Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses

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Quivver -> Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 5:58:19 AM)
I suppose this is a bit of a rant, somewhat long, but I feel it's something that is behind many of the questions that come to our boards. I realize there is no solid answer, that each individual and each relationship is unique, but if nothing else it's food for thought. While reading threads this past week it dawned on me that many Submissive are Naïve, myself included at times. On a personal level this surprises me. Normally in my Nilla world all my bells and whistles are in working order and I am rarely taken in. It is here, or maybe I should say in a more personal relationship that I slip and become very near sighted while I fall for Bull Shit. Bull Shit over “looks don’t matter” is one of the posts that got me thinking how many Submissive are near sighted to their relationships. These boards are Fantastic, I have grown so much just by reading them over the years. BUT………… as I said in that thread “we here on the boards preach to a choir that know the words and sing along even if at times in a different note” what I meant by that is all too often what we preach here is from a Perfect World where the Dominants have Honor and Integrity even if not perfect themselves and Submissives/Slaves are expected to be wise and obedient. Reality is a different Dog. Few on our boards when compared to the general kinky crowd have the kind of relationship that many strive for. While striving to emulate those good ones the rest of us make a lot of mistakes mostly due to being Naïve, at least in interpersonal relationships. Please keep in mind that I am speaking from the mind set of a Submissive who has sought that blend rather then just play. The hurdles I have ran into are no different then what many others have. We meet a Dominant that does Rock our World (note: not all do) and settle into that getting to know you stage. While in that stage and trying to learn what pleases them many times we fail to remember our own needs as we push them onto a back burner. It’s in this stage where we fall harder and delude ourselves. How many Sub’s come here for advice after things go south only to hear communication is paramount, don’t be a doormat, walk away if it’s bad or your needs are not being met. When in reality they began investing themselves in that get to know you stage not to mention that many times holding firm to our needs feels selfish and very unsub like. Only to be met with the choir singing the praises of the good pairings. Granted, those good pairings may have started in the same way, and communication worked. Yet often we fail to remember there are some damn good manipulators out there who prey on Naïve to get their rocks off. The Sub’s then show up here asking why they feel unfulfilled, unwanted, unused and maybe a bit abused. And it’s those Sub’s who disappear as quickly as they show up. A couple of us (me) stay around and continue to read. I know for myself I have rationalized too many wrongs over time. I have believed words over action for longer then I care to admit. I have found myself a Bottom for a Top when I thought I had a Dominant who said they wanted a Sub. I have invested myself and found my words ignored as I have ached for use and guidance just like so many others have. Only to hear I need to stand up for myself which just feels wrong considering the dynamic we come here for. I understand the sentiment, yet when emotionally invested putting it to practice is so much harder when confronted with Dominant Tops who lack the Integrity and Honor that our Choir Sings. If I have a question in all of this it would have to be, how is a Submissive who aches to serve keep their head about them and not be unsub like, even if that unsub like is only in their heads.

pleasingpj -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 6:09:00 AM)
As a fairly new submissive i appreciate your being open enough to post this message. It speaks to some things that i have had to deal with and have been wondering. i will be anxiously awaiting the answer to your question Of "How is a submissive who aches to serve keep their head about them and not be unsub like, even if that unsub like is only in their heads?"

bandit25 -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 6:09:18 AM)
I think that's part of the problem, Quivver. Who is to say what is unsublike? Because you want to have your own needs met while serving someone else...is THAT unsublike? Who the hell says so? Some Dom who only cares about himself. I think those relationships that work are the ones that know that ANY relationship is a two way street. I think that is the first "rule" that a sub has to get into her head. I think the reason it is so hard is that is seems contradictory in a D/s relationship. But, for me, it's not at all. If my needs aren't being met, then I can't meet another's needs. It is hard not to lose one's head at times. But rather than beat yourself up over it, learn and move on. Communication is the key in ANY relationship. If you can't or won't express your thoughts, feelings, whatever, then the relationship is doomed as far as I am concerned. At that point, to me, might just as well walk away.

IrishMist -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 6:15:11 AM)
Dayum. Nice post Quivver. I wish I had an answer for the questions asked, but all I can say is what has been said before. Go into these kind of relationships with the same caution that you would a vanilla relationship. They really ARE NOT that different, despite what we would all like to think.

