how anyone looks at it.......



Considering the rest of the post, I find this statement difficult to believe.

Sinergy


Sinergy, your one of the few people who have earned my respect. But could you please explain this to me...i'm not sure what you meant.


Most of your post was an attack at people who support what you consider anathema.  My comment was that the statement "I dont care what other people think" was not supported by the rest of your post.  You seem to care a great deal what other people think.  Nothing wrong with caring, but I suggest you dont preface your comments with "I dont care."

I told my children that while I support a woman's right to choose, I abhor waste.  I said if they came to me and told me they were expecting an unwanted child that I would support whatever they chose to do 100%.  Abortion?  I will drive them to and pay for the most competent doctor to perform the procedure.  Keep the child.  Live with me and raise the kid in a happy and loving home.  Or live somewhere else and I am there to make sure things work out.  The point I am trying to make is that her decision to bear a child is her decision, not mine.  The decision to have children is a decision I made.  They have my undying support and love and all that other parental twaddle until the day I leave this place.  This is unconditional, they never signed a contract to love and support me.  I believe I signed a contract to love and support them regardless when I made the decision to have children.

I will not ever support a law designed to take my child's decision making power away from her.  I have spent most of her life telling people "dude(ette), dont even bother going up against that one.  You wont win, and you will end up looking stupid."  I have two children, one a son, and while I support him the way I support her, I do understand that the primary burden will be on the mother of his child, not on my son.

What is amusing is that my daughter and I never fight about anything.

The problem I have with the late term abortion law is that the way it is written, if a woman slips on ice and her fetus aborts past the point where it is considered a viable life, that woman could be brought up on manslaughter charges.  That is just idiotic in my opinion.  The comment "yeah, but it would never happen" is equally idiotic.  A rule I have learned in spades as a customer support engineer is to never attempt to outsmart an idiot.

My general approach to things is that I tend to not think my opinion about their life is not overly relevant.  I dont think my opinion about their behavior is relevant since I am not necessarily willing to pay to support it.

I support legalization of many drugs because I hate paying to incarcerate stoner dudes.  What the hell do I care of somebody wants to relate to barnacles under the pier after doing bong loads.

I am opposed to anti-abortion laws, in general, because SOMEBODY has to pay for the kids born in horrible situations.  I have yet to see many anti-abortionists adopting children born in horrible poverty and hell.

I am opposed to shooting Iraqis because I am forced to pay for Anencephalyboy's imperial hubris.

I hope this clarifies my response.

Enjoy your evening

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/19/2007 7:20:39 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I will weigh in even though no one really cares what my opinion is on this subject because they have all made up their minds....

First of all there are incongruities among the pro-life crowd that really trouble me....

The first one is this:

In the case of rape it is somehow ok to murder the "baby". If you really believe that it is murder, then it is murder no matter how that "life" came to be... it makes no sense to put a value judgment (yours mind you) about which life is of value and which isn't.. what ya'll that hold this position really think that children are some punishment for having consensual sex, and if you did not consent that means that you should not have to have that punishment exacted against you... babies are not punishments.

I am pro choice. I do not want the government in my pussy, or telling my doctor what to do. I do not think that a fetus/embryo is a sentient life until it can live without the mother, and even then if the mother's life is in danger her life supercedes that of the child if she wants that. I have no qualifiers to this position, I do not need to rationalize how it is ok to murder children of rape (which those that holdthe position abortion is murder but take the position that it is ok in the case of rape or incest are playing God in my opinion).

For those who are prolife because you think your bible tells you so, here are some choice bible passages that show clearly where the old testement hebrew god comes down on this matter


quote:



{Exodus 21: 22-25}    reads:        " When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, ( i.e. an 'involuntary abortion') and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman's husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. 
    If any harm follows (to the human being involved here), then you shall give life for life (i.e.  death penalty), eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

 
 

quote:


The Hebrew Bible in English
according to the JPS 1917 edition
 "And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow, he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine . But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life. . ."


http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/abortion-1.html
The Bible also explicitly states several times that the breath of life is when life begins....
 
Not that all of you are pro life because you are Christian, but those of you who are, the Bible can be interpreted more than one way on the matter
 

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 5/19/2007 7:21:20 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to pinksugarsub)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/19/2007 7:54:44 AM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline 		I am considering a job change....  I looked into Planned Parenthood.
As I was reflecting on that choice and if I should even explore it...
KNOWING my own views on this issue ..... I wondered, what sort of difference, if any, could I possibly make in the lives of anyone involved on either side of this issue.

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/19/2007 8:00:51 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Another pro-choice here.  The government has no business telling women what to do with their reproduction.  And that works both ways, telling them to limit their reproduction or to reproduce more.  I think it's crazy that people seem to think it's okay for the government to step in in any form on this issue.

quote:

I am pro choice. I do not want the government in my pussy, or telling my doctor what to do.


^
This pretty much sumarizes how I feel about the issue.

< Message edited by KatyLied -- 5/19/2007 8:01:13 AM >

_____________________________

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- Albert Einstein

(in reply to shyinini)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/19/2007 8:03:27 AM   
simplyangelic1


Posts: 186
Joined: 6/14/2006
Status: offline 		I'm gonna have to bookmark those for the next time someone tries to ram Luke 1 39-40  as proof that life begins at conception. 

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/19/2007 8:10:10 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: simplyangelic1

I'm gonna have to bookmark those for the next time someone tries to ram Luke 1 39-40  as proof that life begins at conception. 



If you type in Breath of Life into an online concordance you will find out how life is defined in the Bible also...I have actually read this book cover to cover, and even I was able to connect the dots on the abortion question in my 20s. Here is the thing. In studying small scale cultures (small communities of people, such has native American groups, many have ways to perform abortions through medicinal means and others. If God or the ancient Hebrews had a problem with doing this, they should have put the penalty in the Bible, because I am absolutely positive that abortion was used as family planning, just like condoms were used. There is NOTHING that states aborting a pregnancy is against the rules, and these people had a law for EVERYTHING.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to simplyangelic1)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/19/2007 8:13:28 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		"There is NOTHING that states aborting a pregnancy is against the rules, and these people had a law for EVERYTHING. "

"these people"???

:)

As one of "those people", let me offer that Old Testament G-d is NOTHING like that wimpy New Testament one.

If Old Testament G-d had a problem with ANYTHING, you KNOW there would be much smiting.

After all, look what happened to Lot's wife? ALL SHE DID WAS TURN AROUND and *BANG* Pillar of Salt time....



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/19/2007 8:41:52 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

"these people"???


Ancient Hebrews, whom I find very cool from a cultural perspective....I was not being derogatory

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/19/2007 8:54:06 AM   
soultoshare


Posts: 519
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		haven't read the rest of the postings yet, but it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to "hear" or "see" a baby's heartbeat in any situation three days after conception....it is still nothing more than splitting, reproducing cells, I believe it's called a gamete or zygote....don't remember my biology that well, however, if your heard a heartbeat on a sonogram, it was your own. 

(in reply to onestandingstill)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Reproductive Rights - 5/19/2007 9:25:04 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

"these people"???


Ancient Hebrews, whom I find very cool from a cultural perspective....I was not being derogatory


I *KNOW*, hence the smiley.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 120
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