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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 11:15:07 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

I'm appreciating all the comments here. I know it's a touchy subject. to some it's a black and white issue and to others it's a gray one.

If I had a condition where I could no longer play with my partner and I knew he really enjoyed it, I would allow it. I might want to know that he was "playing" but I would not want any gory details either. If you trust your partner, you trust your partner. The surest way to kill a relationship is to keep a strangle hold on it.

There are grey areas. But the situation you have just given as an example isn't what I would call a grey area, because it is a consensual informed relationship on on all counts - not cheating.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 11:33:57 AM

earthycouple

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For what it is worth, My story:

I knew from a very young age I was different in what I wanted. I'll skip the parts that aren't relevant but know I hopped from one relationship to another. Finally when I met the man who was to be my third, yes count them third husband I had an idea of who I was and what I needed. I had done some exploration as a sub. I told him that this was part of my life and he explains he is a "master" keep in mind I'm still naive (very very naive). I believed that I would finally find what I had needed all my life. That this was real. Before we were married he had violent tendancies but I ignored them. I got pregnant about um, three months in. During the pregnancy he tried to choke me one night in anger over a television show. I didn't leave. His idea of "Master" was beating me; his idea of "Master" was sitting in a corner smoking while telling me to masturbate and not cum. His idea of "Master" was having sex each and every time while calling me a slut or a whore. There was never love, caring or compassion. It all finally stopped...no "sex" no "domination". I wanted so much to bring life into our marriage in any form. I had every argument I could to try to create balance...all to no avail. To find out how to bring a real loving connection to us. I said at one point I needed to have some physical gratification. He bought me a vibrator. Months later I told him I needed BDSM in my life that I couldn't continue to live like this. He "allowed" me to seek friends in the lifestyle.

After a few weeks I met a man who was wonderful. I was infatuated with real Dominance, real care, and real love. While I never had intercourse with this man while I was with my husband, we did engage in BDSM, kissing, touching and omg the best orgasms I'd ever known til that point. Was I cheating? I have no idea. That depends on the reader's idea of what cheating is. My husband knew I was going out and seeking the life. Did he know this man was touching my body? Did he know this man was creating feelings in me I'd never felt before? No. He didn't want to hear it, I didn't want to tell it.

It wasn't too long later that I left my husband. Not because of the life, but because he finally pushed me over the edge when he took off in his car claiming he was going to go kill himself and took my UM with him. That was it. I was done. My UM is safe and lives happily with me she has a wonderful step dad and an adorable younger UM.

Would I eventually have left him for someone else who was lifestyle? I don't know. Probably. I'd like to think every day of my life makes me a bit wiser than the one before. I do know that the last few months of my marriage were the best days I'd had in my life in the last 20 some odd years because I was finally back to what mattered to me....living in a manner in which I was meant to live. I do know that if I had continued to be with the husband, that is, he never pulled the "kill myself" stunt I would have gotten to the point of "literally cheating" because I wanted more than life itself to make love with the man I called Sir.

I understand this example is so very different from the "idylic" scenario presented...that couple are happy in all aspects except in "lifestyle things". It was after leaving my husband and moving further...when I began to fully blossom...any man I dated was acutely aware of who I am. There were no "I kinda like to tie men up sometimes" it was always: What you need to know about me is this: I am a Dominant woman, I want and need to live a BDSM lifestyle, I occassionally enjoy bottoming and if you want me you have to want this too. If you don't want this life you must be ok with me still being part. And can I tell some funny stories....the poor guy who watched me get suspended and beaten with canes....he turned so green and nearly puked on the dungeon floor. The guys who said "no problem" I took to public dungeons and showed them the life. No gentle tip toe in...I pushed them head first into the pool. These men went one way or the other...either they couldn't take me dominating another man or they couldn't stand to see me bottom. The point is I learned in the worst possible way, that if I want this then I have to make sure the person in my life was truly accepting and there was no backing up.

Today, my 4th, yes 4th husband and I are happier than I could imagine. He was baptized by fire into the life just like the others and he was open minded and accepting. We waited about a year before we engaged at all with others, just to solidify our union but I always knew he wasn't going to renig. He didn't. Even though my wonderful husband "watches the UMs" while I go do my thing else where, he loves me and I love him. He trusts me not to break boundaries and I don't break boundaries.....dear heavens....my husband gives me the world...why in the hell would I want to do something against the rules he and I created????? I wouldn't. He trusts me, I trust him and I've now been able to find a balance in my life that makes it right. *S* My husband says he knows three things in life that are ultimate truths (I hope I quote this right)...."1. That we all die, 2. that everything we put out in to the universe comes back to us, and 3. Donna loves me" He's right. I have no reason to hide or lie to him.