MstrssPassion -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 6:20:04 AM)
one definition of insanity: doing the same thing over & over & expecting a different result If you keep investing yourself, your heart... everything about you that you wish to surrender & keep finding yourself in these unfulfilled relationships with demanding, selfish doms... then you have to accept that one of the main reasons you are is because of what you are doing. It can't all be blamed on the big bad dom. As bandit just said.... who says it is unsub like? IF they tell you that you aren't being a real sub.... then you say, no... I'm being the sub that I am & we either find a happy medium or we end this because we obviously have incompatibility issues. So long as one person conforms to another's ideals, they sacrifice their individual needs. Be very careful about what you give up because the things you give up may be the very thing you need to sustain you. Compromise, don't conform. True surrender is something one has to consent to & they will only truly do so when they do so without reservation. If you feel that you are just agreeing with the dynamics being laid out in front of you because if you don't you won't get to be this submissive of your dominant's desires.... who is fooling who?

MissHarlet -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 6:20:21 AM)
I started in the lifestyle as a submissive many many years ago so I can see this from both sides I think. In my belief this is a partnership ..with the Dominant being the Senior partner.... In a business if you werent feeling good about the partnership you would leave .. tho it sounds unfeeling ...that is a rule of thumb I used as a submissive. The other rule of thumb for me .. on both sides of this lifestyle is .. this is supposed to be fun... it may not always be easy .. nor will you always like what is required of you .. but overall if it is not fun... you have the WRONG partner. Just my opinion, and I do understand the emotional investment of getting to know someone and not wanting to feel unsublike. There is NO rule that perfectly defines sublike or domlike. It is truly what works for each partner. Better to walk away with a little hurt over loss of investment than when you are emotionally and mentally bankrupt. Listen to your heart .. not what others tell you .. you SHOULD do.

slaveish -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 6:23:59 AM)
Whew, Quivver. Good post. Big answer. When one is new, staying true to the self while remaining submissive can seem impossible. All I can say is to use common sense and remember that the D/s dynamic is a ~relationship~ above all else (unless it is determined that one is indeed a bottom instead of a sub or slave). Stop focusing on the punishments; and in punishments, use your common sense. Is the punishment necessary or is it born of a manipulator with severe issues who gets off on punishing? In a vanilla relationship, would you focus on wrong-doing and atonement? Probably not. It is ridiculous to do so in kink. Focus on finding commonality and building from there. Focus on strength. Ask questions, read, learn, grow, get out in the community, don't submit to the first Dom who shows attention, and even in the throes of the "feel good" beginning stages, keep in mind your own needs. If your own needs are not being met, articulate these needs. If they still are not met, THINK. Being a submissive or slave does NOT mean you turn a blind eye to your own unmet needs. It does not mean that you stop considering yourself. It means finding a Dominant partner who understands and cares for these needs and desires. It means compatibility. If one focuses too much on punishments and all the fun frenzy stuff, you're playing a game of Jenga and the tower is tipping (not in your favor). Ask yourself if your Dom is someone you would like anyway. From the outside, if you saw him treating a girl the way he treats you, would you admire him for it? Do his tasks and requests and orders make sense? I said before, an asshole is an asshole is an asshole. Just because an asshole chooses to call itself a Dom doesn't mean he's the right Dom. Be wise. Take off the pretty glasses and scrutinize this dynamic you're in. You don't have to like everything he does (you wouldn't in a vanilla relationship either) but just because you're kinky and he's kinky doesn't give him special rights to be careless with you. Stupidity is free. Anybody can do it. Naivete is expensive. Becoming jaded is only part of the price. I wish everyone well. God, don't be stupid.

MadRabbit -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 6:26:37 AM)
In my opinion, keep it vanilla for the first few months without the trappings of "Me, Dom. You, sub". More or less, take those rose colored glasses off. Practice discipline from emotional attachment. With any new relationship, its important to get past the "Hot Pants and Honeymoon" period where everything is so perfect without losing perspective or developing serious attachment.

Quivver -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 6:29:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 If you can't or won't express your thoughts, feelings, whatever, then the relationship is doomed as far as I am concerned. At that point, to me, might just as well walk away. Actually Bandit my communication skills have grown to where I am proud of them. I even learned I can remove my walls and pour myself out without sounding needy. Standing there transparent and vulnerable was the hardest thing I have ever experienced. Seeing it acknowledged in a font was warming, but this is yet one more area that actions speak louder then words. And I honestly believe that many a Submissive hangs on this leash waiting for the follow though that never comes. Walking away is the only option if we’ve made this mistake. Although once invested extremely hard to do.

