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RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/21/2007 6:47:25 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
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Status: offline 		I'd always thought James Buchanan (who did nothing when half the nation seceded) got the dubious honor of being the worst President in U.S. history. But then, that was before I came to the hard realization that the Civil War was probably a huge mistake.


< Message edited by dcnovice -- 5/21/2007 6:48:12 PM >

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RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/21/2007 7:28:47 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I'd always thought James Buchanan (who did nothing when half the nation seceded) got the dubious honor of being the worst President in U.S. history. But then, that was before I came to the hard realization that the Civil War was probably a huge mistake.



George W. Bush beats out Buchanan's inability to do anything about the growing desire of the southern states to secede from the United States.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/21/2007 8:14:43 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Exactly what authority is delegated in the Constitution to prevent secession ?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/21/2007 8:20:43 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Exactly what authority is delegated in the Constitution to prevent secession ?


Exactly.

Sinergy

p.s.  My point was that Buchanan failed to do anything to try to fix the growing disconnect between the states.  He took the "Im going to stick the next guy with the problem" approach to governing.  Sorta like every president from LBJ until Nixon who didnt want to be the first president to lose a war.


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/21/2007 9:07:12 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I always find it amusing how Republicans distort history.  Carter was a one term president after how many years of Republicans but somehow the inflation caused the the Vietnam war (something we will soon be facing) was Carter's fault, but Bush only is responsible for the good things.

Most of Bush's "new" energy policies (actually just hot air, they aren't going to fund or implement them) were stolen from a Carter's plan that was actually in place and working till Raygun dismantled it.  I mean why would America want to become energy independent, what a stupid idea.

Carter is somehow responsible for not "preventing" Iran from having a revolution but we invade a smaller Arab country and turn it from bad into a complete shithole and that is a "good" thing.  Carter had to worry about the Soviets upon who's border Iran shares and Bush hasn't worried about anything including reality. 

Carter didn't show backbone for not invading Iran but Raygun allows the Marines to be butchered in Lebanon because we didn't arm them and tucks tail and runs and gets a free ride.

Raygun's crew does business with Iran trading arms to them and taking the profits and giving them to the drug running contras who invent crack cocain.

Bush installs Noreiga.  Rummy gives chemical weapons to Saddam.

Carter cancelled the idiotic B1, funds the stealth program and tried to prevent the export of US frontline fighters.  The B1 wasn't even considered for use in GW1 even though it cost more than gold and the F20 Tigershark was a kick ass airplane.

Carter wanted to use 747s with rotary launchers for cruise missiles, a fucking brilliant idea.  Raygun wanted to ride horses and Bush to cut brush, perfect for their mental abilities.

Carter practices what he preaches and Bush can't even practice but preaches does he.

How many scandals under Carter?    Carter is welcome worldwide and the only place Bush might be welcomed is the Bin Laudin's estate in Saudi Arabia who provided how many of the  hi-jackers?

Sorry, Carter is by far one of our better presidents and Bush is quite simply one of the worst.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/21/2007 10:12:18 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		This is about as close to the answer as it gets
14th Amendment
Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Exactly what authority is delegated in the Constitution to prevent secession ?


_____________________________

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RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/21/2007 11:10:31 PM   
Cuckme4Life


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From: MentallyDeranged,Tn.
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quote:


How many scandals under Carter?    Carter is welcome worldwide and the only place Bush might be welcomed is the Bin Laudin's estate in Saudi Arabia who provided how many of the  hi-jackers?

Sorry, Carter is by far one of our better presidents and Bush is quite simply one of the worst.


How many scandals ?? ( lets include blunders and position changes too)

1) Carter paid a visit to see the Shah in 1979. Then heaped kudos on the Shah by saying he was practicing “progressive administration” which was that the Shah was ordering his own military to gun down thousands of unarmed demonstrators.

2) Lest we forget the "General Services Administration" scandal during the Carter administration? No? History buried this or do we have a selective memory? Renting shitty buildings for fed government usage instead of building newer ones at a cheaper price? Yep!! See his old buddy Laszlo Tauber about that taxpayer screwing!!! Oh thats right, the old rich fart died!!