I personally suggest that anyone who wants to have daliances think twice. Think about how really great life can be when you are honest. Be honest and seek honesty. If your partner can't/doesn't/won't provide what you need, chances are you aren't providing what your partner needs either...and you both are hiding and sneaking and lying....to what greater benefit? Get counciling, work through it or move on. Everyone will be happier.

Can you believe that was the abbreviated version? *S*

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 11:52:40 AM

velvetears

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Every situation is different. i know this statement won't be popular but a lot of people who get cheated on had it coming. Many who have been cheated on didn't have it coming. You can judge others all you want it won't change the fact that people are going to do what they need to do to be happy - hell even sometimes to survive. There are so many shades of gray to this you couldn't even count them all.

[edited to add this thought]

Thank you earthycouple for sharing your story, i am glad you are happy now and away from that abuser - you're just one of the many shades of grey i am talking about and i am sure there are many more out there that share similar stories.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 5/23/2007 11:56:11 AM >

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 12:07:21 PM

Argentopal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Argentopal
I have had the experience of having a very casual play only - no sex - relationship with a married male submissive.

I am not flaming here just wondering what type of "play" you are referring to that was non sexual.

I would also like to say that the difference between your situation and the one the OP described is that in your situation all parties seemed to be informed and consented.

non sexual play - this is almost in need of a new thread and I do not intend to hijack this one, but will try and answer this.
remember - everyone has their own definitons and feelings. A decade ago I would have argued that ALL bdsm play was sexual. But, for ME, I have learned that not all bdsm activity is about sex. Again I stress - for ME, ymmv etc. I have topped several others and I know that some of them have actually had orgasms from what I did to them. However I never touched their genitals, nor did I say anything sexual to them (do I sound like Bill Clinton yet??). Seriously, nothing I did would have been deemed as sexual in the vanilla world. For example, who would say that merely pinching the tip of a certain toe was a sexual act? Who would say that exerting a pinpoint of pressure at an exact spot under the nose was sexual? I could do both things with both parties fully clothed on a public bus. Add to that the fact that while I enjoy topping someone and use pain, fear, anticipation, sensual ... and I love the responses I get and the power I feel, there is absolutely NO sexual feeling for me. So I guess I am not a "real" sadist! But there is enjoyment in seeing and hearing their reactions. We can argue semantics all day and all night and the way someone else feels will not be the same way I feel. For me, when I top someone in a casual play situation there is absolutely no sexual response for me and I am not (usually - unless there is that agrement between me and the particular partner) trying to ellicit a sexual response from them. There really are people for whom it is about power exchange, service and submission and not about sex.

and I know my situation was not the same as "cheating" but it does fall into a close catagory about being married and needing more. I did have to really think hard abot my views on such things before I began a relationship with the gentleman and had to really think about whether I trusted his honesty or not. Inwould rather have the wife be totally OK and even meet her so she could see I was no threat to her marriage. but, not many will go that far. Wouldn't it be an amazing world if jealousy, insecurities, and all that were just not factors?

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic!
MsOpal

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 12:20:25 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

There are several posts on ”cheating” here. Most sound like they are coming from a raw wound.

I’d like to create a thread on WHY people find themselves in extra marital relationships.

Take the premise that you are happily married. You come across the D/s world. You present this concept to your spouse. They try it and find it not their thing or they just totally discount it and won’t even consider it.

Everything is perfect except this one aspect of your new found interest. The spouse is happy; the kids are well taken care of all is in order.

You have no intention of wanting another spouse or leaving but, dammit, you want to check it all out! So you meet someone who in the same situation. Both are married, both honorable in all they meet in their obligations but both have this one nagging interest. The situation would not be any threat to the respective relationships.

This thought was provoked by a conversation with a long time acquaintance that I had not spoken to in 10 years. Way back then, he was looking for a Mistress. He’d go to a pro and drop $700 bucks an afternoon with none of the depth he hoped for. He told me that he had been serving a gay master for the past few years and was very content. He is a straight male and enjoyed the “humiliation” of it and, face it, the male Gay community has it allover us with intensity when it comes to sceening and this is what he craved. He wasn’t looking to “fall in love” with a dominant. His situation guarantees this. He considers him just a close friend and not a lover. Does his wife need to know?

So what do you do? Run to your spouse and tell them you have to do this and they will just have to accept it thus causing them unnecessary angst or do you explore it all with your new found ally, in the same situation, with discretion?

As an individual, do you give up all rights to your privacy in a relationship if it is something that is no threat to them?