KatyLied -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 6:31:13 AM)
Quivver I have become jaded, although I'm not yet bitter. I am frustrated because I have hopes for a future, which include partnership and I can't find the right person. I solved this dilemma by making my life so busy that I rarely have time for myself. This has helped me not to whine and obsess about not finding someone. One the rare occasions when I thought I found a match, it never worked out. I don't know if I'm picking the wrong person, or people are insincere, or if I'm really just not quite good enough (But I am right? But they always seem to think I'm good enough to hang on to in some form - like friends with benefits, but not relationship-quality good enough). For these reasons I'm no longer looking. If something great falls into my lap....wonderful. I'm not holding my breath and I just bought new batteries for my vibrator. [;)]

NakedGirlScout -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 6:32:09 AM)
I was extremely lucky to have a dominant mentor while I was getting to know doms for a relationship. He and his slave supplied the bullshit-o-meter when my good sense failed me. Even so I frequently saw submissives ignore their advice and get into these horrible, lying and even criminal relationships. I feel that having a mentor who partially met my submissive needs took the edge off my frenzy. Of course that begs the question of how one would have the judgement to select a mentor, who is as difficult to find as a Master is, and just as likely to be a fake. To that I don't really have a good answer except to observe how that person treats other submissives and judge whether you'd be comfortable with the treatment shown to them.

Quivver -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 6:41:04 AM)
You know Slaveish the one I have in mind at the moment is someone I like as a human. I have admired him for a very long time. It is just the realization after the fact that his talents are beyond my ability to fathom. And it's Sad to see that Admiration disolve into Ass Hole status............ {quote]ORIGINAL: slaveish Ask yourself if your Dom is someone you would like anyway. From the outside, if you saw him treating a girl the way he treats you, would you admire him for it? Do his tasks and requests and orders make sense? I said before, an asshole is an asshole is an asshole. Just because an asshole chooses to call itself a Dom doesn't mean he's the right Dom. Be wise. Take off the pretty glasses and scrutinize this dynamic you're in. You don't have to like everything he does (you wouldn't in a vanilla relationship either) but just because you're kinky and he's kinky doesn't give him special rights to be careless with you. Stupidity is free. Anybody can do it. Naivete is expensive. Becoming jaded is only part of the price. I wish everyone well. God, don't be stupid. [/quote]

imthatacheyouhav -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 7:05:17 AM)
Boy can i relate to this..... i had a profile and my "handle" was "heartlaidbare"...that kinda says it all. I don't know if i am just too stupid to guard my heart or if i think building that kind of wall around my heart is just too high a price. I really enjoy people, and i don't want to chance missing some wonderful experiences by "walling" myself off...so i chose to hurt i guess.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 7:13:39 AM)
BDSM doesn't make people better, deeper, nicer, or more noble. Hard work, luck, and striving to question yourself and examine our patterns is what makes us better, vanilla, kinky, or whatever. If your vanilla relationships suck, you better figure out why because you are going to make similar mistakes in choosing partners, behaving, testing, acting out, being angry, etc. with your kinky partners. Those patterns are because of you and your choices and behaviors. Figure out what they are and change them. Communication isn't hurling words at another person, communication is about finding safety in vulnerability. It is being able to say the things that used to terrify you to a person whom you have found that will make you safer by being vulnerable. Saying "when you do x, I feel horrible, can we talk about ways to make me feel better?" and having someone turn off the tv and listen TO you. Or "I know doing Y is important to you but can we discuss stopping?" and not having to worry that stopping will involve ending the relationship, it might change it, comprimises might have to be made but knowing that the two of you will work it out together, THAT is communication. Understanding your issues and that other people fart and pick their noses and are real with their own issues to allows you to look at someone with a bit more realistic eye. Know that even I can appear perfect for a weekend or two, that the reality isn't as good as the fantasy but if you want reality it can be better than the fantasy.

bandit25 -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 7:23:28 AM)
Yanno, Quivver...you and I have chatted and I know your communication skills are good. When I said "you", I wasn't referring to you, Quivver, I was using the universal you. I wonder how many subs think it is unsublike to speak up. They are concerned they come off as unsublike. What rot! Maybe the thing to do is convince them that by not conveying their thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc. they are topping from the bottom...expecting the dom to be a mind reader. Now, you're never gonna convince an asshole of anything, but I wonder if, at times, things go south just because the sub was so afraid of being thought of as unsublike, that she simply went along with things until it was, basically, simply too late.