3) Carters administration was providing weaponry to the El Salvadoran "Junta", they were murdering unionists and peasant farmers  

4) Soviet military activity in Cuba,  Horn of Africa, Afghanistan and other places.

5) Handed over the Panama Canal to the Panamanians although over 75% of the US population was against doing so.

6) Turned his back on our defense treaty with  Taiwan.

7) Signed SALT II treaty with the Soviets, only to look like a "Neville Chamberlain type" fool when they attacked Afghanistan. His answer to the invasion? Deny Olympic athletes a chance to compete in Moscow!! OHHHH that taught them a hard lesson now didnt it???   Did he have a "WAHHWAHH!!! I`ll take my ball and go home" mentality????

8)  Inflation over 15%

9)  Interest rates at 20%

10)   Carter appointed an ambassador to the UN named Andrew Young, who later admitted to secret meetings with the Palestine Liberation Organization, , a definite no-no breaking US policy. He resigned in shame.

11) Bert Lance, the OMB director for Carter,  was forced to resigned when he was caught and charged with unethical conduct as a banker

12) Carter`s brother, Billy Carter was making business deals with the Libyans. A known American enemy nation.

I can be here for days upon days pointing out scandals, blunders, and idiocies of Carters.  THE WORSE president in American history, bar none.


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RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 4:59:29 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

This is about as close to the answer as it gets
14th Amendment
Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Exactly what authority is delegated in the Constitution to prevent secession ?



You *DO* realize that the 14th Amendment WAS NOT EVEN PROPOSED in 1861, therefore is not applicable to this discussion.

And SECESSION is NOT INSURRECTION OR REBELLION. It's *exactly* the same as leaving any club you have joined.

You *DO* have a right to LEAVE AN ORGANIZATION YOU JOIN, don't you?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 5:04:25 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuckme4Life



quote:


7) Signed SALT II treaty with the Soviets, only to look like a "Neville Chamberlain type" fool when they attacked Afghanistan. His answer to the invasion? Deny Olympic athletes a chance to compete in Moscow!! OHHHH that taught them a hard lesson now didnt it??? Did he have a "WAHHWAHH!!! I`ll take my ball and go home" mentality????


As opposed to training and arming Osama Bin Ladin?

That never stops amusing me, the way the Reagan/Bush/BIN-LADIN apologists conveniently forget that they TRAINED the 9/11 attackers.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 5:20:51 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
As opposed to training and arming Osama Bin Ladin?

That never stops amusing me, the way the Reagan/Bush/BIN-LADIN apologists conveniently forget that they TRAINED the 9/11 attackers.


Thanks for that one, farglebargle, you've got me rolling around on the floor, laughing my ass off. You're hysterical sometimes... the lies that you try to push on these boards are just funnier than hell!!!! The 9/11 hijackers would have been very old men if it had been Ronald Reagan who trained them, and they weren't. They were yound men, and it so happens that they trained in Florida under Billary Clintoon!

What Reagan/Bush did in Afghanistan was help defeat the Soviet Union once and for all, and it worked - the Soviet Un ion collapsed shortly after that. There was a power vacuum in Afghanistan when the Soviets were forced to withdraw, but to blame that on Reagan would be mindless and ignorant

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(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 5:32:53 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Exactly what authority is delegated in the Constitution to prevent secession ?


Nothing in the Constitution ****PROVIDES FOR**** secession, therefore secession is ****ILLEGAL****

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 5:59:11 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Cuck,

Thanks for proving my point, I won't bother to point out why because you are exactly the sort I am speaking of.  It would be like trying to explain sex to a two year old.  No matter what you say they will have a tantrum.

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 6:25:15 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Sinergy,
Here are questions and points you haven't address. Should be easy for someone who admires him so much. Please try not to use the same ignorance as you did in saying that President Carter was working with a Republican majority in the Senate and House.

  • Who would invest in the USA economic model in the face of the USA not being able to stand up to 'students' or a newly formed, non-militarily organized government?
  • President Carter was just "there" for the "denouement"? His lack of action during it is a direct cause of it and what has occurred subsequently in the region and throughout the world. To be clear on the question part, why is this incorrect?
  • Why do you justify his surrender of US sovereignty?
  • Why couldn't he, as the commander and chief, organize a better plan to rescue the hostages?
  • Why not blame him for the rise of radical Islam, since he turned a country over to them in Iran?
  • How could any US ally trust him based upon the example of Iran?


