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RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 10:11:29 PM   
Elorin


Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		~using fast reply~
There are so many reasons for someone to seek BDSM outside of their committed relationship. I have empathy for some of them, and for others I don't. I've set up guidelines for myself that don't quite satisfy me, but I follow them until I have guidelines that I feel more comfortable with.

Since BDSM is my passion and I practice it personally, consider BDSM to be a lifestyle for myself, but am also a pro Domme, my guidelines are thus: If I meet you at a play party and all we are doing is S&M play or bondage, I will not ask if you are married or not. The scene happens, goes as far as it goes, and that is that. If friendship develops and/or contact outside of play parties develops, then I will ask about marital status and such. If you are married and your spouse says it is ok for you to practice BDSM outside of the marriage, I want to meet him or her and hear from them that it is truly ok with them. If they don't want ongoing details, that's fine, but if they are not willing to at least meet in person or talk on the phone, I will not take you as a personal submissive. I will, however, if you are interested accept you as a professional client.

Like I said, I'm not totally happy about my guidelines. Sometimes I feel bad when I find out later that a play partner at a party is married and the spouse doesn't know. I don't like married men feeling like I am "charging" them for having discovered kink after they were married. I haven't found any better guidelines.

Random comments from the thread:
I would be pretty much shocked to find out that my hypothetical straight husband was giving head to a gay male and felt it was non-sexual. For me, oral sex is sexual.

I believe that earthycouple made a very good point about defining things. There is a thread here somewhere where I talked about defining sex...which actions are sex and which are not? Is cheating "sex" with others without your knowledge, or does it include emotion? If I say "cheating is having sex with someone without asking me first" and you think in your head "Ok, I won't put my cock in her pussy"...but you put it in her ass, her mouth, her hands, and between her tits, there is a huge disconnect. Why? Because for me, using her body to create friction so you can cum is sex. So it doesn't matter if it's a tit job, blow job, hand job, or anal fuck, it's still sex - to me.

As for the situation where someone gets so ill that they cannot provide sexual satisfaction, I think there are more options than were listed. Now, this is coming from me who is a poly person, but I would prefer to have a relationship with openness and honesty, in which the ill individual does not have to feel guilty for not being able to provide sex, in which the ill individual can know that I am seeking relationships with people he/she would respect (as opposed to one night stands found in singles bars) for sexual fulfillment, in which that person can choose to meet my sexual partners or not, in which the ill individual can have veto power over potential partners. I would rather be able to hold my darling and tell her that if she can't fuck me it doesn't matter, or give her the remote to a fucking machine, dildo, vibrator, or combination and help me get my sexual needs met, or whatever our relationship needs, than have a relationship with someone who was beating herself up because I can't fuck her pussy but didn't tell me about it b/c she was ashamed - while being fearful that I would be seeking outside relief but not being willing to ask outright if it was going on, and not trusting me enough to KNOW the answer before asking the question.

So...I hope the run on sentences made sense.

My relationship with M was extramarital for both of us when it started. For me, I had been separated for more than 2 years and my divorce had been filed over a year ago but I was going through a custody battle. He was happily married when we met. The entanglements we ran into between then and now (which sees both of us divorced and primary partners to one another) could fill a book. We went through frustration, being discrete so that our relationship wasn't dragged into court, passive aggressive on the part of his ex-wife, on the part of my ex-boyfriend/roommate, being non-sexual but having D/s, being sexual but not penetrative, a lot of different things. It wasn't easy. Having been there myself, I know many different ways extra marital relationships can form, and not all of them include intentional dishonesty.

Anyway, I want to say thank you for a thread on extra-marital relationships that is not automatically "cheating is always bad, no matter what."

~E

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: The Need to Know - 5/23/2007 10:38:15 PM   
JpnsTigerrrlily


Posts: 161
Joined: 8/13/2006
Status: offline 		I believe everyone has to live with their own decisions...and we make them with the consent of friends, family or significant others or without.

For myself, I refuse to be anyone's secret. I have zero problem playing with others that have a primary relationship. However I will not play with anyone whose partner does not know about me. I also need to know the limits the other partner has (from their own mouth) so I am aware of the boundaries and do not cross them. If the person I am playing with, at any time, asks that something be kept from their partner (in regards to our play) then I stop playing with them. Period. If they're lying to their partner, how can I trust them to be honest with me?