I did it. I cheated and convinced myself of all those things. And you know what? I knew I was lying to myself even as I justified my actions to myself. Can't go back and fix it, all I can do is just understand those that do but point out to them the invalidity of the lie to themselves.

And, like Ravyn's muse, I go along with the whole consent idea. We are big on consent and communication and negotiation. If we are going to do that with a D/s partner, should we not learn ...or at least give it a shot...in our "came-before" relationship?

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 12:42:43 PM

RavenMuse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
Every situation is different. i know this statement won't be popular but a lot of people who get cheated on had it coming.

NOBODY "Has it coming" when it comes to cheating... if they are that bad then what they "Have coming" is the ending of the relationship. They "Had it coming" is just ANOTHER excuse weak willed lying people use to attempt to justify their crappy actions.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 1:05:58 PM

SanDieganMichael

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      In my experience:
     Cheating is defined differently for each relationship. Openness and communication are the only true constants that should be adhered to for a relationship to work. “Don’t ask, Don’t tell;” policies seldom work. Those who try to live with the denial of “Don’t ask, Don’t tell;” often find a growing passion with others hidden by refusal to communicate.
     Every relationship is different. Every one. I have not had a single relationship that was the same, even with one night stands, and one time “scene” sessions. Each time two new people interact they change themselves, either positively or negatively. No one set of rules would work or it would still be the perceived 1950’s (which weren’t at all what they tried to be).

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 2:35:55 PM

MagiksSlave

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Im confused is the Op justafieing cheating???

Magik's slave

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 2:47:13 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Argentopal
non sexual play - this is almost in need of a new thread and I do not intend to hijack this one, but will try and answer this.
remember - everyone has their own definitons and feelings. A decade ago I would have argued that ALL bdsm play was sexual. But, for ME, I have learned that not all bdsm activity is about sex. Again I stress - for ME, ymmv etc.

Thank you for replying and yes I agree it could very well use it's own thread.

It was interesting to note that you qualified several times that it was not sexual for "you". But what about your partner? Is it not sexual if your partner is getting something sexually from the play? It seems to me that this may be a way that many people justify (not saying that is what YOU are doing) an affair in this lifestyle.

Many people will say...but it was online only. OK...but online they talked and interacted sexually. Or they may say, we played physically but I did not touch their genitals...OK...but the "touchee" was cumming all over the place. I think that MOST play in the context of bdsm IS sexual in one way or another.

I know I may be walking a hardline here and many may disagree, but if it is happening without the consent and knowledge of all parties I still see it as cheating. Bill Clinton tried to convince a nation that getting blow jobs outside of his marriage without his wife's knowledge weren't sexual and weren't cheating too. However, I'm not standing in the "buying into it" line on that one either.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 2:47:50 PM

ennaozzie

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If you are happy in all other aspects of your marrage, unless the marrage is a open one, you are cheating no grey area there.

beanie

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 2:48:21 PM

Invictus754

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam
I’d like to create a thread on WHY people find themselves in extra marital relationships.

It is because the "Moral Majority" has dictated that all relationships must be one man and one woman or it is "unnatural" If society could be changed so multiple partners or linear marriages were allowed, then there would be no "cheating". The peer pressure to be just like everyone else is crappy.

So, until society changes, he should do it on the sly - and yes - cheat.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 2:51:26 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754
It is because the "Moral Majority" has dictated that all relationships must be one man and one woman or it is "unnatural" If society could be changed so multiple partners or linear marriages were allowed, then there would be no "cheating". The peer pressure to be just like everyone else is crappy.

So, until society changes, he should do it on the sly - and yes - cheat.

OK, this is interesting. We are going to use society as the scapegoat to take the blame for our personal infidelities?

That's BS.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 2:52:38 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754
It is because the "Moral Majority" has dictated that all relationships must be one man and one woman or it is "unnatural" If society could be changed so multiple partners or linear marriages were allowed, then there would be no "cheating". The peer pressure to be just like everyone else is crappy.

So, until society changes, he should do it on the sly - and yes - cheat.

Except for the fact that cheating occurs quite regularly in multi-partner relationships as well.

Societal pressure certainly plays its part, but it's really communication and personal security issues which need to be addressed.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 3:00:53 PM

LightHeartedMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Im confused is the Op justafieing cheating???

Magik's slave

No, sweety~ just opening a discussion as to "why" it happens. But if it's a black or white issue to you because you have been cheated on and still harbor an embitterment of a nasty divorce or something, it might be best you sit this discussion out.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 3:15:59 PM

LadyPact

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It depends if being a "threat to them" has anything to do with their view of honesty within their relationship. If the whole thing is as innocent (the example you gave of the gay Master/no sex involved) why wouldn't the SO have every right to accompany the spouse and see for themselves? If there's nothing to hide, then they should be welcome to observe. If it is completely innocent, there should be no reason to lie about it.

