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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/24/2007 9:24:23 PM   
sadomasokisti


Posts: 221
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Iceland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Masque66

The trouble comes partly from definition of 'hard limit' I think.  Some subs will place anything they don't like as a hard limit.  Does that seem right?  That the sub sets all the boundaries?

I can't see something as a legitimate hard limit unless it would truly cause intense physical or psychological damage.  You might not be able to make the wheelbarrow carry 500lbs, but unlike wheelbarrows, humans have the capacity to become stronger.  I consider overcoming a previously controlling fear to be a great triumph, and would want to work on those limits, trying to help her get past them.



That is actually the main point.  The sub does actually set all the limits.  It's the essence of consensuality.  Even when the sub decides that he has no limits regarding his Master.  It's the subs decision.

_____________________________


Pain is good. Extreme pain is extremely good

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/24/2007 9:29:24 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Well it's a mutual decision.  Everyone has to agree to make the relationship work.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/24/2007 9:32:31 PM   
LadyPaige


Posts: 187
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Breaching a hard limit is a breach of trust.  I'd dump any Dom I couldn't trust.  Hard limits may over time become soft limits and eventually desired activities, but until the sub/slave takes it off the hard limit list it should be off limits for anything more than discussion or education.

(in reply to Trampler)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/24/2007 9:34:31 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		And I'll add the necessary caveat- doms have limits too.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/24/2007 9:55:34 PM   
adoracat


Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlindDescent

Speaking of psychology...  What happens when pushed limits go badly? We don't talk much about that unpleasantness. Killing and chopping are rare requests (we hope). 


what happens indeed.  i've had panic attacks where i literally couldnt see his face at all, just the face of my abuser, and unlike when the abuse actually happened, i struck him in fear and panic, and damned near injured myself falling off the bed trying to get away from him.  it took me a couple of hours before my heart rate was back to normal, and it was months before i finally stopped having nightmares again.

and that was from him holding me down when i was not in a good frame of mind emotionally and not respecting his need to care for me enough to let me go when i told him that i was starting to panic.  he left bruises on me trying to keep me from falling while i was trying to get away from him, bad enough that my husband expressed concern the next day.  wolf understood when i told him i'd panicked...

Sir scared me badly just playing around one day...he growled and snapped playfully at me.  i was immediately trying to get away from him, and strained an old injury.  and Sir knew, at that point, how hard it is for me on some things.

some hard limits are there because they NEED to be.  some hard limits are there because of fears, and may eventually be talked through and not found to be limits any longer.

kitten, who is difficult and hates it.

(in reply to BlindDescent)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/24/2007 10:15:02 PM   
CitizenCane


Posts: 349
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Looking through these responses it seems clear to me that there are various types of limits, with different reasons for respecting them.  I would categorize them, broadly, as 1) Moral/ethical limits- for instance, most would consider commiting murder a hard limit. 2) Physical safety limits- for instance, a person with a heart condition is probably not a good candidate for cart-horse pony play.  3)  Mental/emotional safety limits- persons with a history of trauma, for instance, have reactions to certain stimuli that are not within their ability to control, and these stimuli may cause further damage. 4) Things that are scary, icky, painful or unpleasant.  It's often difficult to discriminate category 4 from the rest, but it's the one that many dominiants are focused on, as it seems to suggest a resistance to their control. Most subs, on the other hand, are generally referring to one or more of the other three categories when they talk about limits.
I would suggest that as a purely practical matter, no good can come of violating any of the first three kinds of limits. Such actions will almost certainly rebound negatively on the violator.  As for the fourth, it's tempting sometimes to force these boundaries, but doing so requires, both ethically and practically, absolute (and justified) certainty that the dom has correctly categoriezed the limit, and that violating it will not itself transform the limit into one of the first three types.  This kind of assurance is hard to come by in the real world.



(in reply to adoracat)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/24/2007 10:42:28 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

Master pushed one of my very hard limits, I still think of that day as the day I became his slave really and truly. I didn't and dont see him as abusive./

I guess it depends on the person.


I think pushing a hard limit with the purpose of furthering one's surrender or slavery is quite different from breaking it in punishment or vendication. I encountered a dom once whose policy was to break a hard limit of his sub's if she did something that pissed him off that badly. To me, that's bullshit. If someone has a hard limit of needles then maybe I will see if I can ever get him past that for my own enjoyment and perhaps even his. It is thrilling to me to be able to have someone agree to let me do something to him that truly scares him. But is that the same as tying down a guy and sticking 200 needles into him because he disobeyed? Not at all. I think that traumatizing him, and yes, having a hard limit broken, not pushed, but broken, can be very traumatizing indeed, is not an effective means of behavior modification. You do that kind of thing and you lose someone's trust. The dom in question lost all of my trust and respect when I learned of his theories of hard limit breaking punishment.

