RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses

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juliaoceania -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 7:44:36 AM)
The times I have allowed myself to be naive I knew deep in my heart that I was being a sucker. I intentionally looked the other way and ignored the red flags.

SirDominic -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 7:55:16 AM)
If I have a question in all of this it would have to be, how is a Submissive who aches to serve keep their head about them and not be unsub like, even if that unsub like is only in their heads. One of the best pieces of advice I can offer is to Know Thyself; which goes for any form of relationship and life in general. The more you understand yourself, what your wants really are, what your needs really are. Really getting to know who you are will enable you to make a much more clear picture of what kind of person will best suit you. Secondly, don't rush into anything. When you meet someone, and it really seems to click, too many blindly accept the person on a superficial level, focusing rather on the excitement of the moment. Take some time to know each other. See that words and actions align. While I think MadRabbit's idea of keeping it vanilla for a few months is extreme, he does have the right idea. Thirdly, communication is important; several have said that. More importantly though is how you communicate. How comfortable are you and your partner saying the hard things to each other? The fun, easy stuff doesn't tell you anything. I had to teach my slave that she could truly tell me anything and trust that I would not have a negative reaction to it. This was so hard for her, and would be hard for many slaves as they so want approval from their Master, and so fear disappointing him. Honesty is crucial to a successful relationship, in this world or the vanilla one. You can't be honest only when it is easy, you have to be able to be honest when it is hard, and know you won't be belittled for it, or attacked because of it. There are a lot of very slick people out there of both sexes, and there can be no guarantee that despite your best efforts you won't be bamboozled. With the suggestions I outlined above, you have a much better chance of seeing through the crap. Namaste, Sir Dominic

sleazybutterfly -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 8:00:19 AM)
I know that I have rose colored glasses for most people and not just those into bdsm. I like that to think that people are mostly good and honest, with a few bad apples thrown in the mix. I just had to figure out a way after all I had been through to keep that part of myself and still have the part that knows when to walk away from a bad situation. I know I have become smarter as time has went on. When M and I found each other, I knew exactly what I was looking for and didn't ever cut any options off until we spent time together and got to know each other. His is the only collar I have accepted and I am very proud of that fact. My niece talked to me the other day about how she is nice to everyone and treats them good. She has a really good and loving heart, and she was trying to figure out how to keep that without being walked on. She reminds me of myself in a lot of ways, but I think she is purer of intentions that I was at her age. I told her that being nice to someone didn't ever mean you should have to be walked on by them. I see she is pretty submissive in nature and that scares me a bit. I don't want her to ever feel like she has to be one or the other...a hard ass, or a doormat. I am a slave, but still very strong on the opinion side of things. I always stand up for myself and know my worth. I don't think that is smug....I think that is smart. I want things out of my life also and if he and I don't match on those..then I won't ever be happy and just like anyone else on this earth, I deserve that. I do live for making my M happy and pleasing him, but that is only because I know he lives to protect, love, care for, and be the strong man that I need in my life. We both put a lot into our relationship and that is why I believe that it will last. When I made the decision to marry him, it went another step. Commitment, honesty, integrity, work, and love....as long as we both keep putting those things in, I do think that it will all work out for the best (on both sides).

pinksugarsub -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 8:01:36 AM)
Quivver i can identify with everything you've said. i myself just ended a relationship that was quite close because, despite the joy i felt in submitting to the extent that i did, i admitted to myself that He was wrong for me and that that had been apparent from O/our first IM. He is a good Man with the qualities i seek but He is way too extreme for me and there were other issues. However, He is very charismatic and i found myself caught in a cycle of agreeing to s'thing when asked out of impluse, then having to confess later i really couldn't do it. i learnt much from my relationship with this Man and i don't regret it at all, but the most important lesson i learnt is that my desire to be and be found pleasing runs way ahead of my instincts and just plain common sense. i learnt to say "let me think about it" rather than to agree immediately, and it may not seem like much, but it's a major improvement for me. Despite everything i will miss Him, maybe for a long time. i think i was entralled. Sighs. All i can do is float...He will show up in my life or He will not, and meantime i need to make my life and peaceful and secure and even joyful as i can. i have run across every type of Man here; and have engaged in convos and allowed it to go on knowing i had no interest whatsoever. i wouldn't say it's my "fault" but it is my learning curve, my responsibility. i think i've grown a lot; one reason i'm so happy i found D/s a couple of years ago. Be well my friend.