President Carter was in charge. He had the power, authority, and a Congress made up of his own party. He had no reason to be so impotent. He is one of the main reasons there is a hole where the towers used to be in NYC.

If you want to take the question to current events. Why is he still so weak that he doesn't stand behind his own remarks and instead tries to spin them. Is it because he wants everyone to remember him as the weak, lacking backbone, inconsistent, insecure, person as he was during his administration that you admire so?

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 6:30:48 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
As opposed to training and arming Osama Bin Ladin?

That never stops amusing me, the way the Reagan/Bush/BIN-LADIN apologists conveniently forget that they TRAINED the 9/11 attackers.


Thanks for that one, farglebargle, you've got me rolling around on the floor, laughing my ass off. You're hysterical sometimes... the lies that you try to push on these boards are just funnier than hell!!!! The 9/11 hijackers would have been very old men if it had been Ronald Reagan who trained them, and they weren't. They were yound men, and it so happens that they trained in Florida under Billary Clintoon!

What Reagan/Bush did in Afghanistan was help defeat the Soviet Union once and for all, and it worked - the Soviet Un ion collapsed shortly after that. There was a power vacuum in Afghanistan when the Soviets were forced to withdraw, but to blame that on Reagan would be mindless and ignorant



I guess the 9/11 Commissions discussion of the Al Quaida Blowback was another thing that just passed you by.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 6:31:52 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Exactly what authority is delegated in the Constitution to prevent secession ?


Nothing in the Constitution ****PROVIDES FOR**** secession, therefore secession is ****ILLEGAL****


Go read the 9th and 10th Amendments.

If a STATE or PERSON wishes to do something NOT ENUMERATED in the Federal Constitution, then that is their right.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 6:33:39 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


He is one of the main reasons there is a hole where the towers used to be in NYC.


How about George H.W. Bush recruiting and training Osama Bin Ladin? That's a much bigger reason.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 8:39:02 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Merc,

I want to hear how you would have dealt with Iran?  Keep in mind that it shared a long border with the Soviet Union at the height of the cold war and in light of our disasterious experiences in Iraq and Somolia .  Alos at the time Iraq was a soviet client state as was most of the ME and Israels position was much more tenious and not the help they could be today.  Consider the fact that Iran is vastly larger than Iraq, has a population united by both religion and ethnicity.

Then, explain to me why dealing with the above massive issue, you give Raygun a free ride for screwing up the cake walk that should have been Lebanon and tucking tail and running after hammas butched all those Marines.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 5/22/2007 8:40:28 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 8:45:35 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


  • Who would invest in the USA economic model in the face of the USA not being able to stand up to 'students' or a newly formed, non-militarily organized government?



This question is simply odd.  What exactly does it mean?

What students?  What investors?  What non-military organized government?

If you are referring to Iran, what gives the US the right to insist they have a particular form of government?

They didnt like the Shah, they kicked him out.  They established a religious heirarchical government structure in keeping with their religion.

I am curious why you object to their ability to organize their own country based on their own ideals.

Isnt "freedom" being able to do what the heck a person wants to do?  Or is it only freedom if the US agrees it is.

quote:


  • President Carter was just "there" for the "denouement"? His lack of action during it is a direct cause of it and what has occurred subsequently in the region and throughout the world. To be clear on the question part, why is this incorrect?



Why is my statement incorrect?  I dont think my statement is incorrect.  Militant arab factionalism and internecine warfare goes back hundreds, if not thousands, of years.  The latest round probably goes back to approximately 1948 when Palestine was invaded and conquered by those wishing to start a Jewish state.  This state then relied on a vast amount of immigration to bring their numbers up, as well as vast amounts of financial and military aid from the west.

Then this country spent 20 years antagonizing their Arab neighbors.

Saying that Carter was responsible for militant Islam is like saying Mussolini was responsible for Jesus being crucified.

quote:


  • Why do you justify his surrender of US sovereignty?



