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RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 7:35:44 AM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Velvet the problem is that you're using someone else's issues as an excuse to forgive "your" own wrong behavior. It doesn't work like that, at least not in this scenario.

For the original op no - in that case it's jut dishonesty and cheating. But when a relationship dissolves on its own and all you have left really is a piece of paper between you - what's the point? In the scenario i gave obviously the woman will be getting a divorce (or hopefully anyway, many stay god only knows why) so in my estimation all bets are off and everyting is null and void anyway - so IMO it's really not cheating and if the abuser has a problem with it - it's his, he caused it let him deal with what he had coming - the loss of his sig other.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 5/24/2007 7:39:32 AM >

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 81

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 7:39:52 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

But no one has it 'coming' velvet - two wrongs do not make a right.

If an abused woman meets someone who she suddenly finds she is falling in love with then she should just leave the relationship and be up front with her abuser. (Actually she should leave before she gets invovled but thats another thread) - not use the abuse as an excuse to lie and destroy her own integrity and respect.

Peace

I agree. An abused woman should get herself out of the situation regardless of meeting someone new. She shouldn't use that new person as a means of escape. Too often when this happens, once the air is clear she finds herself in another mess because she realizes the "appeal" of the new person was really just about them being their ticket out.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 82

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 7:50:51 AM

MrDiscipline44

Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline

Velvet, you tried to shore-up an excuse that is inherently unstable. It doesn't work. And then tried to use that excuse as a justification to do something wrong. That also doesn't work. At least not for me. If you cheated on someone that abused you, you're wrong for doing it and for me, can in no way justify it. Ends does not justify means.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 83

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:02:49 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
This thread really isn't about abusers - and yes obviously she needs to get out ASAP. i gave an example of a type of person who in MY OPINION would be the kind that had it coming - there are times in life that when a chance comes along you take it - to stand by an oath that means nothing to the other person is absurd in my opinion.

And you are still WRONG. The correct thing to do in that situation is to get the hell out, not cheat, so he can't 'have it coming' in regard to cheating, cheating is STILL the wrong thing to do in that situation... so really you are just blowing smoke because you took a position you can't defend.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 84

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:03:58 AM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

But no one has it 'coming' velvet - two wrongs do not make a right.

If an abused woman meets someone who she suddenly finds she is falling in love with then she should just leave the relationship and be up front with her abuser. (Actually she should leave before she gets invovled but thats another thread) - not use the abuse as an excuse to lie and destroy her own integrity and respect.

Peace

I agree. An abused woman should get herself out of the situation regardless of meeting someone new. She shouldn't use that new person as a means of escape. Too often when this happens, once the air is clear she finds herself in another mess because she realizes the "appeal" of the new person was really just about them being their ticket out.

i never said she should erin - MrDiscipline made that assumption.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 85

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:06:37 AM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
This thread really isn't about abusers - and yes obviously she needs to get out ASAP. i gave an example of a type of person who in MY OPINION would be the kind that had it coming - there are times in life that when a chance comes along you take it - to stand by an oath that means nothing to the other person is absurd in my opinion.

And you are still WRONG. The correct thing to do in that situation is to get the hell out, not cheat, so he can't 'have it coming' in regard to cheating, cheating is STILL the wrong thing to do in that situation... so really you are just blowing smoke because you took a position you can't defend.

i don't have to defend anything this is MY OPINION and if yours differ so be it - an opinion cannot be wrong - maybe to YOU it is but it doesn't change how i view things.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 86

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:08:42 AM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

Velvet, you tried to shore-up an excuse that is inherently unstable. It doesn't work. And then tried to use that excuse as a justification to do something wrong. That also doesn't work. At least not for me. If you cheated on someone that abused you, you're wrong for doing it and for me, can in no way justify it. Ends does not justify means.

We are of different minds - if you want to stay loyal to an asshole by all means do so. It's not wrong to put yourself frst in a situation where your sig other puts you lower than last.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 87

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:13:27 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
This thread really isn't about abusers - and yes obviously she needs to get out ASAP. i gave an example of a type of person who in MY OPINION would be the kind that had it coming - there are times in life that when a chance comes along you take it - to stand by an oath that means nothing to the other person is absurd in my opinion.

And you are still WRONG. The correct thing to do in that situation is to get the hell out, not cheat, so he can't 'have it coming' in regard to cheating, cheating is STILL the wrong thing to do in that situation... so really you are just blowing smoke because you took a position you can't defend.

i don't have to defend anything this is MY OPINION and if yours differ so be it - an opinion cannot be wrong - maybe to YOU it is but it doesn't change how i view things.

An opinion can be so distanced from logic to be untenable.... and you tied yourself in a rather ilogical knot trying to defend cheating.... by using an example that even by your own admittion cheating was STILL the WRONG thing to do.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 88

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:19:21 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

But no one has it 'coming' velvet - two wrongs do not make a right.

If an abused woman meets someone who she suddenly finds she is falling in love with then she should just leave the relationship and be up front with her abuser. (Actually she should leave before she gets invovled but thats another thread) - not use the abuse as an excuse to lie and destroy her own integrity and respect.

Peace

I agree. An abused woman should get herself out of the situation regardless of meeting someone new. She shouldn't use that new person as a means of escape. Too often when this happens, once the air is clear she finds herself in another mess because she realizes the "appeal" of the new person was really just about them being their ticket out.

i never said she should erin - MrDiscipline made that assumption.

But you did say that....just in different words:

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
It doesn't make the situation better - but anything she does to help herself out of that kind of situation, any support she can get, any kind of help, she deserves.