The problem with this is, that usually isn't the case. It goes back to the issue of deception. Most people are hurt by being lied to, so in a sense, that is where the damage comes from, not just the acts people are engaging in.

I am married. My husband is fully aware of My activities. He's not left behind wondering what is going on. It works better than having to hide half of My life from him.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 3:28:47 PM

Viridana

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To me, lying and secretly going behind someones back, even when "just exploring" means that one or more individuals are not able to give consent to what's happening. And having nonconsensual play happen is really against the basic theme of bdsm in general.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 3:32:09 PM

earthycouple

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For the sake of discussion:

Cheating is sexual intercourse
Cheating is intimate kissing
Cheating is intimate conversation
Cheating is intimate touching

There are people who feel that one or all or some or none of these things constitute cheating. The situation arises when we have to define these things.

For my home as it is right now the only thing on this list that is cheating is sexual intercourse and that even has a caveat. Intercourse for some may be the use of toys, fingers or anally. In my house intercourse is cock in pussy. Period. That would be cheating on either the part of me or my husband.

I just know someone right now is say "oh hell no" cheating is any kind of intercourse. Well that's your household. Not mine.

As for the others in my mock list....none are cheating in my home. Let's look at intimate kissing....what does that mean? Does it mean tounge kissing? Does it mean kissing the body?
It can be both. A kiss becomes intimate for me the minute I start to feel all mushy...and that can easily come from having my neck and ear kissed.

Intimate conversation...what is that? If your sig other is sitting closely, lightly touching, and sharing private moments of conversation with another is that cheating? Maybe if you feel threatened by it and you have already agreed that is not acceptable behavior.

And intimate touching....is that hands under clothing? or is it hands on gentitals? Up to you. Up to your definitions. The point is for those of you who feel there is no gray...that is ONLY if you and your partner have clearly define what is indeed cheating for you. And I mean clearly.

For a "typical vanilla couple" I hate saying that but you all know what I mean....cheating is generally defined as sex with another... for us on these boards, somehow part of an alternative lifestyle we may have our own ideas about what cheating is. There is no wrong or right answer as long as the people involved have clear expectations.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 3:37:45 PM

LightHeartedMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

It depends if being a "threat to them" has anything to do with their view of honesty within their relationship. If the whole thing is as innocent (the example you gave of the gay Master/no sex involved) why wouldn't the SO have every right to accompany the spouse and see for themselves?

If there's nothing to hide, then they should be welcome to observe. If it is completely innocent, there should be no reason to lie about it.

If said spouse wanted to, he'd probably love it. In this case, there is absolutely no interest. His situation was not for lack of discussing it with his wife.

The problem with this is, that usually isn't the case. It goes back to the issue of deception. Most people are hurt by being lied to, so in a sense, that is where the damage comes from, not just the acts people are engaging in.

I am married. My husband is fully aware of My activities. He's not left behind wondering what is going on. It works better than having to hide half of My life from him.

But guys are like that, don't cha think :)? Are you primarily sessoning a female or a male?

In the reference case, I feel I would take it far better if I discovered that my husband took a male master to scratch his itch than a female one. If I told him I had no interest in it, it would be for sure it would not kill his desire. It would be up to him to choose a situation that would not interfere with his family or his obligations to same.

Let's put a different spin on it: Let's say one has been unable to have sex with their partner due to a physical condition or just plain lost interest. The husband has promised to love, care for her until death. The next two situations are coming from a man who does still love his wife but life has taken a change of course
Does he go to her and say "I'm really sorry this has happened to you, but I'm still needing sex. Is it ok if I go out and find some?" Or does he continue to care for her in every other way and take care of his needs in a covert fashion? After all, she knows she can't take care of HIS needs and feels badly anyhow, why rub salt in the wound?

Which is more loving in this case? Suffering silence or discretion?

My bottom line would be I would want the man taking care of me to be happy.

< Message edited by LightHeartedMaam -- 5/23/2007 3:38:09 PM >

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 3:41:43 PM

Viridana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

Which is more loving in this case? Suffering silence or discretion?

How about option number three. Confrontation and then marriage councelling if necessary.

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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 3:42:57 PM

slaveaurora

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Let's not forget emotional cheating.

I guess maybe I am old school here, but to me cheating is anything done without the SO's consent.
If you're sitting online having an intimate sex chat with someone, in my world that is cheating if the SO does not know about it.   You are taking something intimate away from the other.

It is possible that I am just strange.    lol

a~

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