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- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to slavejali)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/24/2007 10:44:31 PM   
Masque66


Posts: 185
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline 		Actually that's a great way to organize them.  And I agree that the first three must be handled very carefully.  Though if the sub desires it, I have to believe that the third can be worked on and perhaps even overcome.  Moral boundaries can sometimes fluctuate, but it would be hard for someone who's believed in taht boundary to do it and not feel personally soiled.  And of course health limits might never be overcome.

But icky limits? (I like that term) They feel more inhibitory than anything else.  Those are the ones I would want to work on most enthusiastically.

(in reply to CitizenCane)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/24/2007 11:07:31 PM   
adoracat


Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Masque66

Actually that's a great way to organize them.  And I agree that the first three must be handled very carefully.  Though if the sub desires it, I have to believe that the third can be worked on and perhaps even overcome.  Moral boundaries can sometimes fluctuate, but it would be hard for someone who's believed in taht boundary to do it and not feel personally soiled.  And of course health limits might never be overcome.

But icky limits? (I like that term) They feel more inhibitory than anything else.  Those are the ones I would want to work on most enthusiastically.


emotional limits can be overcome, absolutely.  but it takes a LOT of work, patience, and dare i say it....love.  on both parts.

kitten

(in reply to Masque66)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/24/2007 11:25:57 PM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		See hard limits to me are not negotiable, do not change, and are not something I will allowed to be pushed at. Hard means just that not chngable not negotiable.  Other wise if they were changable they'd be soft limits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadomasokisti

Limits do evolve and change over time.  I look at some hard limits as boundaries that can be poked carefully and even pushed,


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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 1:03:15 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		I think that's the most concise description of limits I've seen. *Hats off to You Cane!*

For Me, a hard limit is highly unlikely to change over time ... so it generally fits into categories 1-3. Where it comes to category 4, My idea is to find a sub/slave who thinks the same things are "icky" as I do ... eg I have no interest in scat play and don't want a sub who thinks that's the best fun! So finding one with compatible "icky" limits is the way to go. However, if a sub says something like "i'm scared of fire play, i don't think i'd like it" then to Me that's a soft limit. I certainly wouldn't be pushing that early on, but maybe once W/we have built a high level of mutual trust I would raise it for discussion and show that I have been trained how to do it safely and explain exactly how I would go about it and ask if they are interested in giving it a try. Or would they like to see it done to someone else (or if feasible, for Me to demonstrate it on Myself first!). Some of these scary things actually end up being almost anticlimactic when they're actually done because the perceived potential pain is far worse than the actual resultant pain. (That's half the fun of course!). But if they still said no, then that's no and I respect that. It's not really going to be the end of My Dominant world if I can't do fire play on them!

I agree entirely with DominaSmartass in that I would NEVER break a hard limit as "punishment", that is abuse of trust in My book unless the slave, in their negotiations prior to accepting Ownership by that Master/Mistress, had agreed to that potentiality and fully understood that to be a consequence of disobedience. I still don't think much of it as a training method even if that was the understanding though.

Maam Jay

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(in reply to CitizenCane)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 1:55:06 AM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
quote:

I encountered a dom once whose policy was to break a hard limit of his sub's if she did something that pissed him off that badly. To me, that's bullshit.


Yeah, that would be bullshit to me too. I think if Master did that to me in punishment it would have turned bad really quickly.

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"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 2:11:42 AM   
sadomasokisti


Posts: 221
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Iceland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FelinePersuasion

See hard limits to me are not negotiable, do not change, and are not something I will allowed to be pushed at. Hard means just that not chngable not negotiable.  Other wise if they were changable they'd be soft limits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadomasokisti

Limits do evolve and change over time.  I look at some hard limits as boundaries that can be poked carefully and even pushed,



I should have put "Limits do often evolve and change over time".  My mistake. 

Hard limits are not soft limits if we allow them to be changeable.  When the sub (and the dom, thanks LuckyAlbatross) make the decision to put something on the hard limits list, they do that for a reason.
In many cases as relationships grow and evolve, we learn more things, and see more things, we might decide we would like to give it a try.  It could also be that I would like to make my Mistress happy by doing thing that I really hate for her enjoyment.

Hard limits should always be respected, but they can be poked (carefully) and discussed.