You said that to justify cheating....it's ok to cheat if it will help her out of that kind of situation, get her support or help. It's ok because she deserves it. So therefore she deserves to be able to use that person as a means of escape.

You also said that he deserves it. No one deserves it. If you (generic you) don't like the situation you're in...get out of it. But don't do something wrong and try to justify it's "rightness" by saying that they deserve it because of their trespasses. That's not justified....what that's called is revenge.

You have several people on here trying to get you to see the error in what you are trying to say, but instead of taking the time to listen and analyze it you are just steadily defending your flawed position.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 89

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:28:15 AM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

An opinion can be so distanced from logic to be untenable.... and you tied yourself in a rather ilogical knot trying to defend cheating.... by using an example that even by your own admittion cheating was STILL the WRONG thing to do.

Again i will repeat that's your opinion, don't disresepct mine by telling me i am wrong. i haven't disrespected you, give me the same regard.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 90

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:30:15 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

Sweetie, you may as well hold the opinion that the Earth is flat and the moon made of green cheese... both are are logical as your stance on cheating. I don't have to agree with someones opinion to respect it... but it will only GET that respect if it is LOGICAL!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 91

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:38:02 AM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

But you did say that....just in different words:

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
It doesn't make the situation better - but anything she does to help herself out of that kind of situation, any support she can get, any kind of help, she deserves.

You said that to justify cheating....it's ok to cheat if it will help her out of that kind of situation, get her support or help. It's ok because she deserves it. So therefore she deserves to be able to use that person as a means of escape.

You also said that he deserves it. No one deserves it. If you (generic you) don't like the situation you're in...get out of it. But don't do something wrong and try to justify it's "rightness" by saying that they deserve it because of their trespasses. That's not justified....what that's called is revenge.

You have several people on here trying to get you to see the error in what you are trying to say, but instead of taking the time to listen and analyze it you are just steadily defending your flawed position.

i by no means endorse "using people" especially creating a relationship with someone as a means to escape another relationship - how the words are interpreted i cannot help, i can only correct the wrong assumptions made. Perhaps the way i worded it wasn't the best but that was not what i intended to be gleaned from what i said. Leaving should be her first priority, of course it should.

And yes IN MY OPINION the abuser deserves any outcome that comes out of his abusing his wife/gf/sub etc. If the woman found someone, by chance not as a set up to gain help, good for her - i do not consider it cheating - what is she trying to hold onto? To me staying true because a formal divorce is not completed is ludicrous. If you feel differently and would stay loyal and true to the end - kudos to you - but don't tell me i am wrong in how i see things or how i would handle things because for me they are right - might not be right to you but who is anyone to tell me how i view things is wrong - TO YOU they are, which is fine.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 92

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:38:40 AM

fadedlace

Posts: 137
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

Thinking of my former friend who was abused by her husband and turned to someone else on the side without his knowledge (she thought they were being OH SO CAREFUL)...had her husband found out, he'd have escalated the abuse; however, he followed her one day and in the process of shooting her lover to death, was himself shot to death. Another friend many years ago was shot and killed by an irate jealous husband of his married lover. It happens. A lot more often than you might think.

Years ago, I was married to my first Master and he'd passed the emotional and verbal abuse and had begun physically abusing me *before I met this other abused woman.* I briefly considered cheating before I could take my UM and escape on my own (which I ultimately did of my own volition with nobody's help)...but the wrongness of lying and cheating wouldn't even out what he was doing to me, and why drag someone else into your own shit and put yourself and the other at MORE risk? In that scenario, either get yourself OUT and then play/have sex/get your needs meet when you're unattached and available, or live or die for your choices.

Morality aside, it's only good judgement not to piss off a violent person.

Just my own experience and opinion, so it's inarguable. *Following your reasoning*

< Message edited by fadedlace -- 5/24/2007 8:42:43 AM >

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 93

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:52:05 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

velvet, it's obvious that regardless of anything that anyone and everyone else has to say on the subject, you are going to choose to only try to understand it through the narrow and illogical view that is your own. I can only offer you a different view, if you choose not to even try to take a glimpse there is nothing more I can offer.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 94

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:52:49 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Erin - this is what you need to use as reply:

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 95

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 8:55:24 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Erin - this is what you need to use as reply:

Katy, as I have seen the ferocity with which velvet will cling to her tunnel vision on other threads....it is safe to assume I would probably get farther with that wall.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 96

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 9:00:20 AM

lateralist1

Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

In England there is very little support for abused women.
Often they come from families where abuse it rife so to help maybe putting their own safety at risk.
Physical and sexual abuse is often seen as the victim's fault.
These are the facts.
The other man will perhaps turn out to be an abuser as well.
But he might not.

(in reply to fadedlace)

Post #: 97

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 9:18:14 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

In England there is very little support for abused women.

Speak for stoke, not for England.... plenty of spousal abuse support to be had for those women based here in London.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to lateralist1)

Post #: 98

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 9:22:49 AM

LightHeartedMaam

Posts: 296
Joined: 5/12/2007
Status: offline

~fast reply~

Are we back on topic yet?

_____________________________

Now that I'm older, I thought it was great that it seems I have more patience. Turns out, that I just don't give a sh*t.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 99

RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 9:25:47 AM

MrDiscipline44

Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline

We've always been on topic. Cheating, despite whatever justifications you try to use for it, is wrong. Please try to keep up, dear.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to LightHeartedMaam)

Post #: 100

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