mistoferin -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 7:31:46 AM)
Quivver, I see naivety as only one part of the problem. There is also a conditioning or programming that is widely accepted and perpetuated that as submissives we need to prove our submissive nature by jumping in with both feet in a relatively short period of time. We hear that message from Dominants constantly....but even more damaging we hear it from "s" types too. We hear many "s" types declaring that their only needs are to fulfill their Dominant/Master's needs. They say that their only goal in life is to be in service to one and to be found pleasing. They say that you just have to obey and trust in the Dominant to know what is right for you. I could make a list three miles long of these types of sentiments that are frequently bounced around here. While there is nothing wrong with any of those statements, they should always be relative to the end goal of where you would like your relationship to be and not practices that we should apply right out of the box. Then there is the "well, how long" factor. I have seen people collared and professing to be completely owned within days or weeks. I don't understand how anyone could know someone enough to develop that type of trust in that time frame. So, months? Years? Is there an answer? I think that instead of putting a time constraint on it, we would be far better ahead to look for partners who are willing to go the long haul and allow it to take it's natural course. Allow our submission to grow in direct relation with the depth of the relationship.We don't need to lay ourselves at the feet of a perspective Dominant to prove our submission. We don't need to forget that we are an "I" in order to be part of an "us". Every one of us here has most likely heard....but if you were a real submissive.... Or some other such thing that suggests that we have to prove ourselves at the gate. I just laugh. I have been in three long term D/s relationships, two of which eventually progressed to M/s. All three of my ex's would probably tell you that when I first met them I was about as submissive to them as I would be to a Dentist who was suggesting he wished to pull my teeth with rusty pliers and no anesthetic. I don't go along with the "submission is a gift" mentality....it's not something that I just give. It's something that develops and deepens with time. It's not an "all or nothing" thing. I don't wake up one morning and say "Ok...we have been dating long enough now and so I've decided I'm going to let you take over now". It's something that grows just a little deeper with each passing day.

earthycouple -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 7:33:30 AM)
Quote from OP's post: "Normally in my Nilla world all my bells and whistles are in working order and I am rarely taken in. It is here, or maybe I should say in a more personal relationship that I slip and become very near sighted while I fall for Bull Shit." How is a submissive falling for a Dom and then gets screwed any different from the millions of women who are domestically abused? I don't understand how "this lifestyle" is different than living as an "anything" vanilla couple. I was physically, mentally and sexually abused by a vanilla husband (not my wonderful hubby now) he did it in the beginning he did it in the middle he did it until I tore off the rose glasses and said "fuck you, I'm leaving"....4 years later. I went through hell. I am not the only woman ever to be abused either. Of course one hopes that this extremity never happens...but it does. You get your head above water by *LEARNING FROM YOUR MISTAKES!* I learned that I didn't deserve what he did to me. I learned that I'm a better person. So...when I brought a sub into my home recently to live here, 24/7 he had his issues and we were working through them trying to make a wonderful home for all of us. He had anger issues and on the last night he lived in this house he lashed out at me and pushed me down. Gee...who knew a sub would abuse a dominant???? Go figure. People are people are people and just because he's sub or dom doesn't mean he's not subject to human traits (even the sucky ones). When this sub pushed me down and harmed me. My husband and I removed him from the house. He stood on my door step while everything he owned was put on on the steps for him to load up and get out. That husband who abused me...I learned from. I learned if he will lay a hand in anger on you once, he'll do it twice. So that sub was out the door without a second though. Fool me once... Quote from OP: "how is a Submissive who aches to serve keep their head about them and not be unsub like, even if that unsub like is only in their heads." Unsub like? Define that in YOUR words and I'll get back to you. My definition, so far..... not beating your domininant up because you don't like her rules. As for the putzes online who we all bypass because they are posers...they don't count...because I haven't brought them into my home and tried to build a life with them. When my slave now, does something unsub like, I'll be sure to ammend my definition.