Everybody tells new subs that everyone (well almost) has a limit. We even encourage them to fill out questionnaires with various activities.  In most cases the new sub will come across items on the list that they have no interest in and cant even think of doing.  And almost everyone here would not encourage new sub to try extreme needle play, hangings or serious breath-control on their first scene.  After their first few sessions and play-party they might realize that they would like to try things that were on the no-no list.  It could also be after a successful therapy or a mind blowing orgasm.  I don't know.

_____________________________


Pain is good. Extreme pain is extremely good

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 2:22:18 AM   
Copulo


Posts: 268
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

What on earth makes you think that all limits are simply fears?


Yep, its called sexual repulsion and although an internal fantasy can often be a repugnant one, its not one that many people desire to do in rl and so becomes a ‘hard limit’.

Lucky Albatross is right when she says dominants have limits too.

I had a particular fem sub that knew I was totally and utterly turned off by age play. If that is something that I refuse to do under any circumstances then it is ‘my hard limit’. She went about trying to break that limit by becoming more and more juvenile every time we were together. The result of trying to break my limit ended up with me being so turned off by her that I no longer desired her.
Breaking certain limits is the quickest way to lose a sexual longing for that particular person.

(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 2:32:53 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		Many years ago a married couple was arrested for the rape and murder of several young women and teens.  It started when the Husband wanted to rape the wife's vigin UM sister.  The wife helped by giving her sister animal sedative which accidentially killed the sister.  But that wasn't a deterrant, the wife continued to procure more young females for her Husband's pleasure which included murder.

Now, should the wife (i tend to assume she was slave) be applauded as being the epitome of the excellent no-limits slave?  Where there are NO limits we as human beings could never have a society, community or security.

my HARD limits have never been about specific activities, but rather about consequences and phsychological harm is a consequence i am not willing to have pushed.  Neither is anything where death (mine or anyone else's) is a likely outcome, where a prison term (mine or anyone else's) is a likely outcome, and where permanent phyisical or psychological damage is a likely outcome. 


_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to Masque66)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 2:51:24 AM   
SanDieganMichael


Posts: 56
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CitizenCane

Looking through these responses it seems clear to me that there are various types of limits, with different reasons for respecting them.  I would categorize them, broadly, as 1) Moral/ethical limits- for instance, most would consider commiting murder a hard limit. 2) Physical safety limits- for instance, a person with a heart condition is probably not a good candidate for cart-horse pony play.  3)  Mental/emotional safety limits- persons with a history of trauma, for instance, have reactions to certain stimuli that are not within their ability to control, and these stimuli may cause further damage. 4) Things that are scary, icky, painful or unpleasant.  It's often difficult to discriminate category 4 from the rest, but it's the one that many dominiants are focused on, as it seems to suggest a resistance to their control. Most subs, on the other hand, are generally referring to one or more of the other three categories when they talk about limits.
I would suggest that as a purely practical matter, no good can come of violating any of the first three kinds of limits. Such actions will almost certainly rebound negatively on the violator.  As for the fourth, it's tempting sometimes to force these boundaries, but doing so requires, both ethically and practically, absolute (and justified) certainty that the dom has correctly categoriezed the limit, and that violating it will not itself transform the limit into one of the first three types.  This kind of assurance is hard to come by in the real world.






Superbly written, well defined and well spoken (typed anyways). I’d like to think on one of my good days I could have put this so succinctly.

(in reply to CitizenCane)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 3:19:57 AM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		Even on a good day I couldn't have put it so well. Well done all.

(in reply to SanDieganMichael)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 3:34:38 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		Haven't read the thread yet, just responding direct to the OP:

I see a lot of situations where frankly, from MY perspective, the whole issue of limits is handled badly and leads to 'problems' like the one you mentioned in the other thread.

(Insert standard proviso that if what you have works for you, good, not knocking that just speaking from MY perspective and why what works for ME works)

Much of the time I see the sub setting her own limits and thinking in terms of "What I don't like goes in 'hard limits' and what I might like but aren't sure of goes in soft limits"

Firstly that way of thinking and working goes against what I see limits as being there for AND as you may have guessed by the wording, it isn't the sub that should be setting the limits anyhow......

When people start to see 'hard limits' as something that just means "Dont like", they start to view them as things that can be pushed, as simply a preffrence to be changed.

To Me I view a 'Hard limit' as something I set FOR a girl when I see that something would cause her HARM, like or dislike doesn't enter into it..... its about harm, not just physical but mental and emotional harm too. That means it is a NO GO area... I don't HARM what is Mine! Hard limit = you don't go there!