In regards to me  hiding who I am or what I need. I'd much rather be single than have to pretend/lie with a partner, about anything. If I can't talk and be completely honest with another about what I need, then I should really re-think if I want to be in this relationship. I don't have the added complications that can arise with marriage or children, but I don't really see myself changing my views on this particular point.

Just my two cents.

(in reply to Elorin)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 12:52:30 AM   
littlesarbonn


Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam


Take the premise that you are happily married. You come across the D/s world.  You present this concept to your spouse.  They try it and find it not their thing or they just totally discount it and won’t even consider it. 
                                                                                                        
Everything is perfect except this one aspect of your new found interest.  The spouse is happy; the kids are well taken care of all is in order.




I would spend the rest of my life making my wife as happy as possible. I obviously would have married her because I loved her. However, already knowing what kind of person I am right now, D/s would not be a new found interest for me, so there's a MASSIVE possibility that she would know about this long before we got to the possibility of marriage, and if she discounted this desire off the start and won't even consider it, chances are pretty good that we didn't get married.


_____________________________

<---- FYI, this picture looks JUST like me


http://www.littlesarbonn.com/Stickman/Stickman.htm
The Adventures of Stickman and the Unemployed Lego Spaceman

(in reply to LightHeartedMaam)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 5:25:43 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
It doesn't make the situation better - but anything she does to help herself out of that kind of situation, any support she can get, any kind of help, she deserves. He doesn't deserev any kind of loyalty, respect, consideration, fidelity in my opinion once he turns into an abuser all bets are off - his call by deciding to abuse her in the first place.  And its not being petty or vindictive it's called surviving.
So you're saying she should use her pussy to entrap a man to get her out of a situation she's in? Horseshit, velvet. Thats what support groups are for, not your pussy. It's not about fidelity, loyal or respect to your "abuser". It's about personal integrity and self-respect. But I guess when you call yourself a "survivor" you don't need those things.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 5:32:52 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44
Thats what support groups are for, not your pussy.


OMG...thank you, you just made my week!!!

I'd also like to add that I am a survivor....and I am one BECAUSE I have personal integrity and self respect. (and I don't use my pussy as a weapon to get even and right past wrongs, to entrap men or to get me the things in life I want).

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 5:48:57 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
Saying nobody is pretty absolutist. What about the guy who beats the shit out of his wife till she can barely think straight - yes i think he had that coming and plenty more! 


NOBODY means NOBODY... what that sort of fuckwit deserves is her getting the hell OUT... not giving him another reason to beat her shitless when he finds out about the cheating.... you are so het up on DEFENDING cheating, that you lack the perception that if she is cheating ... she is still THERE to get the crap beaten out of her!!!


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 5:50:44 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44
So you're saying she should use her pussy to entrap a man to get her out of a situation she's in? Horseshit, velvet. Thats what support groups are for, not your pussy.

OK Mr D... that was the funniest damn comment I've read on these boards in the last week. Even better because You are spot on with it too!


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 5:58:58 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

It depends if being a "threat to them" has anything to do with their view of honesty within their relationship.  If the whole thing is as innocent (the example you gave of the gay Master/no sex involved) why wouldn't the SO have every right to accompany the spouse and see for themselves? 
 
 If there's nothing to hide, then they should be welcome to observe.  If it is completely innocent, there should be no reason to lie about it.
 
If said spouse wanted to, he'd probably love it.  In this case, there is absolutely no interest.  His situation was not for lack of discussing it with his wife.  
 
The problem with this is, that usually isn't the case.  It goes back to the issue of deception.  Most people are hurt by being lied to, so in a sense, that is where the damage comes from, not just the acts people are engaging in. 
 
I am married.  My husband is fully aware of My activities.  He's not left behind wondering what is going on.  It works better than having to hide half of My life from him.
 
 But guys are like that, don't cha think :)?  Are you primarily sessoning a female or a male?
 