DrkJourney -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 8:18:15 AM)
I know there are a lot of "players" and those that don't care what the other wants, and I know you might not want to hear this ....it lies with you. You mention voicing your opinions is unsub like. You have to realize, you might have a sub mentality, but you are not "that" persons sub until an agreement is made. Don't jump into anything, try to get to know the person, and more importantly let them get to know you. I have passed on several from here because they would NOT communicate with me. Before we even meet, some wait until the first meeting...they want to jump into the role of my slave. Well I haven't chosen you as of yet...we are supposed to be getting to know each other. I press and I press....to find out limits, likes, dislikes, bdsm as well as vanilla, I mean I do want a full relationship with this person, so I'd like to be able to go places and do outside things with him...and all I get some "flowery" slave answer, (you know like I have to hear what his thoughts on the slave role is, and the domme role, etc...and how women are superior...yadda yadda yadda) Now how is this crap going to help me make a decision? We here already know the roles of Dominants and submissives, why are you telling me this? I honestly need to know what's in your head, or how can I be a good Domme to you? How will I know which buttons to push and which ones to back away from? I guess I'm saying, you have a sub mentality, that's great that you know yourself that well...but you have got to remember....until both are in agreement you are not owned by that person, just because you are talking, not even if you meet. There has to be a point where you both say, let's do this thing. And if you run into those that try to rush or manipulate you...get away....simple, you have that right. You said a lot mention communication...I"m sorry, but that is the only way....we are not mind readers...you have to talk, you have to express yourself if you don't how will we know? You two are on equal ground until an agreement is made, so talk. And as I said before, if someone that is not your Domme won't allow you to do this...move on. Take your time before you jump in, be sure....life is looooong and miserable if you pick the wrong person

Mercnbeth -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 8:26:45 AM)
this slave believes it is naive to think that everyone has the same reality that we all must face in our own special ways other than the obvious one we all share: Death. even the reality of death is believed to have some aspects to it that are hotly debated...like how or if we get to consciously move on to something else, what or even if there are things we do here that are known, or have influence in that way. one could make an argument that naiveté is a pretty common human trait. the BL is : there are no guarantees. this slave has splayed herself open and served every relationship she has ever had with fierce devotion and loyalty. the ones where this slave was being treated like crap ended, and ones where this slave's service wasn't appreciated or needed or positive, moved on and divorced themselves from this slave, legally, emotionally and physically. the one where this slave was in danger of losing her need to breathe oxygen because she would no longer have a throat was given three days to remove whatever he wanted from this slave's home. one of the main reasons this slave refers to her relationship with Master as blessed is because this slave did not go in search of a Master/slave labeled relationship. this slave mis-identified herself as a a submissive, and if she would have insisted on all of the protocols that get bandied about here with regards to what differentiates a submissive from a "no-limits slave", or as some refer to it "doormat", mentally ill from doing the same thing over and over again and expecting it to be different...she wouldn't have the relationship she has with Master now. just a few thoughts! warmly, beth

DrkJourney -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 8:29:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied Quivver I have become jaded, although I'm not yet bitter. I am frustrated because I have hopes for a future, which include partnership and I can't find the right person. I solved this dilemma by making my life so busy that I rarely have time for myself. This has helped me not to whine and obsess about not finding someone. One the rare occasions when I thought I found a match, it never worked out. I don't know if I'm picking the wrong person, or people are insincere, or if I'm really just not quite good enough (But I am right? But they always seem to think I'm good enough to hang on to in some form - like friends with benefits, but not relationship-quality good enough). For these reasons I'm no longer looking. If something great falls into my lap....wonderful. I'm not holding my breath and I just bought new batteries for my vibrator. [;)] Amen....I'm going through the exact same thing, with the exact same solution...er....except for the vibrator thing....I broke mine...(waaaaaahhhhh) [sm=biggrin.gif]

earthycouple -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 8:48:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DrkJourney except for the vibrator thing....I broke mine...(waaaaaahhhhh) [sm=biggrin.gif] I'll start a fund for you...since I can't live without mine...now if everyone who reads this...sends one penny to Drk...she can be vibing again in no time...S