Some may have problems with the fact *I* set the limits.... it works best that way.... I am not caught up with a 'need to please' getting in the way. I am not worried about "Oh if I set too many hard limits He will see Me as a bad slave", all *I* am focused on is spotting what things maybe harmful, discussing them with her, watching her reactions till I am sure.... however many I have at the end THAT is how many where needed.

ALSO with it being MY responcibility rather than hers, it is upto Me to continualy keep an eye open for signs of something that I've missed or that is new. I don't have the COP-OUT of "Well you didn't list it as a hard limit".

It stops it being about LISTS and keeps it focused where it should be.... on avoiding causing her HARM.

My girl could honestly say she has no limits.... because the needed limits are in the relationship and are in effect MINE, rather than hers.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Trampler)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 3:54:07 AM   
aSlavesLife


Posts: 347
Joined: 12/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leakylee

i have a question in all of this reguards. does anyone really think that someone that would actually comtemplate chopping your leg off, or killing you, or involving um's are really going to respect limits? if they are mentally defective enough to want to injure another human in this manner, what in all hells would make them give two shits less about another's overall health and wellbeing??

just curious.

lee



Lee, I totally agree with you on this one. It really amazes me how every time a 'limits' thread surfaces, all the ignorant sheep come out in herds blaring on their megaphones about "loss of limb",  "murder" and all the other asinine crap their fantastical minds conjure up.  This all becomes a moot point if you pick your owner wisely and not some schmuck out of a funny farm. I would hope people are intelligent enough to realize when someone is not playing with a full deck. In regards to someone snapping as in their mental health, I would think most people would be smart enough to know when someone is not of sound mind and in need of psychiatric help.  Most sane, intelligent people would not even fathom putting themselves or another's life in such a position but if a person can't distinguish the sane from insane then they have much bigger problems than their "hard limits" negotiations. 
 
As for "chipping away" at a subs soul, well not everyone believes in souls since it can't technically be proven but everyones entitled to their own moral views.  Maybe you mean "chipping away" at another's personality and over all mental wellbeing which is more plausible since everyone has a personality and a brain. There are those that like so called "brainwashing"  and manipulation to deepen and enhance their thought process. You know when your Owner uses his mental tentacles to rewire the traits that might not be to his liking or detrimental to your person. In fact some thrive on that form of control. I don't see your "chipping " as a bad thing at all. Instead I see it as a enhancement, almost like an internal makeover or a much needed tuneup.
 
I gave up my rights and decision making to a higher power, my Owner. Not once did I ever discuss limits with him before I moved here to live in his household.  I never discussed it with my first owner either. In fact I never knew there was such a term until I went online some three years ago.  My Owner considers me his property and I have complete trust in him to do what is best for my over all mental and physical health. He has the right to test any boundaries he so chooses and so far with all the "limit" testing both my previous and present Owners have done to me,  no psychological damage has ever been done. I would say I'm a much stronger person for it.  The strength comes from way deep inside knowing I did something I never would have done on my own purely to satisfy my Owner's desires, regardless if I liked it or not. An example would be that I don't like women and would never on my own have sexual relations with one but if my Owner wants me to, I will and have done so in the past for my previous Owner. I hated every minute of it, in fact I despised it but I had no ill psychological effects from doing what my Owner told me to do.  Another would be having my head shaved when I was 22 yrs old by my previous owner. Of course I cried but guess what, I got over it quickly and there wasn't any breakdowns. My present Owner hung up on my mom and refused to let her have our phone number as well as the rest of my family. He had his reasons for doing what he did and it's not my place to question him as to why he cut me off from them.  My Owner does whatever he wants, whenever he wants regardless of if I like it or not because he is my Owner. I have given my life over to him because I trust him. Had I'd been so worried about "limits" I would never have moved in with him in the first place.
 
-slave L
 
 

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(in reply to leakylee)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 4:06:38 AM   
CDOM3


Posts: 15
Joined: 2/22/2007
Status: offline 		In the orginal post, the hard limit refered to was for a sub. For a submissive, there are and will be limits and hard limits.
A hard limit, if crossed, could do harm to the psychology of the submissive, be it physical, mental or emotional.
A limit for a submissive is the extent of his/her experience and desire in pleasing and serving. To test a limit is to give a better understanding to the submissive of his/her self.

In slavery there is the hard limit of Trust and Responsibility. The contract is voided when either party, Master or slave, breaks the hard limit of either Trust or Responsibility.

It is impossible to define a limit or hard limit that would be acceptable to all.
A hard limit be it in submission or slavery is simply that, a hard limit to be known and Respected.  

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 60
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