(My first two toned color post <laughs>)
 
As I have said many times on the boards, I only take on boys.  It's not like he gets the advantage of watching Me with a female submissive.  He's fully involved in talks/chats/activities if he wishes.  I leave the archiving on My messenger so he can keep up with progress if he isn't sitting here with Me.  It is completely open.  I answer any and all questions that My husband might have.


In the reference case, I feel I would take it far better if I discovered that my husband took a male master to scratch his itch than a female one.  If I told him I had no interest in it, it would be for sure it would not kill his desire.  It would be up to him to choose a situation that would not interfere with his family or his obligations to same. 

Oh, My husband does have input.  He'll give Me his opinions on different matters in relation to certain things.

Let's put a different spin on it:  Let's say one has been unable to have sex with their partner due to a physical condition or just plain lost interest.  The husband has promised to love, care for her until death.  The next two situations are coming from a man who does still love his wife but life has taken a change of course
Does he go to her and say "I'm really sorry this has happened to you, but I'm still needing sex.  Is it ok if I go out and find some?" 

Actually, I don't see a thing wrong with the question.  It's an honest and up front approach that many lack the courage to have. 

Or does he continue to care for her in every other way and take care of his needs in a covert fashion?  After all, she knows she can't take care of HIS needs and feels badly anyhow, why rub salt in the wound?

How is it rubbing salt in the wound?  If the situation was as grave as all of that, the signifigant other would already be aware of it.  What about how hurt she is going to be when that situation already exists, and on top of it, he lied to her? 

Which is more loving in this case?  Suffering silence or discretion?

That third choice of honesty is still available.

My bottom line would be I would want the man taking care of me to be happy.

That I can understand, but in another aspect, are most people more content with themselves why lying/hiding or telling the truth?  I would like to think that most people have a conscious and would have some negative effects from having dishonesty in their words and actions. 


(in reply to LightHeartedMaam)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 6:21:57 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline 		It was my pleasure, erin, and I happily stand corrected.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 6:35:09 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

It was my pleasure, erin, and I happily stand corrected.


I gotta tell you, my ex used to tell this joke that your "pussy" response reminded me of.

Do you know why pussies are covered with hair?
Well, to hide the hook of course.

On a serious note though, you were dead on. Lots of women DO use their pussies to get them support, revenge or a new roof over their head with a nice car in the driveway.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 6:49:36 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

This is MY definition of cheating: 

Any activity engaged in to willfully secure the affections of another with the intent of abandoning your present partner. 

Then that should have been made clear in the first place, because most people( ie the majority) define cheating as lying to someone or to yourself, or willfully witholding information.  That can be anything from having an affair, to masturbating in the bathroom.
 
Nowhere in your above statement does it say there is any lying or misrepresentation of the facts.  That isn't cheating, it is simply a situation that occurs with or without cheating.
 
Peace


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to LightHeartedMaam)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 7:03:10 AM   
LightHeartedMaam


Posts: 296
Joined: 5/12/2007
Status: offline 		Now with all the types of activities that can be interpreted as"sex", we need to add one more:

If the sex is REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLY bad~
                                                                     is it still sex? (posted as comic relief here)

_____________________________

Now that I'm older, I thought it was great that it seems I have more patience. Turns out, that I just don't give a sh*t.

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 7:14:17 AM   
Bella1965


Posts: 285
Joined: 12/12/2006
From: NYC
Status: offline 		G'morning all:


(Fast Reply)

If you have your spouse's knowledge and consent, then I believe you should explore this new found realm. If you're going to lie and cheat behind your spouse's back, then you deserve whatever ills befall you. There's no justification for compromising ethics and integrity simply to fulfill a fantasy. Gender of the other party is not an issue. What the point is; how you comport yourself given this situation. There are no grey areas. Cheating is cheating, no matter how nicely you sugarcoat it.


Stay safe, place nice & share your toys w/ others...





Bella

_____________________________

Life shouldn't be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly shouting..."Wow! What a ride!

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 7:20:29 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

This is MY definition of cheating: 

Any activity engaged in to willfully secure the affections of another with the intent of abandoning your present partner. 

Then that should have been made clear in the first place, because most people( ie the majority) define cheating as lying to someone or to yourself, or willfully witholding information.  That can be anything from having an affair, to masturbating in the bathroom.
 