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 8:51:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth this slave believes it is naive to think that everyone has the same reality that we all must face in our own special ways other than the obvious one we all share: Death. even the reality of death is believed to have some aspects to it that are hotly debated...like how or if we get to consciously move on to something else, what or even if there are things we do here that are known, or have influence in that way. one could make an argument that naiveté is a pretty common human trait. the BL is : there are no guarantees. this slave has splayed herself open and served every relationship she has ever had with fierce devotion and loyalty. the ones where this slave was being treated like crap ended, and ones where this slave's service wasn't appreciated or needed or positive, moved on and divorced themselves from this slave, legally, emotionally and physically. the one where this slave was in danger of losing her need to breathe oxygen because she would no longer have a throat was given three days to remove whatever he wanted from this slave's home. one of the main reasons this slave refers to her relationship with Master as blessed is because this slave did not go in search of a Master/slave labeled relationship. this slave mis-identified herself as a a submissive, and if she would have insisted on all of the protocols that get bandied about here with regards to what differentiates a submissive from a "no-limits slave", or as some refer to it "doormat", mentally ill from doing the same thing over and over again and expecting it to be different...she wouldn't have the relationship she has with Master now. just a few thoughts! warmly, beth An excellent post that reveals much about the trip many submissives make until they find IT.

Copulo -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 8:58:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain A post that makes us all think, Quiver. Expectations of a woman who finds her way into a D/s connection confuse her into thinking more is going to be there than is present in her regular life. I’ve seen very ordinary women post here that they were overwhelmed with all the attention when they came on CM and entered the lifestyle in other ways. Throw in their first BDSM play where they possibly space for the first time and they are in a vulnerable stage where expectations are unlimited. The problem is that these same women are around a year or so later still looking for that Dom who cares about them. Nothing changes by joining the group. You gain experience in BDSM by looking for something else is about all you can say. Bingo! These are the exact words I was looking for. I was chatting to a sub female on the phone about this, this very afternoon and I had not even read this thread. A sub may be here a year 2 years or many years from now and still looking for a dominant for the simple reason that they have journeyed forward. Gone are the days when all this was just ‘SO’ exciting and basically anyone who professed to be dominant would do. When subs first come into this they are probably far more clear about what they want than when they have been around on here for six months. They are bombarded with so many different angles that they are left feeling like a dogs dinner. Once they have journeyed they reached a stage of knowing what they actually want (all becomes clear) and getting what you actually want is sometimes a difficult task. Of course subs often make mistakes to get to this stage and often the mistakes are made over and over because the journey can be so bloody confusing and they have not yet come to terms with working out just what its all about for ‘them’. When eventually the sub finds happiness and lets hope that he/she does she needs to ask herself a question. Is this all she ever wanted? And the answer will be clearly ‘yes’. But to get to the ‘all she ever wanted’ bit she often has to go through a hole bundle of feelings, emotions, troubles and strife’s. This is the one reason I would rarely go for a new sub. One who is journeyed is more clear in his/her head about who she/he is and what he/she wants. They have shed the outer clothing that is no longer needed, they have calmed down and want to move forward in a much more positive way and for these reasons they will come to you in their purest form.

DrkJourney -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 9:00:13 AM)
One more thing Quivver....subs/slaves are not the only ones who wear "the glasses" When I first came to the website years ago I was so excited I would bend over backwards to collar someone, sometimes to the point of putting to the side what I really wanted. I knew what was in my head, I knew what I wanted, but I let one good conversation cloud my head. What worked for me is that I sat and wrote down my expectations (and to the smartasses that comment on my profile being long, yes my expectations are long too.....LOL) I talk to someone and get to know them...if they sound like a good match, before I meet them I send them these expectations. That way I can get my point across...how my process works, and nothing is forgotten. I know it sounds "Sesame Street" but as I'm sure you can attests to, finding someone on here that seems to match in what you want and in personalities is rare....so when I think I've found one I get side tracked by a lot of "shiney objects"...lol This has really worked for me....I've had some that agreed, we met, and some where still scammers trying to get laid (but at least I can say I was up front in what I wanted, so they can't say later that they didn't know), can't get away from the assholes no matter how hard you plan and try. I have met some that didn't work out for one reason or another, and we are friends....then there are those that I send to, that didn't quite understand until they read what I wanted....and they declined...which saves loads of time. I'm not saying create a "do me" list...I mean honestly write out what kind of relationship that you want, limits, etc. If you don't want to send it, keep it by you when you chat as a reminder to slow down and get to know this person. For those that are serious, it opens up a dialog....and they respond with "like" comments about what they are looking for. Sounds silly, and it may not work for you, but it's saved me a LOT of time on occasion.[sm=flowers.gif]

agirl -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 9:00:53 AM)
This is easy to type and say, but getting to know someone as a person with no agenda in mind makes everything a lot clearer; not thinking in terms of potential anything except potential nice, interesting person to have contact with, in my life, is far easier said than done. If you're on a mission to find a dom then expectations and agendas are in place, already. If you're in the getting to know you phase, shouldn't it just BE that?. In getting to know someone as a person, the way their dominance is evident will show, without it being applicable to you, without it being directed AT you, without it being viewed from the angle of * If they owned me. The problem with having an ache* and searching, IS that you have an ache and you're longing to pin it somewhere, to have a home for it, you're hoping and wishing........you have an agenda. agirl