Are you suggesting Iran was a US colony?  Again, this is a question where the central premise is flawed.  So I am not going to answer it.  Reword your question so the underlying premise makes sense and I will answer it.

quote:


  • Why couldn't he, as the commander and chief, organize a better plan to rescue the hostages?



Asked and answered.

In a similar vein, I could ask why Anencephalyboy couldnt, as commander and chief, organize a better plan for invading Iraq or Afghanistan.

Next!

quote:


  • Why not blame him for the rise of radical Islam, since he turned a country over to them in Iran?



Militant Islam has been growing over most of the Middle East for years and years prior to Carter.  To make the statement that the Iranian revolution was a starting point, catalyst, or central core of the rise of Militant Islam is rather myopic and ignorant.

quote:


  • How could any US ally trust him based upon the example of Iran?



Trust us for what?

quote:



President Carter was in charge. He had the power, authority, and a Congress made up of his own party.



President Bush is in charge, he had the power, the authority, and a Congress made up of his own party.

Look how well that turned out.

Next!

quote:



He had no reason to be so impotent. He is one of the main reasons there is a hole where the towers used to be in NYC.



I would love to hear a reasoned dissertation of how you connect Carter to 9/11.

Get back to me when you figure one out.  Please provide sources that didnt come from Ann Coulter.

quote:



If you want to take the question to current events. Why is he still so weak that he doesn't stand behind his own remarks and instead tries to spin them. Is it because he wants everyone to remember him as the weak, lacking backbone, inconsistent, insecure, person as he was during his administration that you admire so?



You would probably need to ask him.  I did not take that away when I have read many of his interviews.  What you call impotence, I call taking a reasoned and intelligent approach in an effort to cope with a complex situation.  What I like about what he did is that he knew that actions have consequences, and facing a relatively hostile Soviet Union pointing tens of thousands of nuclear weapons at us, he knew that the consequences of taking the wrong action were extremely bad.

AnencephalyBoy is the one with the shoot first, ask questions later attitude. 

Want to learn the character of a person, give them power.  I think Carter has vast amounts of character.

I cannot say the same for AnencephalyBoy.

Sinergy

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 8:59:50 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I assume soverienty was the issue with the Panama Canal. 

Modern Radical Islam had its start under Carter although most don't know why and it had ZERO to do with Iran and more to do with Raygun.  Carter was the one that suckered the Russians into invading Afghanistan.  Raygun used the Saudi's to fund the nutjob Saudi's to rile up the ME with Wahhabism.  Problem was when the Russians left, we didn't pressure the Saudi's to stop.  The goofy textbooks were still being used in Afghanistan that the CIA paid for that riled up kids against the West.

What should Carter have done about Afghanistan exactly?  Considering what a fucking pussy George has been, considering how some people handwring over Wesley Clarks confrontation over a tiny airfield with the Russians LONG after the cold war and LONG after GWI had shown the Russians our shit would kick their ass.  I hear people whine about his response but should he have gone to war?  Invade some random country to "even" things out?  What?

Besides, "radical islam" means Al Queda for the most part and that isn't Shia/Iranian that is Saudi/Sunni.  The Iranians/Shias have been pariahs in the ME till Bush fixed that for them and returned them to a place of power. 

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: President Jimmy Carter: Bush's impact "worst i... - 5/22/2007 9:25:50 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I assume soverienty was the issue with the Panama Canal. 



I thought that might be the case.

The problem with the whole Panamanian sovereignity thing is that the central premise is again flawed.  The United States built the Panama Canal based on a treaty providing us with a lease on the property.  The lease expired.  Carter did not wish to invade or pay the money the Panamanians were demanding to renegotiate the lease.

His decision to do so doesnt exist in a vacuum.  Modern cargo ships dont fit in the Panama Canal, so there was no profitable reason for maintaining our military presence there since the Chinese were forced to rail their goods accross the US to get them to Europe.

Except Reagan had to invade because Panama was negotiating with the Chinese to increase the size of the canal so they could bypass the United States.

AnencephalyBoy becoming militarily involved in the Middle East allowed Panama and China to negotiate that deal, and they are currently expanding the canal.  I hope most of the posters here can understand what that will do to the US economy.

Again, this is not something one can blame on Carter.

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 100
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