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 7:36:21 AM)
A post that makes us all think, Quiver. Expectations of a woman who finds her way into a D/s connection confuse her into thinking more is going to be there than is present in her regular life. I’ve seen very ordinary women post here that they were overwhelmed with all the attention when they came on CM and entered the lifestyle in other ways. Throw in their first BDSM play where they possibly space for the first time and they are in a vulnerable stage where expectations are unlimited. The problem is that these same women are around a year or so later still looking for that Dom who cares about them. Nothing changes by joining the group. You gain experience in BDSM by looking for something else is about all you can say. As a Dom, I also understand that many subs also want to be exploited in mean, uncaring ways because that is something they can’t have with vanilla men and they have the deep desire to be used. That is well and fine, but I also find they eventually have another very ordinary side that needs respect and friendship. I compartmentalize everything. I use her briefly and in the right situations, but the overlying premise or our relationship is going to be friendly respect that is going to make her feel good about herself. Does this make her more likely to disobey me? No, it is the exact opposite effect. She will do much more to keep the D/s relationship stronger because she feels a compartmentalized submission and, also, finds the warm feelings respect gives to anyone.

Quivver -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 7:39:23 AM)
I couldnt agree more Michael. And it was just that kind of communication that I had done wrong for so long. It is a hurdle I feel I have crossed. Conversation is tackling issues, getting answers, finding what works and what doesnt. Yet I think many who try to communicate find it a one way street and make excuses for no answers. I know I have more then I care to admit. Once we let it go on long enough we see it for the red flag that it is. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Communication isn't hurling words at another person, communication is about finding safety in vulnerability. It is being able to say the things that used to terrify you to a person whom you have found that will make you safer by being vulnerable. Saying "when you do x, I feel horrible, can we talk about ways to make me feel better?" and having someone turn off the tv and listen TO you. Or "I know doing Y is important to you but can we discuss stopping?" and not having to worry that stopping will involve ending the relationship, it might change it, comprimises might have to be made but knowing that the two of you will work it out together, THAT is communication.

salilus -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 7:41:30 AM)
Before I say anything else, I will admit that there are people out there who can fool another human being into believing they are something they're not. There are people out there who will take advantage of anything they can. There are people who will say anything to laid. However, I see a lot of the "so and so is not what they claim to be because they don't do X!!" posts and comments around the bdsm communities. I hear it in real life as well. I hear a lot of people talking about 'The Process' instead of 'Their Process' on how they get from point A to the happy land at point B in their little bdsm world. People make it sound as if their answer is the only one, when it's probably just the only one for them. I've been moved by this before, so much that I wrote a bit about it in my journal a couple months back: We have a self proclaimed dom. We shall call him Mr Fish. Mr. Fish really wants to find a submissive... or so he thinks. Mr Fish has no real interest in actively dominating anyone; he's quite selfish. All he really wants is the service a submissive might be interested in providing. He will eventually expect said submissive to go without any or much domination, sex, discipline, punishments, etc, without complaint. He really wants a servant. However, he meets Ms. Port. And Ms. Port needs dominance in her life. She wishes to be commanded, adored, disciplined, used sexually, perhaps even broken while she serves another's wishes and whims. It's a need; I have to stress that - we may all be able to live without a spanking or rough sex, but we probably are not really fulfilled. If we were fulfilled, we would spend our lives doting on vanilla folk rather than seeking out people with whom we might feel happy and satisfied. Anyways, Ms. Port and Mr. Fish meet. Perhaps they are honest with each other... but most likely, they are not completely honest. Why? Because it really is hard to find anyone who wants to serve/dominate us, isn't it? So they end up together and Ms. Port ends up miserable because she is ignored. Meanwhile, she is told that she must go through this process to become a good slave for Mr. Fish. She must learn to control herself, be calm, quiet, and 'invisible,' as all good servants are. She goes through this process and speaks then speaks about how it is the process that needs to happen to be a good little slave. Other people read it and some will believe this is the way things should work. Meanwhile, Mr. Fish gets what he wants because he is a master and a master should shape the slave, right? Sure! Meanwhile, Ms. White is crying ABUSE!! because she ended up with Mr. Chezcake, who really wants to micro-manage her whole life whilst she just wants to cook and clean and be left alone... damn it. Now, add in the fact that they're all writing online. They're all trying to out type each other and tell everyone how they are so much further along in The Process... when really, they are a)further along in a process and b)probably miserable and trying to justify it to themselves (I say this because I read about how lonely and sad they are a lot of the time and how they 'get through' all of these things). I completely understand how these things happen. And it's not just naivety, it's a deep seated need to try and have that which makes one the happiest. If we could be honest with ourselves, to start, and then everyone else as well, it would help so very much.

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