DrkJourney -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 9:01:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: earthycouple quote: ORIGINAL: DrkJourney except for the vibrator thing....I broke mine...(waaaaaahhhhh) [sm=biggrin.gif] I'll start a fund for you...since I can't live without mine...now if everyone who reads this...sends one penny to Drk...she can be vibing again in no time...S yipppeeeeee.....hey, can we have a telethon??? I know it's a lot to ask, but I want the real expensive one with multi speeds.....[sm=banana.gif]

vegasvixen -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 9:29:31 AM)
This is indeed a thought provoking post as are the responses. I have had my own encounters with predatory behaviour as I think we all have, so let's set that aside as a given....there are assholes out there, but there are also genuine people that get labelled as assholes when a "relationship" fails because they did not live up to our expectations. It's just not as black and white as we might want it to be. It is not always a matter of being naive or wearing blinders during the initial stages, although that can be a big part of it, it is also a suble failure of language as a tool. Yes, communication is key and I am not trying to minimize the value of talking openly, but one aspect of communication that a lot of people miss is that words are relative. What you mean by your use of a certain word or phrase is often dependant upon your experience, your background, your "dialect." Yes, there are those that deliberately miscommunicate in order to use or take advantage of others. But there are also those that are being honest, it's just that the words they use may have a slightly different meaning to the listener. Differences can be subtle. And the aggregate of these subtle differences can make for major communication failures. Good communication can uncover these differences over time, sometimes they can be reconciled. But the simple fact is that as human beings we are all a lot more complex than we want to believe and relationships increase that complexity exponentially. Language as an imperfect tool cannot always cut through that complexity quickly. Standing up for yourself may not be so un-subly if you think of it more as an exercise in better defining your communications and an attempt to refine your meaning. And don't forget that compromise is always a big part of a good relationship whether it is vanilla or d/s. Denying your dom the opportunity to clearly understand you and/or to compromise is topping from the bottom, imho.

Quivver -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 10:00:47 AM)
Expectations, what are those really? Is expecting words to become reality wrong? I feel that expecting a progression or follow through on words is not a form of expectations, it is a very realistic step in developing the relationship. If finding Ass Hole on the tip of your tongue after seeing those undeveloped words is labeling then many of us all into that category. I am a firm believer in perceptions being unique to each individual and at times feel this is an area that as a Sub I tend to not push when I should, if no more then to gain clarity. Yet those times when questions are asked and there is no response it becomes apparent if only in assumption what the answers actually are. And I also believe that many Sub's fall victim to this very same thing regardless if they are new or not. Standing up for yourself has to come, be it in words or action at some point. And I agree that the tool of our language is imperfect but without it searching for compromise would be almost futile. At some point, best in the beginning I suppose painting that picture clearly of what you want is imperative. Or you are just cheating the both of you. Yet following your gut even in the answers doesn’t mean the other is above board either. I do want to add this….. Much of what I am relating here is not entirely for my own benefit. I am not new, or desperate to have my needs filled anymore then the next person. But I felt by putting myself here on the line it may assist other Sub’s who have more trouble speaking up. quote: ORIGINAL: vegasvixen This is indeed a thought provoking post as are the responses. I have had my own encounters with predatory behaviour as I think we all have, so let's set that aside as a given....there are assholes out there, but there are also genuine people that get labelled as assholes when a "relationship" fails because they did not live up to our expectations. It's just not as black and white as we might want it to be. It is not always a matter of being naive or wearing blinders during the initial stages, although that can be a big part of it, it is also a suble failure of language as a tool. Yes, communication is key and I am not trying to minimize the value of talking openly, but one aspect of communication that a lot of people miss is that words are relative. What you mean by your use of a certain word or phrase is often dependant upon your experience, your background, your "dialect." Yes, there are those that deliberately miscommunicate in order to use or take advantage of others. But there are also those that are being honest, it's just that the words they use may have a slightly different meaning to the listener. Differences can be subtle. And the aggregate of these subtle differences can make for major communication failures. Good communication can uncover these differences over time, sometimes they can be reconciled. But the simple fact is that as human beings we are all a lot more complex than we want to believe and relationships increase that complexity exponentially. Language as an imperfect tool cannot always cut through that complexity quickly. Standing up for yourself may not be so un-subly if you think of it more as an exercise in better defining your communications and an attempt to refine your meaning. And don't forget that compromise is always a big part of a good relationship whether it is vanilla or d/s. Denying your dom the opportunity to clearly understand you and/or to compromise is topping from the bottom, imho.