Nowhere in your above statement does it say there is any lying or misrepresentation of the facts.  That isn't cheating, it is simply a situation that occurs with or without cheating.
 
Peace



Ok, but eventually, those little questions of "Where are you going?" or "What did you do today?" or "Who were you talking to?" are bound to come up.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 7:23:44 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
It doesn't make the situation better - but anything she does to help herself out of that kind of situation, any support she can get, any kind of help, she deserves. He doesn't deserev any kind of loyalty, respect, consideration, fidelity in my opinion once he turns into an abuser all bets are off - his call by deciding to abuse her in the first place.  And its not being petty or vindictive it's called surviving.
So you're saying she should use her pussy to entrap a man to get her out of a situation she's in? Horseshit, velvet. Thats what support groups are for, not your pussy. It's not about fidelity, loyal or respect to your "abuser". It's about personal integrity and self-respect. But I guess when you call yourself a "survivor" you don't need those things.


You really like to see the worste in a scenario.  i had no such intention in mind when i gave that scenario and yes i agree she needs support groups and any other kind of help she can get, but if she happened to meet someone who she liked and who liked her and she had a chance at a wonderful life with this person,  to stay loyal to an asshole abuser just because of an oath they BOTH took by the way, doesn't make any sense to me.  How did he hold up his end of the bargain - maybe in the "till death do us part" and he was aiming at making that come to pass??

< Message edited by velvetears -- 5/24/2007 7:26:01 AM >

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Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 7:25:36 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Velvet the problem is that you're using someone else's issues as an excuse to forgive "your" own wrong behavior.  It doesn't work like that, at least not in this scenario.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 7:27:25 AM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		As a Dominant I always take the course which will be least destructive to my relationships.
So I am open about who I am.
How can anyone respect me if I'm not?
And how can I have a relationship without respect?
However it is not my responsibility to make moral decisions for other people.
Why should sex be more intimate than playing in a club. Or going to a pro Domme.
And surely a kiss that you have longed for for twenty years is more like cheating than either of the above.
There can never be a common morality.
If I hadn't 'come out' to the people close to me I would have killed myself eventually.
And what would that have done to them?
We do what we have to do.
Sometimes we regret it.
That's life we live it the best way we know how.


(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 7:29:55 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
Saying nobody is pretty absolutist. What about the guy who beats the shit out of his wife till she can barely think straight - yes i think he had that coming and plenty more! 


NOBODY means NOBODY... what that sort of fuckwit deserves is her getting the hell OUT... not giving him another reason to beat her shitless when he finds out about the cheating.... you are so het up on DEFENDING cheating, that you lack the perception that if she is cheating ... she is still THERE to get the crap beaten out of her!!!



This thread really isn't about abusers - and yes obviously she needs to get out ASAP. i gave an example of a type of person who in MY OPINION would be the kind that had it coming - there are times in life that when a chance comes along you take it - to stand by an oath that means nothing to the other person is absurd in my opinion.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 7:31:28 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

This is MY definition of cheating: 

Any activity engaged in to willfully secure the affections of another with the intent of abandoning your present partner. 

Then that should have been made clear in the first place, because most people( ie the majority) define cheating as lying to someone or to yourself, or willfully witholding information.  That can be anything from having an affair, to masturbating in the bathroom.
 
Nowhere in your above statement does it say there is any lying or misrepresentation of the facts.  That isn't cheating, it is simply a situation that occurs with or without cheating.
 
Peace



Ok, but eventually, those little questions of "Where are you going?" or "What did you do today?" or "Who were you talking to?" are bound to come up.

I am not entirely sure what you mean by your response - but if I have assumed correctly then if those questions arise and you answer them completely and fully without being afraid to answer - how is that cheating?  Personally, I take it that those questions would of already been discussed first if you are simply expanding your relationship seperately in a consensual discussion.
 
Peace


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: The Need to Know - 5/24/2007 7:35:16 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
But no one has it 'coming' velvet - two wrongs do not make a right.
 
If an abused woman meets someone who she suddenly finds she is falling in love with then she should just leave the relationship and be up front with her abuser. (Actually she should leave before she gets invovled but thats another thread) - not use the abuse as an excuse to lie and destroy her own integrity and respect.
 
Peace


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 80
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