YesMistressIrish -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 10:16:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 I think that's part of the problem, Quivver. Who is to say what is unsublike? Because you want to have your own needs met while serving someone else...is THAT unsublike? Who the hell says so? Some Dom who only cares about himself. I think those relationships that work are the ones that know that ANY relationship is a two way street. I think that is the first "rule" that a sub has to get into her head. I think the reason it is so hard is that is seems contradictory in a D/s relationship. But, for me, it's not at all. If my needs aren't being met, then I can't meet another's needs. It is hard not to lose one's head at times. But rather than beat yourself up over it, learn and move on. Communication is the key in ANY relationship. If you can't or won't express your thoughts, feelings, whatever, then the relationship is doomed as far as I am concerned. At that point, to me, might just as well walk away. Bandit, Beautiful post! Kudos2U!

pinksugarsub -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 10:37:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl This is easy to type and say, but getting to know someone as a person with no agenda in mind makes everything a lot clearer; not thinking in terms of potential anything except potential nice, interesting person to have contact with, in my life, is far easier said than done. If you're on a mission to find a dom then expectations and agendas are in place, already. If you're in the getting to know you phase, shouldn't it just BE that?. In getting to know someone as a person, the way their dominance is evident will show, without it being applicable to you, without it being directed AT you, without it being viewed from the angle of * If they owned me. The problem with having an ache* and searching, IS that you have an ache and you're longing to pin it somewhere, to have a home for it, you're hoping and wishing........you have an agenda. agirl This captured what i wanted to say so well. i have given up "searching" and now i just "float"; either He'll show up or He won't, and it's not s'thing i have any control over. i no longer begin any communication with any Dom wondering if He could "be the One", but for me it still requires discipline not to.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 10:41:14 AM)
The one part of your post that I have to question is this. The general kinky crowd??? In my experience, they have crappy relationships too. quote: ORIGINAL: Quivver Few on our boards when compared to the general kinky crowd have the kind of relationship that many strive for.

Quivver -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 10:53:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster The one part of your post that I have to question is this. The general kinky crowd??? In my experience, they have crappy relationships too. I agree, it's just that while reading we usually hear of the good cause no one wants to listen to the ugly.

agirl -> RE: Naive Submissives ... the pit falls of Rose Colored Glasses (5/20/2007 10:58:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic If I have a question in all of this it would have to be, how is a Submissive who aches to serve keep their head about them and not be unsub like, even if that unsub like is only in their heads. One of the best pieces of advice I can offer is to Know Thyself; which goes for any form of relationship and life in general. The more you understand yourself, what your wants really are, what your needs really are. Really getting to know who you are will enable you to make a much more clear picture of what kind of person will best suit you. Secondly, don't rush into anything. When you meet someone, and it really seems to click, too many blindly accept the person on a superficial level, focusing rather on the excitement of the moment. Take some time to know each other. See that words and actions align. While I think MadRabbit's idea of keeping it vanilla for a few months is extreme, he does have the right idea. Thirdly, communication is important; several have said that. More importantly though is how you communicate. How comfortable are you and your partner saying the hard things to each other? The fun, easy stuff doesn't tell you anything. I had to teach my slave that she could truly tell me anything and trust that I would not have a negative reaction to it. This was so hard for her, and would be hard for many slaves as they so want approval from their Master, and so fear disappointing him. Honesty is crucial to a successful relationship, in this world or the vanilla one. You can't be honest only when it is easy, you have to be able to be honest when it is hard, and know you won't be belittled for it, or attacked because of it. There are a lot of very slick people out there of both sexes, and there can be no guarantee that despite your best efforts you won't be bamboozled. With the suggestions I outlined above, you have a much better chance of seeing through the crap. Namaste, Sir Dominic I hardly think that keeping it vanilla for a few months is extreme. agirl

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